| Pages:
1
2
3
4 |
MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
Member Is Offline
Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
|
|
Jingoism ??
I'm glad to see that the Warm, Caring and Cuddly Liberals who take offense at personal attacks refrain from doing the same themselves.
Yeh, Right. Terms like "Uneducated, Ignorant, Jingoistic , Xenophobic and (the real zinger) Homophobic are ALL insulting, albeit not profane.
I'm not complaining, mind you, just reminding others of the inherent Hypocrisy bred into the Liberal Neural Processes.
The point that "individuals" may have had a variety of motives in deciding to accompany others in the Search to the New Worlds is simplistic and
irrelevent. The only Motives relevent are those of the people IN CHARGE. In the Case of Columbus, that was Queen Isabella. In that
case and other Nation-sponsored exploration, the motive of the Sovereign was as I stated. The intense competition between the European powers
(England, France, Spain, Portugal for the most part) at any given time resulted in voyages to enhance the wealth and power of those nations. In the
case of Columbus, he promised Isabella a route to the Indies other than that controlled by Portugal.
I suppose you could add to that the desire to spread Chrisianity (Catholic Version) to the savage infidels of the new worlds, but that was a secondary
parallel motive. It is commonly theorized that the "Conversion" motive was, in addition to controlling the native populace, something of an excuse to
give the Sovereigns a HIGHER Reason than Greed for their efforts.
Make no mistake, though, GREED was the Number One Reason.
BTW, Jingoistic MAY not have been the Best adjective for your insult. Egocentric (among others) would probably fit better.
But, believe whatever you want, regardless of facts. Some people think that they're Napolean or Christ. It doesn't mean I have to believe it.
Scientific and Technological Progress IS the Hallmark of Civilization.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sure it will come as no surprise that I have long considered Ayn Rand one of History's greatest Philosophers.
[Edited on 6-9-2007 by MrBillM]
|
|
|
Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
Posts: 2962
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: Sunset Beach
Member Is Offline
Mood: Just dancing through life
|
|
Mr. Bill
Just an observer here........will there be a fourth and fifth 'last' comment coming soon to this..........................................Hope not!
I am also an admirer of Ayn Rand.............I guess I just read her differently.
[Edited on 6-9-2007 by Baja Bernie]
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
|
|
|
MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
Member Is Offline
Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
|
|
Seeking Fellowship with the Dings
Since a recurrent theme uttered by the Left frequently (in defense of their Comrades) is "Changing your mind in view of events indicates a mature
thought process" or words to that effect, I am merely conforming to that rational process.
|
|
|
amir
Senior Nomad
Posts: 559
Registered: 5-4-2007
Location: Todos Santos, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: chiropractic
|
|
Conforming to a rational process, MrBM? Am I reading this right?
No, no, no, my mistake. You speaketh with a forked tongue.
But who knows - we all change when we grow up...
|
|
|
Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
MrBillM wrote:
"I readily admit that I DO have a degree of contempt for the lack of technical prowess demonstrated by those native peoples. We need only compare
those societies to that of Europe, Asia and even Saharan Africa at any given time in recorded history to know that they were woefully backwards."
"Since a recurrent theme uttered by the Left frequently (in defense of their Comrades) is "Changing your mind in view of events indicates a mature
thought process" or words to that effect, I am merely conforming to that rational process."
You still deny the technical prowess of indigenous peoples of Mesoamerica even in the face of powerful information to the contrary.
You still denigrate the inhabitants who predated those from Europe as being backward even in the face of clear information related to their
linguistic, architectural and social development and achievements.
MrBillM wrote:
"BTW, Jingoistic MAY not have been the Best adjective for your insult. Egocentric (among others) would probably fit better."
Ego and Ethnocentric I think. I give you points for the introspection sufficient for the insight related to your Egocentricity. While you are engaging
in the self analysis, I would also suggest that you consider the possibility of hubris.
Iflyfish
|
|
|
MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
Member Is Offline
Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
|
|
And ON and ON and ON
It's amazing (but common) to see how words can be cherry-picked to come to a conclusion different from what is actually said, but I'm used to it from
the Comrades.
