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oldhippie
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Jerry, there's no one you can trust. I was thinking that scientific studies done by experts with no vested interest might be a good source of
information but as lencho implied, the studies might be paid for by the developers themselves.
There's one important thing that is known and everybody agrees with. There is not enough water to support the planned development and Loreto Bay has
acquired the rights to what water there is in the aquifers. And, NOBODY knows the recharge rate of the aquifers. If the development goes as planned,
there is a large probability that the aquifers will be drained and then all water will be trucked in or produced by desalination. Both of these
options will lead to expensive water and place a large burden on all, especially the natives.
Another known fact is that addition of 10s, probably 100s of thousands of people will pollute the area. Afterall, everybody takes a crap every day and
fills up a garbage can at least once a week.
Most of the time these are necessary problems that need solving. But Loreto Bay and the other tourist developments of huge proporations are not
necessary. I have no problems with small developments.
King Butterfield needs to be roped in and dethroned. In addition to all the land they have purchased, they own the water rights and also are going to
be the owners of the wind generation electric utility that is being built on the other side of the peninsula. Is there anything to stop them from
building an oil burner when they realize that solar energy (winds are produced by the sun's alternating warming and cooling of the atmosphere) is a
supplement, not a replacement for fossil fuel. So they own the land, they own the water, and they own the electricity. In addition, as stated in their
last press release, they're sticking their nose into the town's education and medical institutions. Do you think they're donating money with no
strings attached?
Therefore, take your monthly income and have it directly deposited into the treasury of the Kingdom of Butterfield and be ready for ordinances that
control your behavior. I think I read it's illegal to own a car in Loreto Bay. What's next?
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capt. mike
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some mex workers in los cabos and cabo were interviewed on TV the other day - they are now making more money at the developments, construction mainly,
than they were in US as illegals. good for them.
and several said they would rather be living and working in mexico than in US.
so - could this be a good thing? the mex gov't finally creating economic opportunity for their people instead of turning a blind eye to the problem of
their people flocking to US in search of a brighter future?
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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oldhippie
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Capt. Mike that's an excellent point and well taken. It's good news that the construction jobs in Cabo are producing satisfied workers. Thanks for an
opposing view that makes sense. There haven't been many. Although using Cabo to make your point weakens it a bit. Cabo is the epitome of
out-of-control excess.
I guess my response goes back to the intractable problem of the insufficient water supply in Loreto and the pollution that will result from these very
large scale developments. So, eventhough jobs are real important, there are other real important considerations.
I think smaller, dispersed vacation hotels and homes are a very reasonable thing and would have a positive impact for all involved. Small amounts of
pollutants and resource utilization can be effectively managed.
The tourist industry is lucerative and can be done in an almost benign environmental fashion. I haven't been there in 10 years or so, but the British
Virgin Islands are/were a fine example. I believe the same to be true for Tahiti and the other most desirable vacation places.
But, Loreto Bay is nothing more than a housing tract of 6000 "homes" that are mediocre at best when compared to the REAL nice places to go. And they
are homes that the current residents, nor Mexicans from any other state for that matter, can afford. So you get a housing tract that the people that
need improved housing can't live in.
It's my opinion that the proposed development of the Loreto area needs to be scaled back significantly or the place will be ruined and nobody will be
happy. Loreto Bay would even benefit. The developers would have goals that have a better chance of being achieved and the residents would find the
place more enjoyable.
[Edited on 7-24-2007 by oldhippie]
[Edited on 7-24-2007 by oldhippie]
[Edited on 7-24-2007 by oldhippie]
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oxxo
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Why didn't Loreto Bay put in a de-sal plant to handle their water needs? It is my understanding that all the new developments in Los Cabos are
required to provide de-sal water for their needs.
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Sharksbaja
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Hang on a second
Smaller is better in many respects but if every Tom, Dick and Butterworth stuck a resort and golf course on EVERY undisturbed estuary the end would be
near, the sky would fall for many creatures. I thought breeding grounds were protected somehow. DUH! I guess they don't mean squat.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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oldhippie
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I'm not sure, but I don't think they have the permits to build a desal plant. I could be wrong but I think the last I read about it was that there was
a study being done and perhaps a contractor has been selected.
I wonder how many palms have to be greased to get these kinds of permits?
Mexican official: King Butterfield, we understand you are a VERY rich man and your development is very important to your success.
King Butterfield: Being the wise man he is, says nothing.
