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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3597
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
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Security in Baja and elsewhere
I've been reading lots of posts on crime recently so thought a new subject addressing security might be in order.
I carry a handgun up North. Just how I choose to live my life and what I think of the society I live in. If I could carry one legally down South,
I would. The penalty for not having a registered gun down South is severe. Don't know a thing about registration but it wouldn't matter. Don't
want to carry a handgun in Baja.
So, there's a line of thought in law enforcement that the best security anyone can have is a dog. Two dogs are even better. Burglers won't break
into homes where a dog is barking. No one breaks into an RV or vehicle with a dog in it. Lots of people are afraid of dogs.
Beyond that, perhaps an analogy is helpful here. In Hawaii, most tourists unfamiliar with the Islands tend to lose sight of the undercurrent of
crime taking place there. That's my experience in Baja through Central America, as well.
I remember reading once in a travel book something that has always stuck with me regarding traveling: don't be lulled into a false sense of security.
Baja is safe and at the same time, it's not safe. It pays to have eyes in the back of your head, being aware of your surroundings, and using common
sense.
It's possible to be the most diligent security minded person there is, and still get into trouble. If someone wants to get you, they'll get you.
There are things you can do, though, to cut down those odds.
Seriously, if you don't have a dog, get one. Travel with a dog and you'll cut your chances of being a victim in 1/2. (I'm guessing the
percentage, here.)
Carry a weapon. A pen (ink pen or pencil) is a weapon in the hands of the right person.
I carry a form of nunchuck (an Asian hand weapon) that attaches to my keychain. It looks harmless enough.
I carry a knife too. Not a large knife but a knife nevertheless. It looks like a tool with a blade.
Just for the record. I'm comfortable traveling in Hawaii or Baja, and points South. I've experienced (not personally but towards other people)
too much violence and crime to think the world is a safe place. I can still have fun and relax. But then, I like to have my dog around and be
armed too.
Anything else anyone can add?
Be safe out there, Nomads.
[Edited on 11-14-2006 by Lee]
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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QuePasaBaja
Nomad
Posts: 179
Registered: 9-7-2006
Location: Rosarito Beach
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we have two dogs. One akita who is about 115 pounds, and one is a mix breed retreiver.
They will both gladly eat your face if you walk in the fence. If im here, they will lick you to death. And we have been told by the neighbors that
people walking by take the long way past the yard. Even though the fence is 6ft.
We also have installed motion snesors on the outside lights. As for our person when we are out, I carry an asp in my truck door, and am well versed
in it's use. Although I dont sugguest fighting with someone trying to rob you, you may want to. Just think before you do. Is the 60$ in your pocket
worth your life?
Have a Baja Day
QuePasaBaja
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Diver
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4729
Registered: 11-15-2004
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One night they were so quite that even the 2 labs didn;t wake up; only my wife !
Here is a reprint of a story I posted a while back. This happened 4 years ago. When we got to El Requeson 2 years ago, my wife met some people on the
beach that told her the story of the crazy gringo with the shovel. I am famous !!
Picture this;
A somewhat overweight, gray-bearded gringo awakens in his camper to the sound of his wife saying that someone is outside and she thinks they stole our
gas can....
Picture this;
A somewhat overweight, gray-bearded gringo in night shorts, pajama top and slippers running (well kinda) half way around El Requeson carrying a
folding camp shovel....
Picture this;
A somewhat overweight, gray-bearded, out-of-breath gringo stops and realizes "What the heck am I doing ?" as the three banditos notice him
approaching. They jump into their pick-up and speed by (could have hit me but probably realized that my bulk would damage their little truck) and
received a camp shovel in the windshield for their trouble. Luckily, they elected to keep going, so there is still a somewhat overweight, gray-bearded
gringo to tell the story !!
PS Don't try this at home !
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
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Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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this post has been edited by Bruce R Leech under duress.
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[Edited on 11-14-2006 by Bruce R Leech]
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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DianaT
Select Nomad
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Registered: 12-17-2004
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Lee,
Some very good advice. It was when we let our guard down is when we had our truck stolen in Guatemala. We didn't follow the rules. We had been
living in Central America for over a year, and just had that "false sense of security."
Dogs? We have two who travel with us. The little 30 lb c-cker mix is lots of bark, but she has a slightly deformed mouth (could have used braces)
and could not inflict much damage.
Our 60 pound welsh springer spaniel thinks everyone is family and welcomes even the UPS man. But, in Mexico, even these two worthless watch dogs
cause many to keep their distance.
Thanks for your post---a good reminder for everyone.
Diane
[Edited on 11-14-2006 by jdtrotter]
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FARASHA
Senior Nomad
Posts: 848
Registered: 6-3-2006
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Sure - a fight is not worth if it's just over some cash. No problem with being robbed - never carry to much with me anyway.
