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PabloS
Nomad
Posts: 187
Registered: 4-8-2003
Location: North central AZ
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ursidae69
One last comment on the rattlesnake kill. The real issue here is the fact that these islands, and the wildlife on them, are protected, period. When
I visited a few of the islands around BOLA in March 05, I had to aquire a permit. My friends and I caught a few of the large chuckwallas that live
there to get a good look at them and we were approached by a ranger. I was with 3 herpetologists and the ranger gave us a break, but warned us at the
wildlife was off-limits to touch.
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When we camped @ Refugio 20 some years ago we killed thousands of "wild" no-seeums, glad we did'nt need no steenkin permits then 
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Pompano
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8194
Registered: 11-14-2004
Location: Bay of Conception and Up North
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Mood: Optimistic
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ursidae69...never fear. My post was in jest and I wrote it before you posted yours. If you knew me, you would know that I live in nature and for
it. Have all my life. Can't imagine not trying to better this planet for the natural things I adore...and I really adore..Rattlesnakes!.... just
long hot dogs, really.
Just kidding!!!
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64832
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Dear Nomads,
I am really happy to see that you all are reading Graham's letters here and that it sparks conversation... However, Graham's writing (about personal
interaction with nature) does a great service to promote the awareness of the natural beauty of Baja.
He DOES eat rattlesnake, and I would bet that the one that could have bitten him made a delicious meal for the man that WALKS all over Baja (and camps
without generators or other pollution causing devices)!
I do worry when people put a poisonous snake in a higher position than a human being on the natural order. I am sure it was so close to being a
danger to Graham's life, that there was not another choice.
Let me ask you this... those noisey pangueros that forced Graham to move to the new spot: Do you have any doubt that they would kill any or all
rattlers that they found in their camp?
Let's not jump to conclussions and hear what Graham has to say about this, as it surely will be described in greater detail in book #4.
Gracias amigos!
[Edited on 3-11-2006 by David K]
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ursidae69
Nomad
Posts: 275
Registered: 2-22-2004
Location: Youngsville, NM
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LOL at PabloS Those noseeums get thick, thank goodness for 100% deet! 
Thanks Pompano, love your photos and jest on Nomad, keep it coming. 
To get back on topic, I just recived my first Graham Mackintosh book a few weeks ago, I need to bump it up my reading list and check it out. Even
though I disagree with what Graham did, it is still cool to be stuck on that island, I'm still jealous!
EDIT: Just saw David's post. David, nobody here is putting venoumous snakes above human life, come on dood, get real. Thanks for posting the
updates though.
[Edited on 3-11-2006 by ursidae69]
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6886
Registered: 10-4-2004
Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
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Kumbaya
When all the poisonous snakes are gone there will be no humans either.
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Pompano
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8194
Registered: 11-14-2004
Location: Bay of Conception and Up North
Member Is Offline
Mood: Optimistic
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bajajudy...then how do you explain Ireland's lack of snakes and preponderance of Guiness drinkers? Hmmmmm........?
[Edited on 3-11-2006 by Pompano]
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6886
Registered: 10-4-2004
Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
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Hey when it comes to Irish drinkers, all bets are off.
signed
judymc
[Edited on 3-11-2006 by bajajudy]
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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Mood: Full Time Residents
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its the "venom" of the bottle in Ireland....
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Not the same as a Grizzly?
Yep, it's ok to kill a dangerous animal if it presents a problem....NOT. Same mentality if say, a black bear or even maybe a cougar or heck an elk or
moose is close to your camp. Geee, isn't their range considerably greater than say that of a rattler on a small island? Your camp may very well be
within many dangerous animals'. Get a grip.
They're damn dangerous up close and personal. They usually know when hunters are near, too bad the snakes don't. Gee, if people just killed them out
of fear why should anyone care,after all, they would be safe! . License or not. PETA or not.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Hook
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9009
Registered: 3-13-2004
Location: Sonora
Member Is Offline
Mood: Inquisitive
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Woo boy!
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Dear Nomads,
I am really happy to see that you all are reading Graham's letters here and that it sparks conversation... However, Graham's writing (about personal
interaction with nature) does a great service to promote the awareness of the natural beauty of Baja.
