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DENNIS
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I just tried to post this so if it comes up again.............
During the Regan administration, mordida paid in the development of international business was made tax deductible. It probably still is.
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Dave
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We have a winner!
| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
in a society with a more relaxed work ethic |
In the PC contest. 
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Osprey
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Mexico is certainly one of those places where "it is easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission" -- that said, maybe someone can find the
survey/poll once posted by Stephanie Jackter (I can't locate it) where some 14,000 Mexicans were asked to state the annual costs of mordidas paid to
"get along". I think the guy on the street reported 8% of income while the poor posted 29% of annual income. No Gringos in that poll -- we usually
pay next to nothing, fight the system. Sometimes gringos pay it and really don't know what to call it. One of my neighbors took some city land from
our village street when he built a new wall -- the survey showed he actually owned it but it was a glaring change because it took a big chunk out of
the corner. His contractor arranged for a proper permit/sale document for $400 dollars. When he asked the contractor "why $400"?, the answer was
"there were four guys at the city who saw the new wall go up".
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Dave
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Yes...
| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
I was actually serious.
Do I still get a prize? 
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but in a different category.
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Slowmad
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Tough crowd.
The only requirement for love or chorizo is confidence.
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Oso
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Mood: wait and see
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Fred on global economics
Start with corruption. In many poor countries, virtually everything is for sale. You can bribe the cops to get out of a ticket or bribe them to beat
up an enemy, bribe a general in the army to overlook illegal logging, bribe anybody to do anything. The result is that really the country barely has
laws, which means that you can never be sure of your legal ground. Businesses need predictability.
Corruption exists in advanced counters, but there is less of it, and it tends to take organized form, as in campaign contributions, affirmative
action, and seats of boards of directors after leaving office.
Suspected Economic Law: The easier it is to bribe a working-stiff cop, the poorer the country.
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Oso
Suspected Economic Law: The easier it is to bribe a working-stiff cop, the poorer the country. |
Certainly poorer in spirit and character.
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amir
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Copied here from another thread because of its relevance to this topic:
Disclaimer: This next paragraph NOT written by Amir.
"Here far from the madding crowds there is NO engineer to go to...hmmmm..and heaven forbid we wouldn't want to feed the mordida machine but I gotta
tell ya all....a case of beer goes a LOOONGGG way and certainly speeds things up in a friendly manner...with a few cold ones you can get alot
done...like grading your lot...fresh fish brought to you...good advice...garbage pick up (my garbage guy doesn't drink but soda and cookies make sure
they come around alot.) Let's just say that on the long lists of things the officials have to do...with some booty your job gets put near the top of
the list which works for everyone...after all, it's all about priorities. I hate the mordida idea but it is how things have been done here for a very
long time and if you don't "cooperate" you are seen as muy codo (cheapskate) and ignorant or kinda rude and obviously arent in a hurry for your
project. So a little palm greasing is really just the price of doing business...kinda like a tax in a way...maybe we should call it the expediant
tax...definately warrants it's own forum and a worthy discussion for everyone. Yesterday, I needed a lot measured and our land guy was very busy but
for a hundred pesos, he drops everything and comes and does it...you do the math. Oh yeah, never heard of building codes here but probably has
something to do with gringos??? "
[Disclaimer added]
[Edited on 6-23-2007 by amir]
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bajaguy
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Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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Needed a hole for a temporary power pole on my construction project here in the states. Local power company was installing poles along the street, but
told me they couldn't drill on private property.
Left a case of Bud Light where I wanted the hole, and went to town........2 hours later returned, and admired my new "excavation".............
It's all good!!!!!!
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amir
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Mordida, like so many other words, can have a lot of connotations.
I don't advocate illegal behaviors and many mordidas fall into that category.
Lencho, Oso and others in this thread have listed activities that can be lumped in the category of mordidas; some are more acceptable than others. I'm
sure we can come up with many more mordida varieties that would fill several pages.
There are more "benign" forms of mordida, like what I was talking about that started this thread. Literally "a bite", it is a charge, a fee, a bonus.
I also called it a gift, to facilitate and to grease the wheels. It may seem to be more prevalent in poorer countries, but this happens all the time
even in developed rich superpowers, they just call it something else and they have more zeroes.
The recipient of the mordida has something you want, and you have something he wants. Usually there are societal rules that guide these exchanges in
acceptable ways, but people are very ingenious everywhere and they find ways to get "preferential" treatment. We all have favorites and we make
choices in our priorities, and when a little money exchanges hands those choices can be better manipulated. But this can get out of hand very quickly,
and it often does, and that is why most people abhor this type of system.