1. I haven't addressed the accomplishments and achievements of the American Aborigines at all other than placing a RELATIVE value
assessment in comparison with the Contemporary and Earlier European, Asian and North African cultures. When judged in RELATIVE
terms, it is impossible to deny those cultures were more advanced than the Aborigines. You can defend that difference, as written earlier, by saying
that those cultures relative proximity to each other resulted in a sharing of knowledge giving them an advantage. That's fine. I would give that
argument some weight. In making that argument, you are affirming that such an undeniable gap existed.
2. I suppose we could engage in a cultural tit-for-tat where you could post an archaeological or sociological artifact from a specific Pre-Columbian
American period and I could counter with one from Europe, Asia or North Africa. I'm confident that I could find superior examples.
3. Egocentric works fine. The Greatness of man results from the Ego. As far as Hubris goes, I don't think it's a matter of
Arrogance, simply a matter of confidence in factual analysis. Ethnocentric doesn't apply either, except as another insult. It ignores the fact that
I'm not claiming that only my Ethnicity had achieved such superior progress. Note that I included Asia and Saharan Africa.
Call it whatever you want. I'll assign that opinion whatever little I want. Everybody goes away happy.
|
|
|
Gnome-ad
Nomad
Posts: 156
Registered: 6-4-2007
Location: Todos Santos, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: Okey-Dokey
|
|
Wow! I’m gone for a day or so and the thread increases its knots of words and becomes ever more interesting. I am thrilled to read all the wisdom and
information here that I was hoping to find on this board. I would say, too, that MrBillM’s attitudes and EGO have added to this thread for me, for
without him would we all have been called to add all the profoundly interesting and informative items that we have? Perhaps, but I still will say
thank you, MrBillM.
I have frequently found myself expressing my opinions and beliefs more clearly after being challenged. As MrBillM is comfortable in his world, viewed
through his glasses, I am comfortable in mine. On this forum I get to understand better the views with which I do not agree and to hear eloquently
expressed the views which resonate more with my core. There have been times when certain individuals have been threatening or bullying on other
threads, but I do not find MrBillM to be either. While he may not be totally respectful, since he disagrees so deeply, he has not resorted to long
harangues, thankfully.
I have kept on my wall for years a National Geographic poster of The Known Universe just to keep some perspective. I long ago came out of my religious
torpor and belief in American superiority in all things to view the planet and all the people on it to be as intricately connected as the cells of my
body. Some of my cells create my eyes and my brain and my heart, while others are involved with processing excrement. If they could speak, I’m sure
each would assert that its function was the most important correct one, if they somehow lost sight of their interconnectedness. I defend the right of
my middle finger to rise in salute while my heart breaks at all the fear and anger in the world. If the universe is also so connected, then perhaps
the earth only represents a tear falling from the eye of the creator.
As I and others have written on this thread, the indigenous people of the Americas are so much more than the stereotypes that are so easy for some to
believe in and espouse. They still, after all the thievery of, and misery caused by the conquerors, have much wisdom to impart and the kindness and
heart to still try to do so. They are aware that The Great Spirit is not a capitalist, a communist, a lefty, or right-wing. The Great Spirit is not
Catholic, Protestant, Hindu or Sufi. The Great Spirit imbues all of humanity and the earth, including the animals and all creatures, even the
mountains, the rivers and the oceans, with spirit. Some may view this as animistic or ignorant or simplistic. Simplistic? I don’t think so. The web of
life on this planet is so far from being simple and is so intricately woven. It always astounds me that some ultra-religious people who believe in God
in the traditional sense are the ones who deny the negative impact humans can have on the wonders of life by our employment of free will in the
destructive process. So, I am heartened that some of us attempt to listen to and understand the people who are more connected to the earth. If we
don’t live here, where will we take up residence? I believe that there is much wisdom in the world, hidden away in many places including (but not
limited to) small villages and pueblos on every continent, not just the Americas. Thanks to the internet, perhaps in the future, that wisdom will
become the prevalent mind-set rather than the drive of the few in charge for MORE.