He DOES eat rattlesnake, and I would bet that the one that could have bitten him made a delicious meal for the man that WALKS all over Baja (and camps
without generators or other pollution causing devices)!
I do worry when people put a poisonous snake in a higher position than a human being on the natural order. I am sure it was so close to being a
danger to Graham's life, that there was not another choice.
Let me ask you this... those noisey pangueros that forced Graham to move to the new spot: Do you have any doubt that they would kill any or all
rattlers that they found in their camp?
Let's not jump to conclussions and hear what Graham has to say about this, as it surely will be described in greater detail in book #4.
Gracias amigos!
[Edited on 3-11-2006 by David K] |
Uh, David......
I'm curious why you would make him out to be some kind of responsible naturalist who is opening the eyes of the world to the natural beauty of Baja.
I'd say his behavior with the snake refutes that completely. I've probably had 15-20 encounters with rattlers and the common thread is their desire to
get the hell outta Dodge, ASAP. A walking stick as a deterrent (not as a bludgeon) is really all that one needs. Zip your tent at night and you're
safe. Remember, these things will let YOU know when you're too close.
Did he really kill and eat rattlers in his treks across the peninsula? There are many ways of getting from point A to B on the peninsula. I cant
fathom that he had more than one situation where the snake HAD TO BE KILLED in a "him or me" scenario.
Are these the traits that put our hero in a "higher position in the natural order?" Or the traits in "....Graham's writing (about personal interaction
with nature) does a great service to promote the awareness of the natural beauty of Baja."
I'd venture to say he's begun to use the snakes for dramatic effect in the books.....or he feels it's something like Alfred Hitchc-ck's cameo
appearances. IMO, it's becoming some kind of ritual.
After all, it's a little difficult to create a man vs. nature drama where there are few dangers......and a panga with supplies or a rescue is just a
radio call away.
I still think this whole thing is falling a bit short of an adventure. Then again, maybe all we're being fed is "the tease." Really, what Graham has
going for him is a non-traditional work schedule (damn, those Mackintosh boys have good gigs!) and an extremely lenient wife. I'm envious, but that's
about it, for me.
Maybe, more than anything, I'm having trouble with the motivation here. The book seems to be wagging the adventure, instead of the other way around. I
feel like I'm witnessing the creation of a book, rather than an adventure. You decide to walk the peninsula with a burro, that's one thing.....
Why, even I'VE managed to predict the plot points.......remember my post on page four of this thread?
C'mon, now, he MUST have earned "immunity" in a competition with that member of the KAYAK tribe he encountered, no? Or did members of the PANGA
tribe come to his aid?
Predicted next episode of Survivor: La Guardia...........SNAKES!!!
Allright, so I hadn't counted on members of the Uncouth Tribe of Pangueros coming along. But they aided him and they willingly moved him. Seems I was
spot on with the snake.
I'm thinking that this now qualifies me for co-writing credits. 
I might as well take a crack at the next couple of episodes. Residuals add up, ya know.
Handlining for Yellowtail: Snakeskin Amulet Works With NGK Sparkplug!
Chuckwalla: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore.
Eating Crow: Early Nemesis Gets His Due......But It Tastes NOTHING Like Chicken 
Close Encounters of the Shark Kind: Foodchain Reality Bites....Almost!
Dances with Dolphins: Yo! Us Mammalia Gotta Stick Together.
Uncouth Tribe of Pangueros Return: Hungry Mammalia Swift-ly Make A Modest Proposal as Winds Limit Harvest!
Yeah, I'm a sarcastic sod. Commercials have always had that effect on me.
But keep 'em coming. It's becoming more entertaining than I expected.
