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DianaT
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Rock Writing ---
I enjoy old native american rock and cave paintings and have done some pretty good hiking to see some---
I love the autograph rocks on some of the old wagon train trails etc. I enjoy reading them.
The drawings on the walls of old buildings like the old prison in Mulege tell part of the history and are great, IMHO
I really enjoyed the walls of the New York subway (only saw the pictures) before they were painted over.
There are some designated graffiti walls that I really enjoy.
BUT, I really dislike the modern writings on rocks in places like Catavina. But then again, some of the modern advertising is creative.
I detest modern graffiti that just shows up, especially if it is on my property here in Imperial Beach---it gets painted over fast.
There is a lot more, but that is the idea---OH, BTW, this is not coming from someone with too much time on her hands, but from someone who is avoiding
doing some mundane chores. Besides, it is Nena's fault for posting those pictures of the Mulege Prison. It again raised my unanswered questions.
The final question for me is, when do writing and pictures before historical and interesting, and when does graffiti become story telling and art???
Diane
[Edited on 1-28-2008 by jdtrotter]
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Osprey
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That is a good/interesting question. John Wesley Powell who first explored the Grand Canyon in 1869 had only one arm. The Ute Indians who helped him
stay alive when he left the canyon also killed a couple of his party when they quit his team. I've seen their rock art showing him (minus one arm)
and some other drawings that were cuss words for white eyes. Not fit for this board. That was 140 years ago -- probably not enough time for true
antiquities. After reading "The Rocks Begin to Speak" I could actually follow along, find things the Indians were trying show others in the area. I
think stoning would be a proper punishment for marring true rock art like the stuff around Cataviņa.
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BAJACAT
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So you think in a few years, this could be history,or art.
Like if I care that this people where here,and have a urge of leaving somenthing to remember them.think about this, when all this rock art was
happening 10,000 years ago,,did the peolpe that make them where seen as vandals writting in the rocks and walls of caves.
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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DianaT
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Osprey---interesting. Also, I certainly also detest the marring of old rock art.
Bajacat---not all of what is accepted as a part of the historical record or as art is very old. I agree with you that the rock you show is ugly, but
will someone in the far future think so?
As one of my anthropology professors once said, if there appears to be no real explanation for something found, ah ha, it often becomes a religious
symbol.
One of my all time favorite books is Motel of the Mysteries by David Macaulay---don't know if it is still in print-- it is the intrepretation in the
far future of our civilization after it was destroyed in a flash.
Just my thoughts
Diane
Just checked, and yes the book is still available and not very expensive.
[Edited on 1-28-2008 by jdtrotter]
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Natalie Ann
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Many of the early rock paintings are considered to have been a form of communication in areas which might have been common crossroads for people of an
earlier time. The paintings now tell us where the fishing was good, what type of animals were hunted and how, and even the size of the people because
of areas where they left hand prints on the walls.
I find the early rock paintings very interesting. They tell a story. The marks on the rock shown by BajaCat have nothing to do with art nor
communication. Only history I can imagine them leaving is one of embarrassment for our fellow man.
(So to be clear... I'm saying I think that much of the early art is a form of "rock writing", as is the topic of this thread. Didn't have the written
language way back when, so they wrote with pictures. Then many moons later on you get the writing on the wall in the Mulege jail, as shown in my
photos.... a historical record, at the very least.)
Nena
[Edited on 1-28-2008 by Natalie Ann]
Be yourself, everyone else is already taken.
.....Oscar Wilde
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Barry A.
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My 2 cents:
Ancient writings of any kind fasinate me, even those, as Diane says, only 1 or 2 hundred years old. This is because it helps me to "connect" with
people who are now history.
When I beat my way thru the tamarisk on the Green River after disembarking from my canoe and saw "D. Julien 1836" written on the red rock wall, I
cannot tell you how thrilling I found that inscription. This inscription is believed to be the oldest "white man" inscription in the west, Julien
being a French voyageur who wandered the west way back when.
