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David K
Honored Nomad
       
Posts: 65304
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Wilderone, I never said a negative thing about Greenpiece... oh sorry, Greenpeace!
Honestly, re-read my reply (to Judy) asking WHY WAIT until the END of the project, when stopping that marina from being STARTED would have been the
intelligent thing to do (like San Ignacio Lagoon vs. Mitsubishi Salt).
I am all for saving turtles!!! I want their numbers to come back up so strong that we can legally and morally consume them once again!
Personally, I would love Baja to look like 1965 all over again, as that was the year I first went there... Gonzaga Bay or 1966 to Cabo San Lucas!!!
Realistically, that is not going to happen! No matter how hard you try and stop the Mexican people from developing the peninsula so they can prosper
from it, it is still THEIR peninsula.
So, ranting about a marina that is 90% completed or getting a bunch of has-been hippies to have a sit-in is NOT the answer!
Offering an ECO-TOURISM alternative that allows Mexicans to prosper, and tourists to enjoy Baja, with limits on develpoment of land or shoreline
projects, IS THE ANSWER (I believe)!
Where was Greenpeace or whoever cared when this project was PROPOSED???
Wilderone, we are on the same page... just I have a different way of getting a positive result. San Ignacio Lagoon was a big victory for us
consrvatives (or conservationists)... Learn from that example...
[Edited on 5-8-2007 by David K]
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Frank
Senior Nomad
 
Posts: 861
Registered: 6-5-2005
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Is it time to leave yet?
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So how much are they charging for slip fees?
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
     
Posts: 10007
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Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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Think back to when Lake Powell was first proposed--------Edward Abbey and the Sierra Club, (etc.) quoted all kinds of "science" to prove what
disasters would happen if Lake Powell was ever filled.
Well guess what, Lake Powell has been filled and drawn down many times and as far as I know NONE of the "disasters" predicted by "scientific" studies
has happened.
But, the economy of the Navaho Nation, and nearby enterprises in Southern Utah and northern Arizona have benefitted greatly by Lake Powell and the
related recreation.
Yes, we lost a beautiful canyon (Glenn Canyon)------everything is a tradeoff.
Ask most of the residents in the subject area what they think----------etc., etc.
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David K
Honored Nomad
       
Posts: 65304
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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I only wish all enviromentalists would place mankind in the loop of consideration... As it is, they seem to think that man is alien to this planet and
only the good of the lower animals should be protected!
Well, man is a natural part of this planet, too!
We need water, recreation, income, food... Conservation means not to destroy or eliminate, but it doesn't mean to prohibit...
Don't overfish the same areas until they are void of sea life... practice conservation like they do in Asuncion, but don't prohibit what is natural
for man to do... forever!
The harbor was built, so be it... Greenpeace wasn't paying attention when it should have... I don't think the clock can be turned back on this anymore
than can Hwy. 1 be turned back into an unimproved dirt road south of El Rosario (as I would like)!
What do they say, 'put up or shut up'?
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bajadogs
Super Nomad
  
Posts: 1076
Registered: 8-28-2006
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Quote: | David K - Greenpeace wasn't paying attention when it should have |
WE weren't paying attention when we should have. I think that's the intention of this last effort by Greenpeace - drawing attention to what is now the
inevitable destruction of a fragile habitat, already under stress. How much development can the environment handle?
I don't think we should kick back and wait for environmental groups to save our sorry, selfish burros.
Geez, I hate butting heads with you DavidK... again.
Peace
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David K
Honored Nomad
       
Posts: 65304
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Bajadogs, please understand (and I have said it above), I hate development too... BUT, it is going to happen... So, why not develop eco-friendly stuff
rather than having a sit-in and wishing it never happened?
Staging a road block is just so childish and counterproductive to your cause.
If they didn't want it built then the time to act was THEN.
Acting now, is what I am having a hard time understanding... after the marina was already built!!
Peace to you friend!
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amir
Senior Nomad
 
Posts: 559
Registered: 5-4-2007
Location: Todos Santos, BCS
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Mood: chiropractic
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Maybe they (Greenpeace) did it now for publicity, a self-promoting stunt: all those conservationists and guilt-ridden bystanders that did nothing all
along now will reach deep into their pockets and support Greenpeace so they can stage another roadblock somewhere else another time...
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bajadogs
Super Nomad
  
Posts: 1076
Registered: 8-28-2006
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Quote: | So, why not develop eco-friendly stuff rather than having a sit-in and wishing it never happened? |
I agree! We should all be more pro-active.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
   
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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$=Influence + Power
In the USofA the Utility industry was able to obtain deregulation by following the very clear plan of buying local, state and federal legislators and
regulators via campaign contributions. It was a very successful strategy that ended up in the dabacle of Enron. The Tea Pot Dome scandal, which
finally led to anti trust laws, in those days the Corporations were called Trusts, was similar in that the business interests successfully went to bed
with the politicos and that time they sold off the national oil reserve, named Tea Pot Dome. Two weeks ago in the LA paper we read of "surplus"
buildings in the national forests for sale to private individuals. Amazing!!
It is small wonder that the latest Mexican election was won by a razor thin majority, those folks in the wings are becoming very hungry and very
unhappy with the sort of status quo that allows this sort of project to be completed, given the studies sited here.
In the USofA 28 Republican Senators voted last week against allowing the government to negotiate prices with drug companies. The voted against free
markets and therefore the people of the USofA pay the highest prices in the world for their medications. This is part of the reason for the medical
tourism that we see in the Baja. At some point the excesses of people like this become apparent to enough people and change happens. Unfortunately it
often takes a crisis of major proportion for epical change to occur.
Iflyfishwhennotcontemplatingongreed
Iflyfish
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fishbuck
Banned
Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
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"It ain't over till it's over"
It might be too late. But they haven't cut the channel yet have they.
I applaud the Greenpeace people for their actions. Maybe I'll drive down there and park my a$$ on the road too! Maybe that's the point.
Saving things like whales and turtles and vaquitas is an on going battle. Just cause we saved them yesterday and today doesn't mean they are saved for
tomorrow.
And David K I hate to disagree with you but the way modern man lives is not natural. Think native americans who were stewards of the earth and lived
in harmony. What's natural about a cruise ship full of greedy tourists?
The real problem is that for every 1 person who cares about that wetland there are 1000 who want a boat slip there and a condo. But that doesn't mean
throw in the towel.
Fight for what you believe in.
[Edited on 5-8-2007 by fishbuck]
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
    
