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willardguy
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Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  | | Quote: Originally posted by KurtG | | Quote: Originally posted by bajafam |
Sounds like a derogatory term made up by Southern Californians.
In Arizona, we consider ourselves Arizonans.
Tribal members often times refer to their respective Nations. |
The only place I have heard "Zonies" is in the San Diego beach areas where in late summer about half the license plates seem to be from Arizona.
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I wish the Zonies would stay home and stop crowding our local (San Diego) beaches...
Build THE WALL along the the Colorado river! |
I wish San Diegan's would stay home and stop crowding our local(baja) beaches!
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BajaMama
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Humanity is evolving - to erase the past is wrong, as is vilifying those who behaved in accordance with their place in history. Current society tends
to interpret the past through evolved eyes and IMHO that is just wrong. I choose to appreciate the humanitarian steps we have taken forward and the
lessons we learned from what we now know was wrong and inhumane in the past.
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motoged
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Removing some historical artifacts doesn't necessarily "erase the past"....but may create a different context for the article(s)....
Yes ....we need to understand history....and hopefully learn from it...
Not a lot of statues honouring A. Hitler are dotting public places....but there is certainly a lot of knowledge acknowledging his place in history....
Unfortunately, there are those who will glorify the inglorious...
Don't believe everything you think....
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David K
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| Quote: Originally posted by BajaMama | | Humanity is evolving - to erase the past is wrong, as is vilifying those who behaved in accordance with their place in history. Current society tends
to interpret the past through evolved eyes and IMHO that is just wrong. I choose to appreciate the humanitarian steps we have taken forward and the
lessons we learned from what we now know was wrong and inhumane in the past. |
Well said BajaMama.
How does removing old things make history change? History is what happened, good and bad... learn from it. If someone gets their feeling hurt because
a bell causes them to think about something bad that they read, well Buttercup, life is going to be a rough ride for you! LOL
As a history author, I do not write about the missions because I supported anything they did. I write about them because they existed. They are a fact
of history and we can see many of them to this day. The decorative bells along California's Highway 101 and El Camino Real route were the idea of Mrs.
Forbes in 1906. Women's groups in California preserved the mission history so it would not be lost to the elements.
You can't learn from history if you remove the history!
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motoged
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It doesn't change history....but may help us understand it differently. Don't be threatened by critical thinking....
noun: critical thinking
the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment.
Don't believe everything you think....
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Skipjack Joe
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Why remove just the bells? Remove the missions, which were the source of the injustice. But that's not enough either. Remove Catholicism, for the
missionaries came to spread the word of God. And so on.
History is a recording of a series of conquests from the beginnings of man. Each conquest brings new cultural values and keeps some old ones. The
Celts don't request that everything be removed on the United Kingdom for the last 2000 years because they were there originally.
I say keep the bells. Yes there was injustice. It's time to move on. Removing the bells won't right the wrong, which is what they really want. The
symbols of the conquest are everywhere. The removal of cultural symbols can be endless. At some point it's time to accept and adapt.
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AKgringo
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Wishful thinking; A verb modified by an adverb.....often mistaken for "critical thinking".
Ged. I hope your sense of humor is still intact! 
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space!
"Could do better if he tried!" Report card comments from most of my grade school teachers. Sadly, still true!
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caj13
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | | Quote: Originally posted by BajaMama | | Humanity is evolving - to erase the past is wrong, as is vilifying those who behaved in accordance with their place in history. Current society tends
to interpret the past through evolved eyes and IMHO that is just wrong. I choose to appreciate the humanitarian steps we have taken forward and the
lessons we learned from what we now know was wrong and inhumane in the past. |
Well said BajaMama.
How does removing old things make history change? History is what happened, good and bad... learn from it. If someone gets their feeling hurt because
a bell causes them to think about something bad that they read, well Buttercup, life is going to be a rough ride for you! LOL
As a history author, I do not write about the missions because I supported anything they did. I write about them because they existed. They are a fact
of history and we can see many of them to this day. The decorative bells along California's Highway 101 and El Camino Real route were the idea of Mrs.
Forbes in 1906. Women's groups in California preserved the mission history so it would not be lost to the elements.
You can't learn from history if you remove the history! |
Just to be clear, I for one never advocated removing the Bells. I instead called for the addition of large signs and historical locations that
INCLUDE the statistics of native americans enslaved, and killed! Lets tell the whole story - Killed because their God was not as important as the
spaniards god!
I vote we all chip in to put up a big bronze statue of Hitler in Davids front yard! He ought to be honored to be part of honoring and preserving that
history!
[Edited on 7-4-2019 by caj13]
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motoged
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| Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo | Wishful thinking; A verb modified by an adverb.....often mistaken for "critical thinking".
Ged. I hope your sense of humor is still intact! |
Gary,
Yep....it's intact.....and waiting for something funny....
Give Bailey a hug for me....
Don't believe everything you think....
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JoeJustJoe
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| Quote: Originally posted by caj13 |
Just to be clear, I for one never advocated removing the Bells. I instead called for the addition of large signs and historical locations that
INCLUDE the statistics of native americans enslaved, and killed! Lets tell the whole story - Killed because their God was not as important as the
spaniards god!
I vote we all chip in to put up a big bronze statue of Hitler in Davids front yard! He ought to be honored to be part of honoring and preserving that
history!
[Edited on 7-4-2019 by caj13] |
So well said, Caj13, but I say all those kinds of symbols of hate that are about Hitler, Robert E Lee, the El Camino Bell, and other even people or
symbols be removed from public places, where they often give a false impression of something positive about history and moved to a place like a
museum where those hate symbols or persons can get a proper view in their correct historical context of hate.
