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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Ramping it up
You guys certainly take took this subject to a new level. Do you think morality has a play in actually saving wild stocks? Can we
look at each other from a purely non-selfish attitude while connecting the dots. Could religion be a factor?
I suppose if you get into comparitive cultures you could derive demographic numbers and maybe one could make an equation. It would be very
interesting to see if say, Muslim countries had better wild stocks of comparitive fish in comparitive areas. Do other Latin countries share similar
scenarios.
I suggest money is the religion at play here. It has nada to do with resource management. Perhaps there may be a grad study to clarify the dynamic
impact on Bajas near/offshore fisheries from netting but I doubt this type of info and data could be gathered let alone permitted.
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Pescador
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I continue to sit on my hands and keep telling myself not to post on this issue but the pressure is building. I find it amazing and is probably part
of the culture of the United States and to some degree Canada to figure that we are somehow the saviors and solution to the world. Here we are
ranting about how to establish conservation in a country in which we are visitors. Even though I have been going to Mexico since the late 50's, and
live there half of the year, I only have a small glimpse into the psyche and thought process of the Mexican culture. It is interesting to hear Pam
Bolles and Shari from Asencion who have married into the culture saying that there are levels of culture that they struggle with understanding even
though they are intimately involved. And yet, here we take the liberty and superior attitude that we know what the problem is and how to fix it. We
can't even agree if Greenpeace or other consortions are in fact effective but we are going to unleash our management on the Mexican Culture and teach
them how to conserve their resources. At least we owe them the respect of realizing that they are their resources. There is some kind of superiority
communicated in Fishbuck's attitude that they have to be made to see how they are exploiting their resources.
It must be a part of our culture to expand our way of thinking to the world and show them how to do it. Is this not the same kind of thinking that
caused us the problem in Iraq? Whether you support the war or not the fact remains that our reason for going (forget weapons of mass destruction) was
to bring freedom and democracy to the middle east. If it took us 200+ years to learn how to live within freedom and democracy then how do we bring it
about in a couple of years to a group of people who have never clearly indicated that is what they want to do with their lives.
So here we are importing our alpha male syndrome into Mexico and we haven't even taken time to listen to what they want and how we might help them
achieve that. I'm not that sure that we have managed our own fish stocks all that effectively. Why in Colorado we have Whirling Disease which has
affected every major river containing trout and that came from the Colorado Department of Game and Fish.
Skeet at least has the perception after having lived there for a long time that there is some kind of process going on here and it may well be the
wrong one for the ultimate perpetuation of the species, but I still think that the Mexican people have the right to fail or succeed and our advice is
better given when asked for.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Ah, the voice of reason. Mexico has big, better, best plans for the Sea of Cortez. go to www.mexidata.info and you'll learn all about it -- you can order the whole Mexican law/plan/mandate IN ENGLISH online.
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jerry
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Location: loreto
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thank you Pescador well said my thoughts exactly
jerry and judi
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
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"Mexican people have the right to fail or succeed"
No human being on this earth has the right to exploit, diminish, poison, drive to extinction any species the planet supports, including Mexicans.
Greenpeace? You keep talking about Greenpeace. In just 10 minutes on the internet you will find innumerable entities which study and support wildlife
on Earth - worldwide. Hard science. Elsewhere on this board is a long discussion on the tuna pens. And comparing it with salmon farming. Elsewhere
is the so-called Greenpeace induced Pacific tuna fleet demise, leading to the tuna industry shifting to other countries. Do you finally get the idea
that it's one earth? A global economy? Mexicans are exploiting an unregulated tuna penning industry to feed the Japanese. Ditto Malta, Spain and
Libya. Here is what I found in about 5 minutes - the wealth of information - for your edification is ming-boggling, but it doesn't take rocket
science to tell you that human beings are destroying the earth's resources far faster than ever before, and we cannot continue to allow such using and
abusing and expect that there will be no ramifications. Each small incident - the development of a beach that has, for 1000 years been undeveloped,
will have an adverse impact - no question about that. Overuse of an aquifer; diseased fish farms, etc. So cut the crap already about how anyone has
a right to destroy something that everyone else on the earth is dependent upon. Rather, we are stewards of the earth's resources, and mankind has
done a pitiful job. Here's a sampling:
“Salmon farms are source of sea lice, say scientists”. According to the Scottish-based Sea Trout Group (29th July) the “new research points to fish
farm cages as most likely source of sea lice” and “show links between sea lice infestation on salmon farms and ‘pools’ of sea lice juveniles ready to
infect wild fish on a Scottish sea loch”.