Posts: 8088
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Well guess what, Lake Powell has been filled and drawn down many times and as far as I know NONE of the "disasters" predicted by "scientific" studies
has happened. |
Lake Powell IS the disaster.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
   
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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fishbuck, I'll hold your coat.
salud!
Iflyfish
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bajadogs
Super Nomad
  
Posts: 1076
Registered: 8-28-2006
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Skipjack - I'll hold your hat.
Arizona residents and many others would claim Lake Powell a success. The upper gulf used to be one of the greatest bird sanctuaries in the world, but
has been cut off dramatically from fresh water for human consumption. ¡Salud! y tu flyfish!
bd
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David K
Honored Nomad
       
Posts: 65304
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Bummer that humans need to have water to live!  
Of course some say this place is for the birds!!!
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
   
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Clarification:
I misspoke on the latest tdrug bill balked at by 28 Repubican Senators. The bill they voted against would have allowed qualified foreign medications
to be imported into the US, like the ones people purchase in Canada. Many of the drugs we use are manufactured offshore anyway in ostensibly US
Corporations. I confused this vote with their earlier votes to disallow the US Government to negotiate lower drug prices by negotiating and purchasing
in blocks. We all lost a lot on that one. Drug Corps won big time on both of these bills.
I was using this as an example of how the people lose out when government colludes with corporations and industries to promote the interests of these
huge campaign contributors when the peoples interests are left wanting. I suspect that the Cabo Marina project is a similar collaborative effort.
Iflyfish
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
    
Posts: 6886
Registered: 10-4-2004
Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
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I would like to correct one misconception. The developers are not gringos, they are Mexicans.
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vandenberg
Elite Nomad
    
Posts: 5118
Registered: 6-21-2005
Location: Nopolo
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Mood: mellow
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Quote: | Originally posted by bajajudy
I would like to correct one misconception. The developers are not gringos, they are Mexicans. |
Well, that put a whole new light on the subject. No greedy Kanucks or other Gringos 
So guys, better start over 
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Slowmad
Nomad

Posts: 243
Registered: 3-24-2005
Location: Alta California
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Quote: | San Ignacio Lagoon was a big victory for us consrvatives (or conservationists)... Learn from that example...
[Edited on 5-8-2007 by David K] |
Sure was.
Thanks for helping on that, David.
If we purport to care about Baja, it's time to step up and contribute.
In the time it takes to cast aspersions on conservation efforts—be they early, current, or late—we can at least spare a thought for where this is
heading.
Perhaps a Baja preservation category in the forums would fill in some blanks, and attract some of the folks making positive moves on the peninsula.
It's in every thinking Baja aficionado's interest to educate themselves.
There are some staggeringly positive moves being made on the conservation easement front (Nature Conservancy, NRDC, Packard Foundation, WildCoast,
Pronatura).
Should we criticize these groups for not starting earlier?
Be you knee-jerk lefty or single-celled Dittohead, Baja's worth protecting.
The only requirement for love or chorizo is confidence.
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
    
Posts: 6886
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Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
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Another misconception....the Greenpeace people here are young Mexicans not old hippies.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
   
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Well said Slowmad.
"Think native americans who were stewards of the earth and lived in harmony."
Like soulpatch I believe that there were amoung the Native peoples some who were very wise and far sighted. Chief Seattle, Red Jacket, Black Elk etc.
I have read some of their writings and admire their prescience.
I however have also learned that many native people were brutish, ignorant and overused the resources that the land provided. The difference then was
that there were lots of places to move when the local area was devistated.
Many do now know that the Haida slaved all the way from the Queen Charlottes to San Francisco Bay. People ran and hit in terror when they heard that
the Haida were coming.
Many do not realize that there is evidence of canabolism in the ruins of the Anastasi. 40,000 people were sacrificed at the dedication of the temple
of the sun in Tenochetlan, the temple and streets ran with blood. I doubt that there is really little difference between then and now.
Some amoung us seem to posess far sightedness and wisdom. Most ?????? I have lived in a nation that in my life time has supported two marches to
folley that have accounted for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, not to mention the destruction of the enviorment that occurs as a
consequence of war.
I think that human nature has changed little over the millenia. Humans appear to be genocidal and will rape and pillage till the last stone is turned.
As Burke said, "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil over good is that good men do nothing" I like that.
bajajudy
"I would like to correct one misconception. The developers are not gringos, they are Mexicans."
It would appear that race and national origin are no impediments to the sort of thinking that would destroy one of the last great estuaries of Baja.
Look out Ensenada, they are after the Estero there too.
Iflyfishwhennottiltingatwindmills
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