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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
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And I thought your previous post
was ridiculous!
Baja's History according to David K's research, by foreigners who think that all indigenous are either stupid or dead.
I'm trying to be nice David but the nonsense you continue to spew makes it very difficult.
Because they were Injuns, and didn't write down their stories in books, although they did by other means, (they didn't have Bic pens yet I guess) is
considered insignificant?
First, a little history for DK. There were quite a few places in Baja, where these dumb Injuns used to congregate. This is because there was water.
There still is.
The Injuns didn't like condos, (too confining and not that cold anyway) so they didn't do a lot of construction. I know what they did do though, in
fact I even know some living walking evidence of this fornication by these savages. They are good cowboys!
So, these Injuns did like to explore, live in caves, find food, tell stories and fornicate. hmmmmm. Go figger! Some of these stories are still
written on rocks, many are still told by their descendants.
Water was fairly scarce then so development began. Spear making, baskets, all kinds of useful businesses sprang up, all around water. Necessary even
for dumb Injuns !
Not all of these communities were discovered by the european perverts so not all of them had missions built. In fact, I have been to two of these
areas and have yet to go to a third I know of. They are full of evidence of a past civilization which had nothing to do with europeans.
There are writings, caves, etc. that have never been disturbed and the folks that live in these areas would love to roast someone over a spit who
would contest their history which was handed down thoughout the generations.
I don't know what I would have told you about San Luis but I wouldn't believe a word of anything I said to you about history in specific locations
David. Remember, loose lips and GPS coordinates on the internet?
So anyway, long before those strange ships, there were thriving communities in most all parts of Baja. Same as in the u.s. before those P-nche ships
showed up. The people were happy, sometimes they warred, usually not, ate peyote, had rituals, danced a lot, minded their own business and made
things.
All around water and the lifeblood of any civizilation. I think perhaps the invaders weren't so into chasing Injuns through this desert so they
concentrated on the communities where they didn't have to run so far. Ojos de Agua to be exact.
I guess they weren't that dumb, just lazy after all that hiking in the desert.
If anyone is interested in some real info. from some people that actually know of what they speak, 1st hand, I have maps for sale.
I'll post some pics again.
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
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Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
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Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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I agree with you jrbaja. most of my time is spent exploring the early Baja Indians . I don't wast my time on the Spanish destroyers.
please if you know of such sites don't sell maps they will be ruined in a short time.
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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David K
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The Indians are dead JR... so the Mexicans can't tell you from personal or handed down legends how it was before the Europeans came (who actually
wrote things we can read today).
Yes, there is water in Baja and yes, the Indians were there first... Their cave art, bones, sleeping circles, hunting blinds are proof of that...
Much of that can be studied and has been.
The missions were often built AT Indian villages (called 'rancherias' by the padres)... because THAT is where the water was.. duh?! Idon't understand
you stating the obvious... I never said the missions came BEFORE the Indians... The missions were put there because the Indians were already there!
When you go way back into the hills looking for new varieties of bamboo and speak to those ranch folks, do you think you are speaking to someone who
even knew a Cochimi, Guaycura or Pericu personally? Even in tiny San Francisco de la Sierra (home of some of the oldest Arce and Villavicencio family
clans), they can only story tell back to when the Spanish came.
I am really interested on how the new Mexicans (post mission era) can have personal knowledge of what it was like before they or their ancestors came
to Baja??? That is unless they have read books and spent time in libraries and museums...
There is nothing wrong in liking Baja's pre mission history... I like it too! I also like the mission era, and the post mission mining era, and even
the pre pavement rancho era!
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MrBillM
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Dead and Gone
The Backward and unachieving Aborigines of Baja lost out to a Superior and more innovative race from another continent. End of story. That is the
way of the world. Superior intellect triumphs.
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
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Location: Sunset Beach
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Frank/Diver
Frank, If you want to give me a call and come by the house I have Baja HaHa and the Grinning Gargoyle I'll sell you with all proceeds going to the
widows of these wonderful authors. I would enjoy talking to you again.
Diver, All four books are in the mail and they should make those Washington winters a bit warmer with fun stories of our Baja.
Thanks to both of you.
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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jrbaja
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Superior Intellect
Greed and a sexual preference for little boys! Impressive so far.
David, again, you do not have a clue. There were many who survived religion. They just didn't post coordinates of their whereabouts.
There are some really good stories about that in some Mexican jounals as well as the fact that some of the families have indeginious blood..
Personally I believe them, rather than some foreigner pretending to know Mexicos history.
Besides, they have unique physical characteristics. Perhaps they had plastic surgery and are faking it. And Erle found out about his arrowheads and
caves from the gringo gazzoot rather than local knowledge I'll bet.
Because to be believed, it has to be written down, in english!
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Bajaboy
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JR-are you trying to educate us as to Baja's past or simply put down DK?
Now, I wonder what label history will put on us...the new invaders....as we rape and pillage the land and sea and the people....that includes you JR.
Zac
[Edited on 10-13-2005 by Bajaboy]
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Barry A.
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Most of what JR says on this thread is pure speculation------
not backed up by any known written history-----to the contrary, the written history paints a much different picture than what JR wishes us to believe.
The cave paintings tell us practically nothing-----mostly they have yet to be interpreted, and any attempt is pure speculation.
What David K writes is essentially backed up by what historians and participants have written down. Is it true???? Again, we can only speculate, but I
tend to accept it more than the heresay by folks that are so removed from "those days" that their credibility has to be questioned, at the very least,
even tho theY may be sincere.
What JR seems to believe that David K said, is just not what he said, and JR has twisted David's writings to such an extent as to wonder who he is
talking about.