So Baja Nomads – write on!
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well. - Ancis
|
|
|
Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Gnome-ad wrote:
"I long ago came out of my religious torpor and belief in American superiority in all things to view the planet and all the people on it to be as
intricately connected as the cells of my body. Some of my cells create my eyes and my brain and my heart, while others are involved with processing
excrement. If they could speak, I’m sure each would assert that its function was the most important correct one, if they somehow lost sight of their
interconnectedness. I defend the right of my middle finger to rise in salute while my heart breaks at all the fear and anger in the world. If the
universe is also so connected, then perhaps the earth only represents a tear falling from the eye of the creator.
Man that is well said! Saludos
MrBillM has stimulated some really great dialogue for sure.
The Baja ain't just about sand and cactus!
Iflyfish
|
|
|
dr650
Junior Nomad
Posts: 33
Registered: 4-17-2007
Member Is Offline
|
|
I have read this thread with great interest. I want to particularly recognize the timeless and patient eloquence that has unfolded from the women of
this forum in response to Mr. Bill's myopic and racist insanity.
They have factually presented pertinent information ... much like they would to a small child ... that has knocked Mr. Bill sideways from his trike.
Mr. Bill is a knowledgeable man. He has gifted use of the English language that he wishes all to see. And yet he continues to peddle madly around in
circles spewing dust, throwing fits, and getting nowhere. Even now, he clutches to his shallow beliefs in some futile attempt to feel masterful,
to feed the need for feeling right, to win the war. Let him sleep. He has a hard day every day, and so many miles to wander.
Murphy
|
|
|
Gnome-ad
Nomad
Posts: 156
Registered: 6-4-2007
Location: Todos Santos, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: Okey-Dokey
|
|
Iflyfish – thank you. I have enjoyed your posts as well. Keep up! 
dr650 - I was excited to get my avatar on the forum tonight since I had enough posts. When I read your post I had to laugh that I had picked this
piece of my art to represent me. Hmmmm, are you psychic? Is this co-incidence once more on the forum, or a plot of some kind? 
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well. - Ancis
|
|
|
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65304
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
Pre-mission or pre-European Native Americans (Indians) did leave us beautiful and interesting rock art in Baja that we enjoy finding and viewing
today!
|
|
|
smlslikfish
Junior Nomad
Posts: 75
Registered: 12-30-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: La Costilla Bound
|
|
Can't we all just get along?
I personally have found this topic enlightening. The differing wiewpoints say more about the authors than anything else. People will always have
differences of opinion, but I for one appreciate a well thought out point of view and have seem some on both sides of this discussion. Why the need to
attack? Does it really matter?
|
|
|
MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
Member Is Offline
Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
|
|
Extending Gratitude to the New Guy
dr650.
It is always refreshing to find a voice in the opposition who confirms my convictions. in this case, dr650 manages to add an irrational invective to
the discussion. Once again uttering a counterpoint for those on the Left who decry personal invective by those who share my viewpoint. Those "Gracious
and Caring" who support said Rational and Civil discourse are, once again, confronted by one of their own giving the lie to that position.
From dr650:
............"in response to Mr. Bill's myopic and racist insanity."
...........yet he continues to peddle madly around in circles spewing dust, throwing fits, and getting nowhere. Even now, he clutches to his shallow
beliefs in some futile attempt to feel masterful"........
Let it be noted that nowhere does he/she address a single point addressed to the discussion, but rather devotes his/her contribution to personal
insult.
That small contribution stands in stark contrast to "Gnome-ad" who has presented the most articulate and gracious disagreement with my opinions.
Thanks again dr.
[Edited on 6-10-2007 by MrBillM]
|
|
|
Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
|
|
One man's art...