A tip, a gift, a perk, even a "please" and a "thank you" can also have a manipulating effect. I guess the trick would be to know when you are crossing
the line and breaking the law when you are offering, or are requested money or anything else to obtain preferential treatment of any sort.
--Amir
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rob
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Dennis,
Last time I looked it was a federal offence for a US Corporation to pay a bribe - the computer company I worked for in another life could not set up
shop in Indonesia because we simply could not do day-to-day business WITHOUT paying "commissions" - it was how the bureacracy received their income.
Different strokes . .
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DENNIS
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rob----
Thanks for the update. I remember getting my information from the newspaper at a time when I didn't question them. Should'a known.
Then again, Regan days were different.
Quien Sabe?
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longlegsinlapaz
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
| Quote: | Originally posted by amir in another thread
Just a little mordida, a little bite, a gift. But NOT "to look the other way," as you say, but to facilitate the process and grease the wheels, so to
speak... |
This comment brings out an interesting facet of the mordida which I haven't seen discussed here. Sometimes it's the price one pays to
convince a power figure not to do his job; to a cop, for example, to let you off on a violation you clearly committed. But as often as not, it's an
extra little encouragement for a bureaucrat to simply do his job properly. This seems strange to folks from certain cultures (I've
heard of places where waiters are insulted if you offer them a tip), but in a society with a more relaxed work ethic it makes some kind of sense...
--Larry |
In MY dictionary:
MORDITA: An incentive (usually monetary) to get someone to NOT do something legally required within the scope of their job or
authority...or to get someone to do something specifically NOT legally required within the scope of their job description; including circumventing the
process & time flow. Foolish me....I thought their salary & job description paid them to "facilitate the process & grease the wheels" on
an ongoing basis!
Am I all alone here in recalling the stand that Fox took regarding "mordita" or "the bite"? 
All the service providers I've encountered are paid a salary, as Lencho said, to simply do his job; paying mordita to get someone to
deviate from their job description is not something I'm willing to do for several reasons....they are getting paid to do their job,
their REQUESTING mordita is illegal, their ACCEPTING mordita volunteered is illegal; either way, it puts BOTH of us in a position of doing something
illegal! They face losing their job & jail time. We face legal proceedings & potential fines, jail time and/or deportation. People
accepting mordita for doing their job are "double dipping". When faced with the option between "socially accepted norm" versus the law, the law wins
in my book! Continuing to pay mordita encourages Mexican employers to continue to under-pay their workers at all levels. I feel mordita is an
inherent cultural problem; this has become a society which EXPECTS workers to subsidize their salaries with mordita, and it's going to take
generations for the pendulum to swing the other way.  Especially in an society
with a "relaxed work ethic", continuing to pay mordita only perpetuates the something for nothing mentality, this country has yet to discover the
benefits of pay based on merit; novel approach that that may be! 
Morditda negatively effects YOU too! Think about it...you have a request in for something...anything...you've waited patiently or impatiently for
your request to be processed...it takes six months...because those paying mordita keep getting preferential treatment over you!  IMHO, people who pay mordita are SELFISH!! They only think & care
about their own interests, they don't give a damn about the legal ramifications to anyone, nor do they care about anyone who had their requests
submitted before them! "Money talks" alright! But have you ever stopped to LISTEN to what it's saying about you & how you chose to use it??
PROPINA: A tip/gratuity/bonus/gift offered UNEXPECTEDLY after the fact for good service rendered.
I DO believe in propina, but only when it's MY idea, I won't pay propina when it's REQUESTED!
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DENNIS
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I tip for good service...........nothing else.
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bajalou
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"PROPINA: A tip/gratuity/bonus/gift offered UNEXPECTEDLY after the fact for good service rendered.
I DO believe in propina, but only when it's MY idea, I won't pay propina when it's REQUESTED!"
Try telling that to the restaurant manager in the US when you have a party of 8 or more. Try getting any service at all from a waiter that you didn't
tip enough last time you were in the place.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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Mango
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| Quote: | Originally posted by soulpatch
| Quote: | Originally posted by bajaguy
Needed a hole for a temporary power pole on my construction project here in the states. Local power company was installing poles along the street, but
told me they couldn't drill on private property.
Left a case of Bud Light where I wanted the hole, and went to town........2 hours later returned, and admired my new "excavation".............