Mexican official: Well, that being the case, the mayor and the police chief would like some donations for use as they see fit before we can discuss
your permits. Surely you understand.
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oldhippie
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Sharks, I undersand your aquatic concerns. There are government/university environmental groups in baja and if there is any group of environmental
concerns that pull weight with governments and environmental scientists it is the group of concerns about animal breeding and migratory grounds, such
as estuaries. These issues attract the attention of international preservation groups that have many resources.
Let your concerns be known.
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wilderone
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Example:
LB fantasy: “…by build-out it is estimated that these estuaries will produce 25 tonnes of commercial fish per year.”
CONAPESCA – Mexican Fishing Regulations:
In ocean waters and estuaries the limit is a total of ten fish per day, with no more than 5 catches of a single specie, except of the species of
Marlin, Sailfish and Swordfish and Shark, of which only one specimen of either is allowed, and which counts as five toward the overall 10 fish limit,
or Dorado, Roosterfish, Shad, or Tarpon, of which only two samples of each specie are allowed, and which count as five toward the overall 10 fish
limit.
It is illegal to sell, trade, or exchange the fish caught.
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Roberto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
Example:
LB fantasy: “…by build-out it is estimated that these estuaries will produce 25 tonnes of commercial fish per year.”
CONAPESCA – Mexican Fishing Regulations:
In ocean waters and estuaries the limit is a total of ten fish per day, with no more than 5 catches of a single specie, except of the species of
Marlin, Sailfish and Swordfish and Shark, of which only one specimen of either is allowed, and which counts as five toward the overall 10 fish limit,
or Dorado, Roosterfish, Shad, or Tarpon, of which only two samples of each specie are allowed, and which count as five toward the overall 10 fish
limit.
It is illegal to sell, trade, or exchange the fish caught. |
Those are SPORTFISHING regs - they don't apply to commercial fishing.
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Russ
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oldhippie , I'd say your qualified to spout. And I'm not. But.... I don't want the waste in my back yard any more than Loreto Bay.
Oh, I quote from oldhippie, " Jerry, there's no one you can trust. I was thinking that scientific studies done by experts with no vested interest
might be a good source of information but as lencho implied, the studies might be paid for by the developers themselves."
[Edited on 7-25-2007 by Russ]
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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oldhippie
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Russ, touche. But there is no doubt the reactors shut down.
We can wait for this:
On Tuesday, the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, which oversees energy policy, said it would create an independent panel of academic experts
to investigate the damage at the Kashiwazaki plant in Niigata Prefecture. The panel’s findings will be presented to the International Atomic Energy
Agency, a United Nations group that will send its own inspectors to the plant, the ministry said.
If you want a nuclear debate, start an off topic thread.
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wilderone
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Under current regulations no commercial fishing vessels are allowed to fish for or possess protected species within the 50 mile conservation zones.
The only allowed fishing was under sportfishing bag limits. Commercial boats less than 30' can come within 10 miles of shore with longlines (section
4.2.1). Commercial longline boats between 30' and 89' can fish as near as 15 miles from the shore in the Sea of Cortes, and within 20 miles of the
west coast of the Baja (4.7.3).
Estuarine waters and wetlands provide critical nursery areas for many species of fish and shellfish. It has been estimated that approximately 98% of
the commercial fishery landings in the Gulf of Mexico are estuarine-dependent, i.e. dependent on estuaries for reproduction, nursery areas, food
production, migrations or shelter and for protection and food when they are juveniles.
So - Commercial fishing in a shoreline estuary?? Gill-netting, disturbing the fish hatchery, driving power boats through the estuary? Don’t think so.
Under what possible scenario would reaping 25 tons of fish per year from an estuary - itself protected by several Mexican entities - be possible or
environmentally responsible? What facts would contribute to the truth of LB's statements?
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oldhippie
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wilderone, could they be talking about the commercial fishermen taking the fish after they leave the conservation zones?
They have plans for 62 acres of estuaries.
http://www.loretobay.com/files/pdf/inaugural-sustainability-... page 14
I know little about this topic but I do know what an estuary is. It's where a fresh water river meets salt water.
Tell me, how swift is Rio Loreto running these days? Is there a river? Seems to be a necessary component of an estuary.