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Pre-mission or pre-European Native Americans (Indians) did leave us beautiful and interesting rock art in Baja that we enjoy finding and viewing
today! |
Looks like pre-gang graffiti to me. All you need is a sandblaster and...good as new. 
|
|
|
Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3397
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy!
|
|
Bahiamia--I have to take some exception to your statement about the Indians not even wanting to "clear a field for planting" due to it being
irreverrant. At least the plains Indians were well known to light massive prairie fires to create better grazing for deer and buffalo. The Indians
around Jamestown cultivated crops, as did the Hopi.
That said, they did have an intense connection with the earth and generally only took what they needed to survive. Their mythologies were some of the
deepest and most meaningful I've ever read...masterpieces I think, on par with the best of the Greek and Hindu stories. Just because they weren't
written down doesn't diminish the magnitude of the wisdom.
|
|
|
toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Pre-mission or pre-European Native Americans (Indians) did leave us beautiful and interesting rock art in Baja that we enjoy finding and viewing
today! |
Looks like pre-gang graffiti to me. All you need is a sandblaster and...good as new. |
Not academy trained, huh? Just think, when the archaeologists and aliens uncover our era, you and I will be represented by gang graffiti. God! How
primitive we must have been!
In support of some of the posters here, who's to say that there weren't cave dwelling gangs despoiling rocks and consequently giving civilization a
false impression (according to our judgment)?
Now, if I could just get my tongue out of my cheek (it stiffens with excitement whenever I read bilious right wing positions), I think I will go back
to bed.
|
|
|
bahiamia
Nomad
Posts: 143
Registered: 12-16-2004
Location: Bahia de los Angeles
Member Is Offline
|
|
Reverence ...
Mexitron,
Perhaps I did not use the correct word to describe it, but this is what I was trying to get across:
"You ask me to plow the ground. Shall I take a knife and tear my mother’s bosom? Then when I die she will not take me to her bosom to rest. You ask me
to dig for stones! Shall I dig under her skin for her bones? Then when I die I cannot enter her body to be born again. You ask me to cut grass and
make hay and sell it, and be rich like white men, how dare I cut my mother’s hair? I want my people to stay with me here. Their spirits will come to
their bodies again. We must wait here in the homes of our fathers and be ready to meet them in the bosom of our mother."
- Wovoka, Paiute
In December 1982, on the high plains of Alberta, forty wise, respected and dedicated elders, spiritual leaders and community members from different
tribal societies across North
America came together for four days and nights of in-depth purposeful consultation. Our common purpose was to develop a model of human and community
development, inspired and guided by organizing principles, values, strategies and processes of sustainable change, healing and development rooted deep
in the natural laws that are at the inmost heart and core of tribal cultures throughout Mother Earth. Here is an excerpt"
"... Just look at what we do to our Mother Earth. We cut her hair where it should not be cut and rip up her skin where it should not be ripped up,
then we drill holes inside her and suck all of her blood out and put things inside of her and blow her bones up." He then looked deeply into the eyes
of my grandfather and shook his finger. "And what would happen if you did that to your mother?"
"I was born in Nature’s wide domain! The trees were all that sheltered my infant limbs, the blue heavens all that covered me. I am one of Nature’s
children. I have always admired her. She shall be my glory: her features, her robes, and the wreath about her brow, the seasons, her stately oaks, and
the evergreen — her hair, ringlets over the earth — all contribute to my enduring love of her."
George Copway (Kahgegagahbowh), Ojibwe
And Finally:
"POVERTY AND SIMPLICITY
We original Americans have generally been despised by our white conquerors of our poverty and simplicity. They forget, perhaps, that our religion
forbade the accumulation of wealth and the enjoyment of luxury. To us, as to other spiritually-minded people in every age and race, the love of
possessions is a snare, and the burdens of a complex society a source of needless peril and temptation… It is simple truth that we Indians did not, so
long as our native philosophy held sway over our minds, either envy or desire to imitate the splendid achievements of the white race. In our own
thought we rose superior to them! We scorned them, even as a lofty spirit absorbed in its own task rejects the soft beds, the luxurious food, the
pleasure-worshipping dalliance of a rich neighbor. It was clear to us that virtue and happiness are independent of these things, if not incompatible
with them… Furthermore, it was the rule of our life to share the fruits of our skill and success with our less fortunate brothers and sisters. Thus we
kept our spirits free from the clog of pride, avarice, or envy, and carried out, as we believed, the divine decree — a matter of profound importance
to us."