BUT if my life/health is at risk - I'll fight, definitely don't want to be raped.
What I did when I was 17 - I went to JUDO class, for some time, till I earned my brown belt. That gives me at least the confidence that I'm able to
fight if needed.
In addition I ALWAYS carried a Stiletto with me, later a gas pistol, when out on my own in towns.
I'm very suspicious about WHO walks behind me, never take empty side roads, take rather a cab to doorstep instead of walking home.
Have my house keys ready in my hand, with the keys poking through between my fingers - a very good weapon to hurt an assailant, who might wait around
the main gate or the entrance.
Good thing is also to have a WHISTLE at hand (around neck) to alert others for help. Or scream FIRE, rather then Help.
A survey showed that people are more likely to react to FIRE!
When abroad I'm trying to pick up on local habits for lonely women, get information what to do ( or to avoid) in addition to the above.
BASIC rule - LOCK doors twice, leave key inside! Watch your windows - very often the weakest point of the house.
Get to know your neighbors, tell them when you are alone, they are more likely to look out for you, and assist when needed.
I lived all on my own in an remote small village in near east.
I had never a bad experience. Neighborhood knew me and my habits. And came checking for me if something was unusual. Had with them an agreement IF
something should happen, to alert them by a whistle, a shout, etc. (NO phones at that time there), and my closest neighbor had a dog who would hang
out during the night around MY house ( I fed him several times with some goodies by NIGHT  ). There happened quite some thefts and break ins in the area - but I was left alone, while living there.
The moment I left for some month - I had a break in!
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Taco de Baja
Super Nomad
Posts: 1913
Registered: 4-14-2004
Location: Behind the Orange Curtain, CA
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Mood: Dreamin' of Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bruce R Leech
I have had 2 more incidents of robberies on the beaches reported to me just this morning.
don't camp in remote places. stay in groups. I know this is not what you come to Baja Ca. for but be safe and have a good time.
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Have to disagree with you Bruce, as the old Baja saying goes: Good roads, bad people; bad roads, good people.
The more remote you are, the safer you probably are. And I will continue to remote camp until they pry the steering wheel form my dead
fingers.
Why would a bandito want to drive 50 miles off-road for several hours each way, when there are nice pickings along the paved road, or very close to
it? The recent incidents, including the shooting attacks, seen to bear this out. Most if not all, were on or close to a paved road, were they not?.
Camping in groups is of course a great idea, and can be a lot of fun too. 
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3597
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jdtrotter
Our 60 pound welsh springer spaniel thinks everyone is family and welcomes even the UPS man. But, in Mexico, even these two worthless watch dogs
cause many to keep their distance.
Thanks for your post---a good reminder for everyone.
Diane
[Edited on 11-14-2006 by jdtrotter] |
That's great, Diane. I get a similar experience with my small Lab, Allee. She's small for a Lab, 65 pounds, but sitting in the passenger seat of
my SUV, she's a black dog and unpredictable. At checkpoints, most stand back until she's leashed and in my control. Even when I tell them she's
friendly, they keep their distance. I always feel like cracking up because they don't know how passive she is.
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3597
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Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bruce R Leech
I have had 2 more incidents of robberies on the beaches reported to me just this morning.
don't camp in remote places. stay in groups. I know this is not what you come to Baja Ca. for but be safe and have a good time.
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Have to disagree with you Bruce, as the old Baja saying goes: Good roads, bad people; bad roads, good people.
The more remote you are, the safer you probably are. And I will continue to remote camp until they pry the steering wheel form my dead
fingers.
Why would a bandito want to drive 50 miles off-road for several hours each way, when there are nice pickings along the paved road, or very close to
it? The recent incidents, including the shooting attacks, seen to bear this out. Most if not all, were on or close to a paved road, were they not?.
Camping in groups is of course a great idea, and can be a lot of fun too.
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I'm with Taco on this one. If you're pulling off the road, go far off the road. The more remote the better. Still, I recognize what Bruce is
saying. Some places might seem remote but to locals, they aren't remote. I believe ''the hills have eyes."
Get a dog. You'll be happier and safer.
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Lee
| Quote: | Originally posted by jdtrotter
Our 60 pound welsh springer spaniel thinks everyone is family and welcomes even the UPS man. But, in Mexico, even these two worthless watch dogs
cause many to keep their distance.
Thanks for your post---a good reminder for everyone.
Diane
[Edited on 11-14-2006 by jdtrotter] |
That's great, Diane. I get a similar experience with my small Lab, Allee. She's small for a Lab, 65 pounds, but sitting in the passenger seat of
my SUV, she's a black dog and unpredictable. At checkpoints, most stand back until she's leashed and in my control. Even when I tell them she's
friendly, they keep their distance. I always feel like cracking up because they don't know how passive she is.
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Here are those worthless watchdogs---but at the check points, they always back off, but then they really have fun when they realize that the little
one is the muy bravo one.