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wilderone
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oldhippie - maybe that is what they mean - maybe I misinterpreted. However, the statement still has no basis in fact. There is absolutely no time
period of when "build out" will occur, if ever. And, there are too many factors affecting the estuary and its success: the runoff from agriculture
and landscaping, silting from construction, pesticides and insectides they will use (all of the golf courses would also be completed at "build out" I
assume - irrigated with affluent and brine from the desal plant), and the viability of the estuary as a whole given that it is manmade, requires
flushing, etc.
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Don Alley
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
Under current regulations no commercial fishing vessels are allowed to fish for or possess protected species within the 50 mile conservation zones.
The only allowed fishing was under sportfishing bag limits. Commercial boats less than 30' can come within 10 miles of shore with longlines (section
4.2.1). Commercial longline boats between 30' and 89' can fish as near as 15 miles from the shore in the Sea of Cortes, and within 20 miles of the
west coast of the Baja (4.7.3).
Estuarine waters and wetlands provide critical nursery areas for many species of fish and shellfish. It has been estimated that approximately 98% of
the commercial fishery landings in the Gulf of Mexico are estuarine-dependent, i.e. dependent on estuaries for reproduction, nursery areas, food
production, migrations or shelter and for protection and food when they are juveniles.
So - Commercial fishing in a shoreline estuary?? Gill-netting, disturbing the fish hatchery, driving power boats through the estuary? Don’t think so.
Under what possible scenario would reaping 25 tons of fish per year from an estuary - itself protected by several Mexican entities - be possible or
environmentally responsible? What facts would contribute to the truth of LB's statements? |
The Shark Norma modifies the 50 mile rule, letting "commercial" vessels in closer. Also, small pangas can fish in close. It's those boats that conduct
the commercial fishing in the Bahia de Loreto area. The use of gillnets along the peninsular shoreline inside the park is allowed and is commonplace.
If it is possible to produce 25 tons of additional fish, there are commercial fishermen ready, willing and able to harvest them, and compliant
regulators to allow them to.
Not long ago at a public meeting in Loreto a Mexican fisheries scientist had this to say about the baseline data on fisheries in the Loreto area:
"There isn't any. No data." So unless data collection improves quickly there will be no baseline to measure or verify claims of production of
additional fish. And should LB or others manage their habitat in such a way that produces more fish, commercial exploitation of that increase would be
a very inefficient use, and certainly not a use that would benefit Loreto Bay's business. I suspect that they have simply used a poor example here to
illustrate their hoped for increase in biomass.
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Roberto
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Exactly - a lot of the commercial fishing, especially in "local" areas is conducted by pangas, and these regularly gillnet, trap, and longline both
inshore and further out.
Commercial fishing in Mexico is not done only by large long-range boats, especially the kind of fishing being discussed here.
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oldlady
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Dave,
best giggle I've had today....a caballero is in the middle of pullin' wire at my casa, let you know if he figures out what the green ones are for.
We had a very interesting discussion about drain vents and atmospheric pressure.
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oldhippie
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Thanks Hose A.
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Al G
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jerry
wilderone tell me who you trust as far as loreto bay goes??
tell me something positive mr doom and gloom |
The best that can be said is, you have been had...yes even bent over had. I do not know your experience with developers, but I can tell you their
goal...Seperate you from your money without doing ANYTHING that they promise...nothing
I read their statement of what they would and would not do...
It is a simple matter...
They have the right to use the resource that are there...period
That is what they will do....
If they make a promise to do something...anything... in the world of development...that is the same as saying "I assure you I
will never do this"
If you think you own your home...forget it...you have only made a down payment. When the resources are gone, and believe me,
the developer will be gone too...you will start paying again.
The story about making water from thin air...read my lipps...a dehumidifier for a single family dewelling. Do you really think they
will buy one for each house...do you think they care if it works or not??? I laughed my butt off for a while...they were telling you up front they
never intend to do anything about the water issue, but you can buy one of these water makers if it makes you feel better about it.
I want you to understand...You will never be able to do anything about this....NEVER. Go home, stop your whinning. You have been had. Sorry...hope you
are not a owner
EDIT: damn old fingers 
[Edited on 7-26-2007 by Al G]
[Edited on 7-26-2007 by Al G]
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Al G
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Mood: Wondering what is next???
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"I want you to understand...You will never be able to do anything about this....NEVER. Go home, stop your whining. You have been had. Sorry...hope you
are not a owner"
I made this statement, because I do not believe there is anyone willing to organize a strike/movement to stop sales...your only hope.
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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