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eetdrt88
Senior Nomad
Posts: 986
Registered: 2-20-2005
Location: Az/Ca/Baja
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I dont feel the need to question...
what Graham did,after reading 2 of his books that are both stories of him wandering around Baja its easy to tell that the guy isnt prone to going
around killing unneccesarily...in fact the impression of him I got is that he has quite a unique relationship with animals ...again I feel this way
after reading his books which gives me some background on Graham,after all the criticism he has received on this thread it seems obvious that most of
the critics have not read any of his books......maybe its like the guy stated above that some are envious or maybe because its just so easy to be a
critic on an internet forum,whatever the reason I think some folks are missing the point of what Graham is doing
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Pompano
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8194
Registered: 11-14-2004
Location: Bay of Conception and Up North
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Mood: Optimistic
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Leaving your comfy living room? Then take note:
Civilization stops at the shoreline....after that we enter the food chain. Are you lunch or a diner?
Hook...you kill me. What a hoot! I am smiling my way to the fridge for some rattlesnake leftovers.
[Edited on 3-12-2006 by Pompano]
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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Mood: Full Time Residents
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we get a couple a year here in upland ca
last year one got in the wallboard in the garage....
Susan and I cut a square out with shovels before we had dinner
just kidding about dinner...susan won't eat snakes...but she did assist with the kill...
if they get in the yard they die...too much danger for the "hot dogs:
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64832
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Hook, my responce is just in place of one Graham cannot give due to his location.
As I told another Nomad who emailed me, comments about Graham's actions are fine (this is a discussion forum afterall)... But don't get all worked up
if I (or others) respond with the other side in Graham's defense.
A rattlesnake bite can be deadly and should get medical treatment... that is not possible where Graham is. I do believe Graham felt he had no choice,
and on the spur of the moment, it is better to go with the choice that insures you will live.
I do think you guys need to appreciate that Graham is even telling us this stuff and not be ragging on him for doing so. That is my opinion...
Now, have a nice day!
[Edited on 3-12-2006 by David K]
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Gypsy Jan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4275
Registered: 1-27-2004
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Mood: Depends on which way the wind is blowing
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I think that the kill/don't kill opinions are great and do apply in a debate.
But, unless you are there, how can you judge the actions of an individual protecting himself?
I've never killed an animal in any situation, but, I probably would defend myself if I thought that was needed.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness.”
—Mark Twain
\"La vida es dura, el corazon es puro, y cantamos hasta la madrugada.” (Life is hard, the heart is pure and we sing until dawn.)
—Kirsty MacColl, Mambo de la Luna
\"Alea iacta est.\"
—Julius Caesar
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cata-vino
Newbie
Posts: 1
Registered: 3-12-2006
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I'm sad to see the judgmental crowd again jumped on some minor details and sullied the man. This is what is wrong with many of these boards. It's
not enough to enjoy the stories and sharing. We have to be judgmental, although most of us have never been in the same situation, or have the same
experience/expertise to make the call. I don't care if you have seen 20 rattlesnakes. When it comes to dealing with the elements in Baja, Graham is
one of the world's experts. I've never met the man but I've read his books, and my opinion has not changed.
He's human, with flaws and fears and instincts of self-preservation. Something he does will not be to everyone's likings. Deal with it. It's called
being tolerant. You are not in his shoes, being days away from the nearest hospital, or see his situation through his eyes on a remote island.
Reading his adventures enriches my days, and it'll be a tragedy if guys like him quit sharing or water down their adventures so much that their
stories begin to read like a Disney movie of the week.
I've driven all over Baja for years and I biked, flown over, boated, kayaked, camped and fish along most of its eastern shore. But seeing other
posters regularly bashed by armchair self-righteous experts, I and quite a few others I know quit sharing. Now, we just go out and enjoy ourselves
and keep things private to ourselves and a few select friends.
Kudos to the Grahams and the David K's (and others) of the world. They have the stomach for it. If you have been around these boards long enough,
you notice guys who come and post some good adventure stories, get bashed for some minor details that offend someone's sensibilities, and you never
hear froom them again.
It's no fun when the joy of sharing is drowned out by the noise of whining.
Oh yes, this is my first post and probably only post. I'm going to put on my shoes, probably made by some child laborer in China, go out and start my
car to put a bigger hole in the ozone layer, and drive the family to Red Lobster for that shrimp dish that my kids love but that have been caught
together with 10lbs of discarded bycatch...but heck, I didn't kill no rattlesnakes this month so I MUST be superior to Graham.