The personnel narritives of those who spent time amongst the "Injuns" paints a vastly different picture than what JR believes, and what he would have
us "except" as truth, in his constant attempt to discredit David K. Read a little of the Narritive of Cabeza de Vaca who, with compadres, spent
several years among the Injuns from Florida to Mexico, as a fugitive of a Florida ship wreck. Read the narritive of the Oatman Girls who spent
several years among the Mojave Indians in S. California. These are just two of many narritives. They paint a pretty horrid picture of the state of the
North American Indians in the SW USA, vastly different from the picture that JR is painting.
The Spaniard's did some pretty horrific things to the native populations, that is not contested. Lets face it, things were rough back then, and very
primitive, and the strong survived.
All aspects of what history has to teach us is "important", to my way of thinking, if we wish to even have an inkling of what actually went on.
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eetdrt88
Senior Nomad
Posts: 986
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Location: Az/Ca/Baja
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i just ordered Baja Haha...
from amazon for 95 cents...they had Bernies book to,but for about the same price as he sells it so i'll probably just order it from him...i'm
wondering if anyone knows where you can get a copy of Ray Cannons book for a decent price or at least less than 35$??
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Frank
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Mood: Is it time to leave yet?
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I would rather give my money to Fred and Jimmy widows. But thats just me. I still wish I would of said Hi to Jimmy @ Verdugos, I hate being bashful,
wont happen again.
Bernie, I'll give you a call. Frank
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Neal Johns
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eetdrt88,
Ray Cannon's Sea of Cortez cheap:
[url]http://makeashorterlink.com/?I6C9118FB[url]
[url]http://makeashorterlink.com/?K4B9218FB[url]
My motto:
Never let a Dragon pass by without pulling its tail!
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
Posts: 2962
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: Sunset Beach
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Frank/Diver
Sylvia Hoctor and Dona Guadalupe del Socorro Romero Lopez de Smith say--thank you.
Remembering Don Jimmy--"Jim Smith could start a conversation with a dead dog" Mark Willis
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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jrbaja
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Really now?
Personally, I thought this could be a very good debate. David and I have briefly had this disagreement before, as well as other people from both sides
of the theories.
Seems more to me like the DK groupies are just there to protect their Baja history "all knowing king" rather than provide any facts.
The reality is, the Mexican people believe something entirely different than what the gringos have to say about their past. And so do I. And so do
the u.s. indigenous about what has been written about them.
I have talked to many of the people down here, including historians, the people who live around these areas, and one of the last descendants of the
Indigenous in Baja. Yep, they are still around and if you get far enough away from the tourist areas, there is quite a bit of evidence.
Last night, there was a show on the Amazons. Yep, those big ol girls from around the same period. DNA records connected some of the living people
in the wilds of Russia to graves holding female warriors thought to be from this tribe.
And it's a lot easier to survive in Baja than the harshness of Russia.
But, now that Bernie has decided it is worth it, I will start a different thread so as not to clutter this one. And I gotta say, Bernie has the
most unique way of titling and starting threads that I have ever seen.
[Edited on 10/13/2005 by jrbaja]
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wilderone
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"...lost out to a Superior and more innovative race"
???????????
LOST OUT? The Spaniards brought the disease which wiped them out, dumchit. Superior? Innovative? Their intentions were to rob, enslave, rape and
take their land - all in the name of God and the queen, i.e., greed.
And as you must know - because you're so superior -- more than once the natives drove away some of the earliest explorers with successful attacks,
thereby holding their own for many years in spite of the "superior" european weaponry. The Spaniards considered Baja shores a wasteland and didn't
know how to survive without the natives' assistance.
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
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Sheesh
and I thought gay robbers were bad!
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Barry A.
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Pomp----that is heavy stuff-----
but as I said, "I do not contest that the treatment of the native peoples by the Spanish was horrific". It was!!!!
But to then make the "leap" of faith that the native peoples of Baja and the Southwest USA were all sweetness and light is hard for me to swallow,
also. Perhaps that is not what you were even saying----our perceptions and interpretations sometimes get us all screwed up.
Like I said to JR on a separate thread (wrong thread by mistake) the truth probably lies somewhere in between, but I still believe that we should take
a look at all sides, and hopefully learn something (how is that for optimism).
I personally think that the Spaniards were just greedy and oportunistic, using religion as an excuse----but that is just my feeling.
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jrbaja
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Barry
Even the toughest of us gringos have seen the hospitalty of the Baja natives. They constantly sing, would give you the shirt off their backs, insist
on you staying just a little longer or having that one more tamal.
Do you think this attitude came from the conquistadores or the native populations that they bred with?
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jrbaja
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Were they doing that to each other
on a regular basis? Or did they get upset about something?
As far as u.s. history goes, I just recently learned of a ruins/civilization in the u.s. that was comparable to the Aztecs down south.
I believe there is a lot that we are about to find out in spite of what "written history" had to tell us.
And I'm pretty sure it won't be pretty!
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Barry A.
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Jr--------agree with you 100% on the rural folks of Baja CA. Where their "attitude" came from???? if I knew that I would bottle it and surge ahead of
Bill Gates as the richest man in North America. (evidence that I am a greedy Gringo)
It certainly did not come from the conquistadores-----a degenerate bunch of oportunists and misfits who were adventurers, and greedy beyond
belief-----and you know, I have very little idea why they were that way, either-----products of their environment, I suppose.
All speculation.
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jrbaja
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a degenerate bunch of oportunists and misfits who were adventurers,
Sounds like our crew sailing around the South China Sea on a 3 masted schooner!
I may post some stories in the off topic as we actually scared off some pirates during this adventure.
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