We won't quit going to Baja, but we will make some adjustments and not fall into that "false sense of security". One thing we have learned is to
listen to our instincts. When we had our truck stolen in Guatemala, we both did not feel OK about the guy parked next to us, but we ignored the
feeling. Now if one of us has that feeling, we listen to it!
Diane
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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I concur
| Quote: | Originally posted by grover
An indispensable camp tool. |
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vandenberg
Elite Nomad
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Mood: mellow
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A flare gun is legal to posess. Don't know if it is away from a vessel, but I doubt any would-be robber would ask questions. Hate like hell to get
shot with one. Just a suggestion for a self defense tool.
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
Posts: 2962
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Grover
Always had one in the car and in the kitchen. Agree with Taco and Lee--best place is where Mama said. Off the beaten track.
So many of you bring dogs that lick faces rather than bite--not good.
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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Yes! A flare gun sounds like it could get you out of harm's way.
Bernie, my 95lb black dog is definitely a face licker but it scares the hell out of people just walking by. It seems that in Mexico, most people are
afraid of dogs.
Everyone I meet while walking the dog gives it lots of latitude. The military too.
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
Posts: 2116
Registered: 11-7-2002
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My dog is a black pit bull - Labrador mix. She can get so mean - she is likely to get me sued some day. A couple whacks with a machete will probably
only pee her off. She looked so cute as a puppy, but everybody is afraid of her now. And can she bark.
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
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Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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Sheep, Wolf or Sheepdog???
Interesting reading..............although directed to law enforcement and military personnel, some lessons can be learned for everyday life......be
prepared, always!!!
On Sheep, Sheepdogs, and Wolves
By Dave Grossman
"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true.
Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast
majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.
Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate
of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than
one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is
considerably less than two million.
Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still
remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme
provocation. They are sheep.
I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow
into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell,
and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.
Then there are the wolves, and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy. Do you believe there are wolves out there that will feed on the flock
without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is
not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.
Then there are sheepdogs, who live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.....
If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your
fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow
citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into
the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.
Let me expand on this excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, which is what makes them sheep. They
do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers,
fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.
But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to
be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of
someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.
The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is
that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished
and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.
Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where
to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have
the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."
Until the wolf shows up! Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.
The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the
time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT
teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs
feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.
Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently
about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?
Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny
critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a
righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the
sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.
Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the
attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs,
the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed
into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to
survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.
There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of
violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language:
slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that
is least able to protect itself.
Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose
which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.
Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man
on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the
other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was
a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business
people and parents. -- From sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.
"Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"
"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men." - Edmund Burke
Here is the point I like to emphasize; especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real
sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you
can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.
If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your
loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to
hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust, or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a
conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking
at the door.
For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters
tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your
congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your
loved ones.
I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other
cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was
at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down
fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all
he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to
live with yourself after that?"
Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably
scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were
defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic
accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.
Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly
asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there
helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"
It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is
counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.
Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train.
Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are
psychologically shattered by your fear, helplessness, and horror at your moment of truth.
Gavin de Becker puts it like this in "Fear Less," his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with
our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by
saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."
Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some
level.
And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.
If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the
bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you
walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... "Baa."
This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a
continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the
other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a
few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up
that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically, at your
moment of truth.
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3597
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajaguy
Interesting reading..............although directed to law enforcement and military personnel, some lessons can be learned for everyday life......be
prepared, always!!!
On Sheep, Sheepdogs, and Wolves
By Dave Grossman
Interesting reading. I think there might be another level not mentioned. The sheepdog in sheep's clothing? Someone who will step forward when
called, when necessary, but isn't called everyday. I do think sheepdogs are born, and hear a calling to protect and sacrifice themselves for the
higher good. Once a Marine, always a Marine. Once a cop...
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US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
Member Is Offline
Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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Good thought, Lee.......In my experience, I have found that it is better not to advertise that one is a Sheepdog in Sheeps clothing (or is that
wool)....the whole idea is to prepare and be prepared...........
From one old soldier to another (or Marine) as the case may be.
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windgrrl
Super Nomad
Posts: 1336
Registered: 9-2-2006
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My 2 bits worth...a military survival trainer once told me that his item of choice, if he had one tool and no other for survival, was an axe. Guy died
in a car crash not long after., so maybe an axe doesn't cover every possibility.
When the way comes to an end, then change. Having changed, you pass through.
~ I-Ching
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
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Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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Tools......
I can think of several that you can carry everyday:
small pepper spray
knife
metal ink pen
small stun gun
I usually have 3 out of the 4 on my person all of the time.
The secret is to be prepared, practice and be aware of your surroundings (situational awareness)...personally, in a vehicle and at home/work....when
things don't "feel" right, they aren't!!!
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