______________
Just over a year after the malachite green scandal blew up in the face of the Chilean salmon farming industry, the suspected carcinogen has once again
been detected by Dutch health officials in farmed Chilean salmon destined for supermarkets across Europe. “In a survey of farmed salmon on sale at
major stores, samples from Morrisons contained malachite green; a chemical banned in Britain in June 2002 amid concerns that it is toxic and might
trigger cancer.
____________________
Literature holds many documented cases of fish diseases spreading from fish farms – for example, Ward et al. (2001) reports that in 1995 and 1998-1999
the Australian population of pilchard, Sardinops sagax, was affected by two mass mortalities that each killed more fish over a larger area than any
other mono-specific fish-kill ever recorded. The responsible agent was found to be a previously unknown herpesvirus (pilchard herpesvirus PHV) thought
to be exotic to Australian sardines. In 1995 but not in
1998, mortalities also spread to New Zealand (Smith, 1995). As a result, spawning biomass of S. sagax in South Australian waters fell by 75%; spawning
biomass reduction following the 1998 event is estimated at about 70% (Ward et al., 2001).
_______________________
Tuna in Croatia seas: 'We don't have any'
By Elisabeth Rosenthal International Herald Tribune
Published: July 7, 2006
SUCURAJ, Croatia Two decades ago, the channels that separate the Adriatic islands here were brimming with tuna, a species so plentiful that tourists
used to climb ladders by the sea to watch the schools swim by. Today, these majestic predators are rarely caught.
"You have to work a lot harder to catch fish of any kind," said Lubomir Petricivic, a fisherman who recently opened a restaurant in the harbor here.
"Tuna? Impossible. We don't have any - we can't get it."
The tuna population in the Mediterranean is nearing extinction, a new WWF report released this past week has warned, with catches down 80 percent over
the past few years, even among high-tech trawlers that now comb remote corners of the sea in search of the hard-to-find fish.
"This is past the alarm stage," said Simon Cripps, director of the Global Marine program at WWF. "We are seeing a complete collapse of the tuna
population - it could disappear and never come back."
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Bingo!
"Mexican people have the right to fail or succeed"
No human being on this earth has the right to exploit, diminish, poison, drive to extinction any species the planet supports, including Mexicans.
Yeah, why the hell do you folks think that the elite few who cash in on tuna exploitation have a god given right to do so. The tuna belong to the
seas which belong to the planet. You can't just indiscriminately scoop em up and send them to Japan.......or can you? Giving free reign to govt and
corporate sponsors of these tuna farms is rediculous. You really believe that a country has a right to exploit any fishery. Good grief.
Anyone for a baleen sandwich??
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Dennis:
Tell me what difference will be if all Tuna are Gone?????
Wildone:
What will happen if a Species is Lost????
As i sat in the Dental Office awaiting the Picks and Shovels to arrive for the Cleaning of my Teeth, I was very pleasantly surpised to pick up a
current Copy of "Newsweek" . "Harry S. Truman !!!!!!!
Could it be possible that this Country is looking for a "Fighter Type" for the Next President>> I hope So.
Do you People think that you have the "Right" to set the Agenda, Thinking and Responsibility for the "Future Generations"?
Over my 40 years on the Sea of Cortez, and in the early times I helped my Mexicano Friends in San Nicolas and Loreto Commerical Fish for Shark,
Parquette, Yellowtail etc.. As a result of some of thatextra income from me buying the Gas for the Fishing, was Dental work on Children and Wives was
Afforded. People were Helped, who wanted to Help themselves and their Familes.
What would happen if "Oscar" cut the Nets of the Mexican Fisherman??