[Edited on 3-13-2006 by cata-vino]
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Fatboy
Senior Nomad
Posts: 746
Registered: 6-28-2005
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I have to read through a lot of unrelated stuff to get to the heart of this thread. While I was dissapointed in Grahams act with the snake, it wasn't
the end of the world.
I think most people agree that killing the snake was not required and whether or not he has a fear of snakes does not justify his action either. As to
the proximity stuff, he said 50 yards didn't he? Hell, for you folks in the suburbs that like 3 houses away. It is not like he opened his tent door
and it was coiled on his boots.
So he was wrong for killing it but it is now done. Unless it was one of the last of it species then we should be O.K. In all fairness though I have
killed about 7 rattlers in my life and 3 of those were eaten. I have also captured another 6 or so and released them unharmed. Therefore, I am not one
to say "Don't kill it!".
There was one in a patch of weeds in Bear River that I almost stepped on while fishing that river for bass one summer. It was about 3 feet long and as
big around as a soda can (beer, for those of you that...) and me and my brother caught it, walked the mile home with it, got yelled at by our parents
and set it free.
So every now and then I will catch a king, garter(yuck) or other snake near our home to show our children before releasing them on our property. I
have yet to see anyone bitten by a rattler or or snake so the danger factor is way overblown. Yes, people do get bit, by dogs, by horses, by spiders
and by snakes but it is very rare.
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
...
Let's not jump to conclussions and hear what Graham has to say about this, as it surely will be described in greater detail in book #4.
...
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Macintosh should be off the island, and explaining the killing of that snake in a Mexican court, not in a new "adventure" book. Some people think he
shouldn't be "ragged on" on a message board? Hey, we'll take what little justice we can get; he should get worse.
The islands are supposed to be ecological reserves, not locations for some guy to set up his next for-profit venture. ANYONE who thinks that a snake
found near a campsite on these islands can or should be killed should vacation elsewhere. Like Cabo San Lucas.
Macintosh could spend a month in "Cabo" and write about it. It might be more interesting than his planned and canned adventures.
It might be even better if he could write as well as Hook.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64832
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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So, would you rather not read of what it is like camping on an island off Baja than to hear the whole story, including the death of one rattlesnake?
Graham is not hiding the snake kill from us, yet because he did tell us, those of you who put the poison viper above humans are having quite a field
day here! 
When fishuntr killed the red diamondback that came into our busy camp area (dogs, people) in April, 2003, you snake-lovers also had a fit. 
Sorry folks but in my opinion man IS a natural part of this planet and man can kill the lower beasts for survival (food, safety, etc.). 
Graham has a permit to be there, as stated in the earlier mails from him... Maybe he will turn himself in? Jail would be a quiet place to write his
next book, afterall!
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Fatboy
Senior Nomad
Posts: 746
Registered: 6-28-2005
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| Quote: |
Graham is not hiding the snake kill from us, yet because he did tell us, those of you who put the poison viper above humans are having quite a field
day here!
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OK. now hold up a minute. It was Graham OR the snake? The Snake WAS NOT ATTACKING a helpless creature! You need to be more realistic here and don't
try to defend Graham.
| Quote: |
Sorry folks but in my opinion man IS a natural part of this planet and man can kill the lower beasts for survival (food, safety, etc.).
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So which one was Graham's reason for killing the snake? Safety? He was in no danger, there are probably several snakes, not to mention scorpions
within 50 yards of his camp.
Food? Having been there, done that, I would not consider it a meal. Was he starving to death?
Etc.? This must be it. Since there is no reason to kill something except eat it, keep it from eating you or to prevent it from eating your food. Any
other reason is just killing for the sake of killing.
Killing the snake was just him being afraid of snakes which does NOT make it RIGHT. It just goes to show how ignorant we humans are. I am not holding
it against him and want to hear more of his adventure. Just do not make it some big deal, he killed it, he shouldn't have, time to move on.
Oops, gotta go, some birds just landed on my property and I feel the need to kill something, not to eat, just kill...
[Edited on 3-13-2006 by Fatboy]
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