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smlslikfish
Junior Nomad
Posts: 75
Registered: 12-30-2003
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Mood: La Costilla Bound
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Mea Culpa
I stand corrected 
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gibson
Banned
Posts: 250
Registered: 2-6-2007
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Diver
Juan is a gentleman who would never ask for a tip and enjoys fishing over money. |
exactly. really feeling for this guy and his obvious culture clashing 
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pascuale
Nomad
Posts: 224
Registered: 2-20-2005
Location: Somewhere South
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Mood: Lets fish!
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If Juan is charging $100 bucks for fishing, ill be there soon. Best price in baja hands down. Thats awesome and hed at least get $40 tip from me.
Does $100 even pay for fuel? ****, ill be there asap. Palmas is like $250 +taxes +tip+lunches+2.50 for each beer put in the cooler, for a panga. Juan
is the man, but no Banana hammocks onboard.
Thanks for everyones opinions, good read and i hope everyone learned something.
have a nice day and wish me a happy 26th birthday
[Edited on 3-25-2008 by pascuale]
[Edited on 3-25-2008 by Hose A]
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pascuale
Nomad
Posts: 224
Registered: 2-20-2005
Location: Somewhere South
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Mood: Lets fish!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Diver
Now that you are out-of-the-closet smellyfish, it sure doesn't seem fair to pull Juan and Shari into your little rant. They are good folks that are
trying to adapt to their growing gringo clientel.
Juan is a gentleman who would never ask for a tip and enjoys fishing over money. Without his knowledge of where and when to fish, most of his clients
would have got bubkas.
To Pascaul also;
I have worked as crew on party boats when I was younger and expected less $ from life. I always enjoyed being on the water and the clients were just
part of the day - often a good part. Tips were good when they were good; more like an unexpected bonus. Seems like times have changed.
.
[Edited on 3-25-2008 by Diver] |
Whats changed...hmmm how much was a home in San Diego in the 70's, or 80's. Glad you didnt need the tips, but times have changed .
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makana.gabriel
Nomad
Posts: 115
Registered: 1-10-2008
Location: Honolulu
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Tipping
This is from a recent post by Rosana Hart in Jalisco. I'm sure anybody who reads this will be forever changed on how they view tipping in MX. It did
for me.
2 comments
Tuesday, March 18, 2008
There is Hunger Here
A Mexican friend of mine went to Soriana in nearby Chapala the other day. It's a box store with a large parking lot, and there are always several guys
there washing cars while you shop. We often get our car washed there.
When one of the men asked her if he could wash her car, she began by saying, "It's hardly worth it because of all the jacaranda trees where I live...
my car never stays clean." But when she glanced at him, the disappointment in his face caused her to change her mind and say "Sure, go ahead and wash
it."
When she was done with her shopping, she paid him what he asked, some 25 pesos, and she added a tip. The man's eyes welled up with tears and he told
her that he had had no work in two days and his children had not eaten.
Yesterday, Kelly and I did some shopping at SuperLake, a grocery store on the main highway in San Antonio Tlayacapan which caters to foreigners. I've
mentioned it before -- it's where I get a lot of things that a typical Mexican store doesn't carry, like tamari, brown rice, and black tea.
HPIM1247There is an indigenous woman beggar who is usually sitting on the sidewalk in front of SuperLake or the liquor store next door. I often give
her ten pesos and over time, we have developed a friendship. She has had some health problems which we have discussed, and she has showed me the
medications prescribed by the IMSS, the national health care system. Here is a photo of the two of us on the sidewalk in front of the community
bulletin board, taken with her permission.
So after hearing my friend's story about the man at Soriana, yesterday I squatted down and told my beggar friend that a Mexican had been talking with
me about how sometimes people here don't have anything at all to eat. Does this happen to her?
She nodded. On the days that she comes and begs, she can always eat something, but on the days she stays home, sometimes there is nothing to eat. She
said she has to pay, not for only food, but also for her rent and light bills, as well as bus fares, from what she earns begging. I know she lives a
bus ride away beyond Chapala someplace, not in the fancy high-rent districts.
Well, I wasn't born yesterday and I knew that many poor Mexicans eat a substandard diet. But I was a bit taken aback by total lack of food. I asked if
she had family that helped her. There was a bit of a catch in her throat as she said her daughter does sometimes. I got the feeling there was a sad
story there, so didn't pursue it. I asked if she got any money from the government and she was astonished at the idea.
I went into Tony's for lunch with friends, and told them what I've just written here. One of them said she never gives to beggars but will now.
Lakeside has a small contingent of regular beggars, and most of them are not whining... the ones in the more anonymous atmosphere of Guadalajara tend
to do desperate pleading which is pretty rare here. There's a blind man stationed in front of Tony's who speaks English and I often say hello as I
walk past him.