You can no more stop the Neeting than you can stop the taking of DRUGS, by the American Public.
I do not have any "Hate" in my system. I was trying to point out that "People who live in Glass Houses, should not throw Stones"
How many on this Thread Have lived among the Mexican People, How many speak their Lanuage?
Thanks to all for a Good Discussion; Sure do hope we get a "Truman" in the next Election, maybe he can bring order out of Chaos and then another
"Kennedy" who can again ask" Do not ask what your Country can do for you,
Ask What you can do for Your Country!!! Not Baja Mexico.
Skeet/Loreto
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Maybe the key words to this issue are "frustration" followed by "hope"? We can see what has already happened in other areas, to other fish stocks. For the most part, it isn't a pretty picture.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
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Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Skeet, politics aside the other poster's comments are timely:
1. Yesterday marked the first day of the Shark Norma 029 law allowing inshore netting and longlining in the Sea of Cortez
2. Most of the boats in the Cabo San Lucas marina made a parade protest in the packed marina (they blocked the marina but let the cruise ships in)
3. 3 large Profepa patrol boats were trailered to this area (Palmas bay of East Cape) to begin daily patrols of inshore and offshore waters to look
for violations of maritime/fishing operations under existing and new laws.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
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No more tuna sandwiches.
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fishbuck
Banned
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Anybody know the details of Shark Norma 029. The sportfishing fleet was not too happy about it. Why?
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
"Mexican people have the right to fail or succeed"
No human being on this earth has the right to exploit, diminish, poison, drive to extinction any species the planet supports, including Mexicans. 
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So let's invade Mexico, line up the bad guys and shoot em.
I agree that everything that someone who lives south of the border may have an ultimate influence on me, but the process of treaties and binational
agreement is a long ardous process. If you are going to change something you at least need to respect the other person's point of view.
I have a good friend in Santa Rosalia who I have had long discussions with concerning conservation of fish stocks and he looked at me one night and
responded with: " Of course you want to save the fish, you like to catch them for recreation, but I need to catch them for food to eat today, and that
makes a difference. You have a full belly and mine is frequently empty, so we sometimes have a different view of the world, no?"
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backninedan
Senior Nomad
Posts: 865
Registered: 3-8-2003
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Fishbuck, here is a site that explains shark norma 209 in detail.
http://www.seawatch.org/position_papers/shark_norma.php
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fishbuck
Banned
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
"Mexican people have the right to fail or succeed"
No human being on this earth has the right to exploit, diminish, poison, drive to extinction any species the planet supports, including Mexicans.
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So let's invade Mexico, line up the bad guys and shoot em.
I agree that everything that someone who lives south of the border may have an ultimate influence on me, but the process of treaties and binational
agreement is a long ardous process. If you are going to change something you at least need to respect the other person's point of view.
I have a good friend in Santa Rosalia who I have had long discussions with concerning conservation of fish stocks and he looked at me one night and
responded with: " Of course you want to save the fish, you like to catch them for recreation, but I need to catch them for food to eat today, and that
makes a difference. You have a full belly and mine is frequently empty, so we sometimes have a different view of the world, no?"
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So why is it that he is so hungry and your not? Why is fishing a sport for you and a matter of life and death for him?
That's kinda of been my point. They have created their own problems. And now he wants to solve this problem by creating a new bigger problem.
(Overfishing)
Tourism probably creates more money for them than commercial fishing. My guess is that sportfishing alone has very little impact on the fishery when
the catch limits are followed.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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Minnow
Banned
Posts: 1110
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Location: Lost Wages
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Mood: Embarrased Harry Reid is a Nevadan
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Pescador, I don't know a Mexican alive who worries about how much he has in his belly. Sure hunger makes a person do almost anything, but talk about
it. Now, if you would have said how much his children had to eat, I would have believed you.
Proud husband of a legal immigrant.
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
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Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Norma is a scary thing
| Quote: | Originally posted by fishbuck
Anybody know the details of Shark Norma 029. The sportfishing fleet was not too happy about it. Why? |
I think that's pretty obvious. Long-lining isn't fair.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
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