Some of those early missions that are too hard to relocate should be made into a small memorials and museum similar to Auschwitz to let the world know
what really happened to the genocide of the native population of Indians.
I'm not naming names but there are probably some here on "Baja Nomad" that are confused that believe what the Spanish priests did to the indigenous
Indians in early California, and Mexico, was overall beneficial to the Indians the same way some believe slavery was good for blacks in America.
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David K
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It happened. Preserving history is not giving a pass to atrocities. However, as one who was interested in getting the facts rather than just go along
with your groupthink, you need to direct your anger on the government of Spain in the 1700s for how they demanded what was done, particularly after
they removed the Jesuits.
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motoged
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And....your "groupthink" is....?
Some here are not suggesting removing history....just accurately reporting it....
And history is not just about conquests as another Nomad said....it's about what happened....."conquests" always have the vanquished
Don't believe everything you think....
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BajaRat
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Mood: Ready for some salt water with my Tecate
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| Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666 | | Quote: Originally posted by KurtG | | Quote: Originally posted by bajafam |
Sounds like a derogatory term made up by Southern Californians.
In Arizona, we consider ourselves Arizonans.
Tribal members often times refer to their respective Nations. |
The only place I have heard "Zonies" is in the San Diego beach areas where in late summer about half the license plates seem to be from Arizona.
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I wish the Zonies would stay home and stop crowding our local (San Diego) beaches...
Build THE WALL along the the Colorado river! |
That's the entitled attitude that has driven many of us away
from California.
With supremacist ideas and statements like that you have brought this conversation
back around to what is at the root of this post. Covetousness, when self-entitled,
self-important people feel their beliefs give them rights over others possesions
and souls. Amazing how we make crap up to suit our own narrative.
Silly Rabbits, Tricks are for Kids. You Hypocrites have lost your world travel privileges
Stay home and enjoy Your Filthy Beaches !
Lionel 
[Edited on 7-4-2019 by BajaRat]
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JoeJustJoe
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | | It happened. Preserving history is not giving a pass to atrocities. However, as one who was interested in getting the facts rather than just go along
with your groupthink, you need to direct your anger on the government of Spain in the 1700s for how they demanded what was done, particularly after
they removed the Jesuits. |
The question is whose rose-colored glasses are you looking through to get your so-called facts?
I would bet the farm you aren't getting any of your information from native Indian sources but mostly you are looking at one-sided accounts from such
things as diaries of the priests, who admit they are not perfect, and maybe admit to some abuse and evil thoughts, which later they punished
themselves with self-flagellation, which is really sick sado-masochism, but overall they believe they are doing the work of God.
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe |
Some of those early missions that are too hard to relocate should be made into a small memorials and museum similar to Auschwitz to let the world know
what really happened to the genocide of the native population of Indians.
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You're out of your mind.
Comparing a church to Auschwitz? What's wrong with you. No Mexican I know, those you purport to support, would agree with that.
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SFandH
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But genocide might be the correct term. The young state of CA in the 1850s paid a bounty on Indians. Of course, bringing into town a bunch of dead
bodies to collect your reward was difficult so scalps and heads were accepted, easier to transport. Spaniards, then Mexicans, and finally Americans
wiped these folks out. The missions were the beginning of the end.
I understand the survivor's descendant's bitterness.
[Edited on 7-4-2019 by SFandH]
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JoeJustJoe
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| Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe |
You're out of your mind.
Comparing a church to Auschwitz? What's wrong with you. No Mexican I know, those you purport to support, would agree with that.
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Skipjack Joe, the church we are talking about was not Sunday School, for the natives.
Oh no don't bring up some of those Jewish and right-wing attacks, for daring to use a Auschwitz, to compare what the priests did to the natives. I
doubt any Mexican would care about my comparison.
They tried to do that to Ocasio-Cortez, when she compared the migrants camps in the US to concentration camps in Germany.
I have never seen such fake outrage in my life, and Ocasio-Cortez, made a good comparison when we see locked up migrants women and children forced
to drink toilet water in those cages the US Government put up for the migrants.
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David K
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Again, the evil is with government (California state to Spanish kingdom) and not so much the religious men who wanted to improve life and bring more
into the faith. Especially true of the Jesuits over those who replaced them.
Right or wrong by today's standards, but I only am trying to accurately report on the known history and not cherry-pick parts of it for some kind of
political outcome.
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MrBillM
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So Sad !
Too bad.
It was wrong, but they're gone.
While we ponder events back yonder ................ those hacked and sacked won't be back.
And those to blame have ended their game.
Why make such a fuss ? It's the past and it ain't us.
They're all dead. Put it to bed.
Tóg go bog é.
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caj13
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | Again, the evil is with government (California state to Spanish kingdom) and not so much the religious men who wanted to improve life and bring more
into the faith. Especially true of the Jesuits over those who replaced them.
Right or wrong by today's standards, but I only am trying to accurately report on the known history and not cherry-pick parts of it for some kind of
political outcome. |
Cut the crap David, give us some credit, you proclaiming that you are not "cherry - Picking for some Political outcome" is completely disingenous
. You know, it , and the rest of us know it too. So climb down off that High Horse, and deal with real facts, and your true bias and motivation.
You understand Hitler considered himself religious, and he was all about making the world a better place, by eliminating people he considered
inferior - right?
Aushwitz is a fitting memorial to WWII. Going there is an experience you will never forget, and it changes your persepective - to the core!
A statue to Hitler is certainly not a fitting memorial!
Warp your mind David - see if you can make the connection!
[Edited on 7-4-2019 by caj13]
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