Found on this website
[Edited on 6-10-2007 by bahiamia]
|
|
|
Gnome-ad
Nomad
Posts: 156
Registered: 6-4-2007
Location: Todos Santos, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: Okey-Dokey
|
|
bahiamia ~ beautiful quotes and self expression. Thank you so much.
mexitron ~ yes, many of the tribal people were very much into managing and working with nature.
I read with interest in “1491” and/or “Aztec” about the masterful management of Nature by many indigenous peoples, particularly in the southern
climes, but also in the eastern present day U.S.: terracing, irrigation and aqueducts, hanging gardens, fish holding areas, soil enhancement, the
fantastic creation of islands in large inland lakes to suit their needs for self-defense and agriculture. They planted crops together that did not
deplete the soil – corn, squash and beans when grown in concert can be grown over and over without damage to the earth and provide a nutritious,
balanced and healthful diet. In Mexico City they engineered indoor baths and steam rooms, indoor toilets with running water to flush waste, complete
with sewer systems, while Europe slogged through the previous night’s slops on the streets and went unwashed for months.
But while Europeans had chite on their shoes, they did have books, though few could actually read them. Only the elite could read the codices of the
natives of present day Mexico as well. I’m off track a bit here because I’m comparing apples and oranges. The act of comparison begs the question –
which was the “superior” way of being. So, which do you prefer – apples or oranges? I think they are both wonderful fruits and I refuse to vote for
one or the other as better. I embrace and appreciate both for what juicy, positive things they have to offer. I simply marvel at the great diversity
of it all and am thankful that we can see some examples here in Baja of the people who were here before us.
Were they gangs marking their territory with an early form of tagging? Were they family units recording a good day of fishing or hunting? Were they
shamans making entreaty for blessings from their various gods? I don’t know, maybe they were some, none or all of my suggestions. I do know that we
greatly enjoyed our day trip outside Mulege to see cave paintings that seemed to have required some engineering to reach the heights they did and more
subtle rock carvings such as the great photo DavidK was good enough to share. Maybe the feat of engineering of early Baja nomads was to pile up a
bunch of rubble so they could paint way, way up there and then remove the rubble. Whatever it was it took imagination and tenacity. Some legends say
they were a race of giants – that’s why they could do it. Perhaps they did it because they had too much time on their hands and just wanted to leave a
message for the next folks to come along … perhaps we continue their humble beginnings with our postings. I know I enjoy carving my words
electronically – so much easier on the hands! 
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well. - Ancis
|
|
|
Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
Posts: 2962
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: Sunset Beach
Member Is Offline
Mood: Just dancing through life
|
|
A slightly different view
I have been reading the post on this thread for quite a while and in fact have described myself as an observer and that I have remained until now. I
had held my tongue because I was hoping Lee, bajalera, would chime in with the knowledge that she possesses in abundance about not only the Indians of
Baja and how they were treated by those enlightened purveyors of death who came to all of Latin America and Mexico.
Of course I am speaking of those compassionate priests who represented the most intellectually advance nation in Europe. These learned men accompanied
the military arm who conquered in the name of the Kings and Queens where have been thoroughly certified as the most deranged folks in all of Europe.
These nutcases came to Spain other parts of Europe and had so much regard for their subjects in Spain that they left only eight million alive out of
the twenty million they acquired by marriage.
Mr. Bill has it exactly right when he says that these representatives of the Kings of Spain sought only to accrue gold and power. Their treatment of
the natives of the Americas is well documented, They had no need to doff their helmets to Attila the Hun nor to Genghis Kahn. They killed with
equally savage abandoned and no one in Europe found anything wrong in their behavior.