I have no similar wish to "connect" with people that are living now, and appear to have no respect for others property rights, or the natural scene,
and are only boasting of the fact that they even exist, and to heck with what others think.
barry
(edited to change the date of d. julien inscription to 1836, not 1829)
[Edited on 1-28-2008 by Barry A.]
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BAJACAT
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Thanks Diane,for the info.And have you notice in the board,their is alot post, about Rock art,and Petroglyphs.This should be Rock art&petroglyphs,
month..
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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DianaT
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Nena,
Some of old rock art like on the wagon train trails only tell the story of who passed there before----same with some famous old carved trees.
I agree that the rock Bajacat showed is quite ugly, but some of the modern ugly rock paintings do tell who was there and tell stories----some graffiti
is a form of communication --- some quite beautiful.
Not saying I like it, it just raises questions in my mind, especailly as to what future generations will think.
Diane
[Edited on 1-28-2008 by jdtrotter]
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BAJACAT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Natalie Ann
Many of the early rock paintings are considered to have been a form of communication in areas which might have been common crossroads for people of an
earlier time. The paintings now tell us where the fishing was good, what type of animals were hunted and how, and even the size of the people because
of areas where they left hand prints on the walls.
I find the early rock paintings very interesting. They tell a story. The marks on the rock shown by BajaCat have nothing to do with art nor
communication. Only history I can imagine them leaving is one of embarrassment for our fellow man.
Nena |
I agree you Nena,this is not art.But back 10,000 years this people never have any idea,and how their
paitings,will affect us,or how important they will be come,so who knows,that in 10,000 yrs,somebody will come to Laguna Hanson and discover this
rock,and will sherish it has ancient art,you never know..
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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Natalie Ann
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ok... you two are right... never know how the future will view this - and I am being judgmental.
There's a place outside my old home of Carbondale, Illinois... a park called Giant City, where there is a high ridge with a steep drop... one of those
spots where the Indians used to run the buffalo over the edge to kill 'em. Quite a large area of this high ridge was split apart into deep narrow
caverns and trail-like connections.
During the Civil War, armies from the South hid in these places... and their names, rank, home towns, and date they were there are still firmly etched
into the moss-covered rock. I loved to go there, for the feeling of those men and that era also stuck tight to the rock.
Probably when they scratched information into that rock it was pretty much the same as some of the graffiti which repels me today - Kilroy was here.
But it has a place in history... and it's possible one day someone will see valid history (or god) in BajaCat's first rock picture. Who am I to
judge?!
Nena
Be yourself, everyone else is already taken.
.....Oscar Wilde
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CaboRon
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Nena,
I saw your remark about being from Carbondale , ILL.
In 1969 I managed a band in San Francisco whose members were from Carbondale.
The name of the band was the "Devils Kitchen".... they said they took their name from a lake, I believe, near Carbondale.
We all lived in various apartments in a building on Fell street in San Francisco right at the end of the Panhandle.
Do you remember them, or are you in touch with any of them ?
Just wondering.....
In fact I still have a poster from one of our shows at the Family Dog on the Great Highway.
CaboRon
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BAJACAT
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Nena i see you didn't like my rock,so here is another rock pix.
[Edited on 1-28-2008 by BAJACAT]
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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Eli
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I hate graffiti.
I Love the painting of the Virgin of Guadalupe on the rock shear facing the highway on the South side of San Bartolo.
One of my art forms is to use a epoxy moldling clay to form faces integrated in small rocks.
Hummmmmmmmmm, who am I to judge; what is art? what is of historical value, guess I will have to ride with Tanto on this one, ya sabe, quien sabe.
Again proof positive, that I am just another bozo on the bus, ni modo.
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Natalie Ann
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Eli - nice to see you again... I was just thinking of you this morning. You are doing those little rock beings now? You know I dearly love the one I
that lives on my altar. Hope all is well with you, amiga. And oh yeah... I also love that rock painting of Guadalupe along the highway, always look
forward to seeing her.
BajaCat... oh yes, I like this rock picture a lot more. pretty rocks.