As I did my shopping a little later, splurging on a package of that nice Mexican brie I have just discovered and loading up on luscious golden mangos
that are now in season, I felt wealthy. As we put our groceries in the trunk of the car, I said hi to a fellow standing in the parking lot with his
dog. I had chatted with him before. He's American and had been singing quite a lovely song in front of SuperLake once, begging in that way. Yesterday
when I said hi to him, I reached in my purse for a coin. He said, "You gave me something before. I try not to ask the same people," and he went on to
mention that he is homeless, which didn't surprise Kelly or me. Haven't seen any other American homeless here. I gave him the coin anyway. Any hunger
is too much hunger.
[Edited on 3-25-2008 by makana.gabriel]
FAITH sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible!
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pascuale
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Location: Somewhere South
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Very true Makana, thanks for the story.
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vandenberg
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5118
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Location: Nopolo
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Mood: mellow
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Although we're drifting from the original subject, I like to respond to Makana's post.
Growing up in Holland as a youngster right after WW11,we had several beggars in our main shopping district, sitting on the cold pavement ,usually
under the big stores awnings. Crutches, eye patches, torn clothing and other forms of apparent poverty abound and selling pencils to get by in life.
Can't remember the exact reason, but some one observed one of them, after his "shift" crutched along for a few blocks, got in a car and left. Those
were the days that no one but the very rich or government officials had cars. Lucky to have a bicycle. They started investigating
those people and discovered that their average income approached 25000 guilders a year. Those were the days that the average workingman, like my dad,
struggled to take home 50 guilders a week.
Thought I bring this up to put all this in some kind of perpective.
[Edited on 3-25-2008 by vandenberg](spelling)
[Edited on 3-25-2008 by vandenberg]
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Martyman
Super Nomad
Posts: 1904
Registered: 9-10-2004
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People that have jobs that tipping is part of their income are very passionate on the subject. People like me who work a regular job with an average
wage are not passionate, and generally are confused about how much to tip in foreign countries.
I remember someone telling me "don't leave anything, they don't tip in Mexico"!!!
I am not a big tipper or a rich guy. Usually I leave 10% at a restaurant in Mexico or whatever change I have in my pocket and it is definately
related to how good the food/service was. I leave nothing if it was crappy.
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smlslikfish
Junior Nomad
Posts: 75
Registered: 12-30-2003
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Mood: La Costilla Bound
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Back to the subject at hand, I often ride my son's boat here in so cal, and often I'm allowed to ride for free or a reduced ticket price. When that
happens I leave the fare as a tip and help scrub the decks and bag fish etc. It's about showing your appreciation.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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When I was doing group therapy on my marathons I often did the following experiment. I had all members stand in a circle, reach in their pocket and
place in their hand an amount of money that they would be comfortable parting with. I then asked each person to put their hand with the money in the
center of the circle and with the other hand to take all of the money they wanted from other peoples hands. I had people keep "for real" the money
they extracted and then ask people to consider and discuss their process in this experiment. Did they take enough, not enough, "give too much", "take
to o much"......it was always interesting to me how much people's "script" played into this and how people tended to generate familiar feelings in
this situation. Some felt "ripped off" or that ait was "unfare" like they always felt in life, some felt "guilty" like they always did in their life,
some laughed and enjoyed themselves like they always did in their life, some were very analytic and saw it as a very interesting social experiment
with surprising and a potentially insightful outcome.
When I first did this experiment, as a participant, all of my typical or favorite bad feelings emerged in the context of this small experiment. Gave
me lots of pause and helped me to be clear about my own expectations and how much I am in charge of how things turn out for me.
Now there are cross cultural elements to this dialogue, that is clear, and I always try to get as clear as I can. I am not a Mexican and do not know
what the expectations are and the only way for me to find out is to either ask or be told. These expectations vary in different subcultures also in
Mexico. I have found it to be very different in border towns than in remote villages. In the north we are much clearer about these sort of
expectations in urban areas than in rural areas where kinship bonds are primary and people need to barter.
Iflyfish
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smlslikfish
Junior Nomad
Posts: 75
Registered: 12-30-2003
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Mood: La Costilla Bound
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I am not MINNOW
I just received an email from the minnow himself asking me to verify that I am not HE.... TIP YOUR CREW!!! 
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BajaWarrior
Super Nomad
Posts: 2307
Registered: 9-27-2006
Location: Mission Bay, San Diego. Playa Hermosa, San Felipe.
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Mood: Anxious to get south
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Smlslikfish,
If you don't know Juan and Shari, (I do), how do you know Juan is NOT being tipped?
Juan's prices are fair, and does deserve to receive a tip (I have) for good service.
It's all the other Pangueros that are charging too much!
P.S... Say hi to Minnow for me.
[Edited on 3-25-2008 by BajaWarrior]
Haven't had a bad trip yet....
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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One of my favorite c-cktail waitresses in a Las Vegas bistro seemed to be in a strange mood while working the bar; shaking her head, a funny smile on
her face. When I asked her wassup? she said "A guy just gave me a $100 tip and didn't pay for his drink!"