The priest, now that is an entirely different story. They came not for riches, although many were swayed, no they came to convert the savages. What
they found absolutely amazed them. They found cities much larger than any in Europe with pharmacy’s that were much more extensive and well stock so
much so that one wrote home to explain that there was no need to send medical supplies with the fleets because what they found here was superior to
that available anywhere in civilized Spain.
They found books and a calendars which they could not read. They also found religious teachings and knowledge of the stars that threatened them to the
degree that much of this knowledge was either destroyed or sent back to Spain to be hidden in caves.
Never, in recorded history has a so advanced civilization been so thoroughly obliterated. It is only recently that these non-monetary treasures been
opened to scholars.
Basically, the same thing occurred when our ancestors destroyed much of the Indian cultures of North America. Nothing new there except that we didn’t
send gold or writings back to our mother countries.
Now to the Indians of Baja –but wait one minute while I back up—These backward Indians of all the America’s did contribute these minor foodstuffs to
the rest of the world. Potatoes, Tomatoes (remember those advanced folks in Europe thought it was a poison until someone explained that it had a very
lethal reaction with placed in pewter or lead based ware), Chili Peppers, Peanuts, Chocolate. Tobacco, Vanilla, Corn, Avocados, and many more.
The year was 1533 or there about when Cortez stumbled into the Sea of Cortez and found the natives harvesting pearls. It took the Spaniards a mere
150 years before they returned and attempted to set up a trading post in La Paz to take advantage of the pearl divers who had been diving in the area
for years to acquire pearls—for what this is not a activity that subsistence people engage. Most folks believe that that these natives had to be
shocked at the sight of the lumbering Galleons when they pulled into La Paz—not in the least they had been trading and interacting with Dutch and
English pirates for over 50 years. Other sources, including the pirates described the Guaycura Indians as being taller, more robust and fairer in
skin than the northern tribes. Other explorers described them as the most physically attractive Indians in the New World. The Jesuit priests were
far less kind and it is their words and it is those that most have relied on to seek an understanding of these long dead people.
These folks lived in an area that required no clothing and the sea provided them with a bounty there for the taking. They did n=have a skimpy form of
clothing. They had reed boats, fished with hook and line as well as with nets. They used harpoons and tridents and harvested nutria (sea otter) from
the sea. They also used nutria skins to store various food stuffs for long periods of time. These savages also used traps and a form of poison to take
fish fro the quiet lagoons. The people of San Ignacio still employ these tactics.
They also had boomerangs, bows, axes, stone arrowheads and stone pipes and they harvested tobacco to be used in the pipes. According to a Jesuit
priest (Consag,1751) they also had wooden tablets—‘inscribed’ that were placed in front of crude idols for some form of service (religious?). Very
few of these tablets have been found because the priests took it as their duty to search them out and destroy them.
Indian healers have been at work in Mexico since long before Cortez The list of herbs that these men and women still use today is almost endless but
I will point out just one—Daminana which is the basis for a potent drink and still served in the Cabo area. One of its original functions was to
increase the potential for procreation.
Now let’s compare these savages with our modern day ex-pats and I believe that you will see some of the same attitudes and behaviors……..
Look at the condition of the ex-pats torn and worn (almost out) shirts and shirts and their bare feet, consider the fact they take much of their
sustenance from the sea, that many of them fornicate almost at the drop of a hat (if they are wearing one) and that they are rather shiftless and that
many of them have a fondness for strong spirits. (am I in trouble now?)
So! I believe that it is the environment that determines mans willingness to expend his limited energies and that if he is relatively comfortable he
will not waste his energy on ‘work’. Why else are the gringos drawn in ever increasing numbers to this paradise where there is (still) little need
for work
My three cents which amounts to ‘my’ finding that everyone is somewhat correct in their positions here. I find the Native American approach has much
to recommend it to others who are seeking a less stressful life and one that is much more attuned to nature.
Come on Lee—you can say it far better then me.
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
|
|
|
DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Baja Bernie
Come on Lee—you can say it far better then me. |
I don't know about that, Bernie. You said it well.
Thanks.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4 |
|
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