CaboRon... Devil's Kitchen, the lake - used to live just a nice walk from it. Don't know the band - I hadn't yet arrived in Carbondale in 1969. And
I didn't make it to the Bay Area until '79, likely long after your band's claim to fame. Still, most interesting to know. Small world, huh?!
Nena
Be yourself, everyone else is already taken.
.....Oscar Wilde
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wilderone
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" if there appears to be no real explanation for something found, ah ha, it often becomes a religious symbol."
Given that "religion" and "symbol" each are amorphous terms, to be interpreted by the beholder, then that statement becomes meaningless.
The graffitti today, taken in context with today's (21st Century) understanding of our natural resources, history and the "improvements" made over the
centuries - i.e., highways versus wagon trails, fences, buildings of worship, society, government - there is absolutely no need for vandals to
spraypaint anywhere.
Early explorers on horseback, sometimes the first white man or European explorer to come into an area on horseback or foot or boat, had something
important to say. It's stated simply and is not ugly and is respected because of the information it provides.
Scribbling with spraypaint borne of one's ego, and only ego satisfaction being the reason for the defacement, is a blow to the higher intelligence
mankind has ostensibly attained.
We have ostensibly learned to appreciate and respect our national parks, wilderness areas, and open spaces and thus, try to leave then as pristine as
we found them. Our open spaces now, compared to what the native americans had, is but a mere small fraction, and requires our attention to keep it
healthy, aesthetic and available in its most natural state for generations to come.
We no longer have to scribble a map on boulders for others to follow - we have maps, roads, highways, GPS.
Most of us no longer worship spirits who dwell within the earth, and try to coax them out for favors through our tribe shaman using pictographs and
petroglyphs in the ceremonies.
We no longer need to engage in ceremonies for fertility, bounteous crops, good weather, etc. - and paint symbolic figures to have such results
bestowed upon us.
We no longer need to record profound historical events by using the only permanent "blackboard" or "newspaper" available (rock faces).
We no longer need to mark our territorial boundaries or identify our tribe affilliation with figures on rock faces.
Therefore, ancient rock messages which had a legitimate purpose it its day, does not apply today. Todays graffitti has absolutely no correlation with
the ancient rock messaging of the past.
In sum, no, today's graffitti on rocks in areas where there should be none serves no legitimate purpose. It is a crime, nothing more. Stretching the
term "art" for art's sake as applied to graffitti, it should not be inflicted upon the general public on public land violating today's mores when it
has other acceptable venues.
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DianaT
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Wildrone,
You do have an interesting opinion and some strongly held convictions----
Diane
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vgabndo
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I don't have anything good to say about taggers. I have lived in fear of encountering someone in the process of vandalizing nature. It would be
difficult to not try to educate them. Given their lack of basic education, and their willingness to break the law, it would be dangerous to chide
them.
I could wish that their karma could be a bit more instant. I vote that when they paint on a rock, they turn around and find that the same inscription
has been painted all across the side of their car. How could they object?
The tagger mentality is one of the reasons I have never shared the location of the little treasure of rock art I know of between Mulege and Loreto
which has never been documented; at least to my knowledge.
Wilderone...you were writing at the same time I was. Very well put amigo.
I might note that in our little community, the children are allowed to tag the pavement in front of the high school, and a railroad overpass on the
side of town. As a community we have tacitly approved of these venues. Any other vandalism is considered a crime and is dealt with by the law.
[Edited on 1-28-2008 by vgabndo]
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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DianaT
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The morphing of threads is always interesting---------
time to get to those mundane chores
[Edited on 1-28-2008 by jdtrotter]
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Barry A.
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Vag----I love your second paragraph, and totally endorse the idea!!!
Wilderone------very well said, and I concur totally-----your depth of thinking here is right on point, and eloquently expands my thoughts
considerably-----thank you.
barry
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jdtrotter
The morphing of threads is always interesting---------
time to get to those mundane chores
[Edited on 1-28-2008 by jdtrotter] |
Diane------I am puzzled------I see no "morphing of thread" here------all comments seem to be right on point. What do you mean??
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