It's all good!!!!!! |
When I ran a tree crew for the City of 'snard years ago a guy in Mandalay bay where we were working for a few days had a few branches laying around
that he needed disposing of. He offered us some money but we told him " no, can't do that!". He then iced up some beers for us at the end of the day
and dragged his stuff over to our brush pile and we just tossed it in w/our stuff.
10 seconds work and a few refreshed workers after 5. |
Moral to the story:
Beer > Money
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Lee
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What's the definition of is?
| Quote: | Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
IMHO, people who pay mordita are SELFISH!! They only think & care about their own interests, they don't give a damn about the legal ramifications
to anyone, nor do they care about anyone who had their requests submitted before them! "Money talks" alright! But have you ever stopped to LISTEN to
what it's saying about you & how you chose to use it?? |
A little heavy handed, aren't you? Do you really think anyone paying mordida is perpetuating anything not inherent in that culture? Do you hold
Mexicans to the same standard it sounds like you're targeting gringoes with? I think a Mexican reading your words will scratch their heads and
think: loco gringa. Whatever.
| Quote: | Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
I DO believe in propina, but only when it's MY idea, I won't pay propina when it's REQUESTED! |
Guess you haven't been to a restaurant up North in a large party lately. The tip is automatically added into the bill -- generally 15%+. Just
want to keep customers honest. Sounds like mordida to me. Aren't the staff already paid a salary?
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bajalou
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Not much different than the US State Department - They have a job of issuing passports. But they aren't in any hurry so if you want to go to the head
of the line just fork over another $60.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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amir
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Location: Todos Santos, BCS
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| Quote: |
... the US State Department - They have a job of issuing passports. But they aren't in any hurry so if you want to go to the head of the line just
fork over another $60. |
Aha! Mordida! And in the US! And by the US Government!
So, that's what I was saying: In the US it's called something else, and it is a lot more institutionalized and a lot more entrenched than in Mexico.
In Mexico you pay the mordida to the guy at the bottom, not the guy at the top. And my opinion, I rather give it to the guy at the bottom. He will buy
shoes for his kids, or flowers for his wife, or he will treat his friends to beer, or whatever. This guy receiving the mordida supplements his meager
income with a few pesos; he recycles this money locally, probably spends it in the barrio's tiendita.
On the other hand, when you pay "fees" and "taxes" to the higher echelons, they use that for much more nefarious political and social reasons,
sometimes very far removed from your own beliefs and support.
Just like we would expect "foreigners" to obey the laws of the USA when they migrate to The States, and just like we, as Gringos, are expected to
leave our culture north of the border and obey the rules and customs of our host Mexican country when we are down here, we better learn about
mordidas, because that is just the way of life here and that is how certain things get done.
Longlegs, if you don't like it, don't do it. But don't try to change a culture because you have some problem with some aspects of it.
--Amir
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longlegsinlapaz
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Lee
| Quote: | Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
IMHO, people who pay mordita are SELFISH!! They only think & care about their own interests, they don't give a damn about the legal ramifications
to anyone, nor do they care about anyone who had their requests submitted before them! "Money talks" alright! But have you ever stopped to LISTEN to
what it's saying about you & how you chose to use it?? |
A little heavy handed, aren't you? Do you really think anyone paying mordida is perpetuating anything not inherent in that culture? Do you hold
Mexicans to the same standard it sounds like you're targeting gringoes with? I think a Mexican reading your words will scratch their heads and
think: loco gringa. Whatever.
Lee, Heavy handed? Maybe...I guess it depends on your perspective...I prefer to think that I'm firm in my beliefs. If you'll go back & re-read,
I DID say: "I feel mordita is an inherent cultural problem; this has become a society which EXPECTS workers to subsidize their salaries with
mordita, and it's going to take generations for the pendulum to swing the other way." And my comments were NOT restricted to gringos! I
guess any of the Mexicanos on the site have as much a right to call me a loco gringa as you do! This thread is all about expressing our own
individual thoughts & feelings.
| Quote: | Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
I DO believe in propina, but only when it's MY idea, I won't pay propina when it's REQUESTED! |
Guess you haven't been to a restaurant up North in a large party lately. The tip is automatically added into the bill -- generally 15%+. Just
want to keep customers honest. Sounds like mordida to me. Aren't the staff already paid a salary?
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You guessed right!! I haven't been north of Constitution for 4 years! But I do
tip for food service, according to the level of service. What I was referring to here is when I'm solicited for a propina to provide a normal level
of service, somewhere other than a restaurant.
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