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Steve&Debby
Nomad
Posts: 335
Registered: 12-18-2007
Location: Colusa,California/ Percebu
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Hey Pascuale,I beg to differ with you,I am also in the pump service and repair buisness. I have never fixed a custom lunch but I sure have bought alot
of customers or potential customers lunch. I have been doing water well drilling and service and repair for 40 years and have never recieved a tip. I
am just like you,I do the best job possible and charge a fair price (that I can make a living on) with one big difference I DO NOT EXPECT A TIP and do
not think anything less of my customer
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13050
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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Well, I know Juan and I can tell you he rarely gets a tip. Fortunately today a client gave him a nice rapalla and some pliers wich he was very
thankful for. By the way, Juan just raised his price up from $75 because of complaints from other charter operators in this part of baja...ha..ha..I
sure wish clients would clean their own fish though...we're up at 6:00 getting the boat and gear ready, making lunches, launching boat etc etc...and
Juan's pretty bagged when they get back but still has to clean all the fish...I thought guides were paid to catch fish not clean them...my bad...I'm
thinking it might be a good idea to pay a kid to come after the charters and offer to clean their fish...everyone gets a bit then...spread the
wealth...Juan's sister often prepares the fish and delivers their dinner to the table of their rental house....for $8 a plate...nobody tips her
either. Juan would hate this discussion about tips cause he's mexican and they don't tip...cant...haven't ever done it...I just like to see fairness,
apreciation respect.
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soulpatch
Nomad
Posts: 404
Registered: 7-30-2005
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Aaagghhhhhh, market forces.
I guess this is where many of us would prefer to just have the desired amount known clearly up front. If he wants $100/day and gets it he should be
happy and everyone should walk away feeling fine. This is a one man operation. If he gets more or provides more services/fish cleaning etc to get more
then even better. He sounds like a pretty handy guy, I am sure he could make a little sign that states prices for all services besides the days
fishing. Hell, they do fuel surcharges, cleaning charges, bagging charges, lunch and beverage charges and probably many more I am forgetting about on
this side and everybody is aware when they use a certain service.
I believe that is an extremely long-winded way of saying "take the mystery out of it".
| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
Well, I know Juan and I can tell you he rarely gets a tip. Fortunately today a client gave him a nice rapalla and some pliers wich he was very
thankful for. By the way, Juan just raised his price up from $75 because of complaints from other charter operators in this part of baja...ha..ha..I
sure wish clients would clean their own fish though...we're up at 6:00 getting the boat and gear ready, making lunches, launching boat etc etc...and
Juan's pretty bagged when they get back but still has to clean all the fish...I thought guides were paid to catch fish not clean them...my bad...I'm
thinking it might be a good idea to pay a kid to come after the charters and offer to clean their fish...everyone gets a bit then...spread the
wealth...Juan's sister often prepares the fish and delivers their dinner to the table of their rental house....for $8 a plate...nobody tips her
either. Juan would hate this discussion about tips cause he's mexican and they don't tip...cant...haven't ever done it...I just like to see fairness,
apreciation respect. |
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13050
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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but there is such beauty in mystery my friend...I hate signs! I used to love that old song..signs signs everywhere are signs, blockin up the scenery,
blowin my mind...do this, don't do that...cant' you read the signs...I think it was the guess who...the only black and white things that I appreciate
are photos....thank goodness the world is in technicolour (canadian spelling)....use your OWN head and heart to determine how to treat people...not
what a sign tells you to do...life would be pretty dull without mystery.
[Edited on 3-25-2008 by shari]
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Santiago
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3533
Registered: 8-27-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
I'm thinking it might be a good idea to pay a kid to come after the charters and offer to clean their fish...everyone gets a bit then...spread the
wealth |
Now that's a good idea - Juan won't have to clean fish and of course, you'd have to tip a kid that cleans and bags your fish. Right? Plus the added
goody that the kid's mamasita could make fish head soup 4 or 5 times each week. Good all the way around.
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
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Location: Baja California Sur
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Well this is a great discussion and I have thought about it several times today as I went about doing other things. First, I find it offensive that a
business can get away with paying such low wages that a person can not get by on their salaries and the customer has to subsidize the low wages. I
felt different at one time because I was a waiter and learned to play the tip game and customer satisfaction very well, but I still think it is pretty
lousy that business owners have somehow sold the customers on the idea that they need to subsidize their lousy wages. However, I am a realist and
know that in lots of cases I do tip because I like to see myself as being a generous and non-miserly person, but this thread has, in fact, awakened my
general discomfort with the practice.
In Mexico, my wife had a hairdresser who she regularly tipped and at first the person would always give her back the tip saying she had payed too
much. When she said, no it is a propina for good service, the person said thank you. But after several times of that, she noticed the hairdresser
had raised her rates to the amount of the total with the tip included. Like if the market will bear this increased amount then I should just charge
it all the time. So, I think it is important to understand the cultural significance of what do the local people do and use that as an example of
what is "correct" in any given situation.
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smlslikfish
Junior Nomad
Posts: 75
Registered: 12-30-2003
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Mood: La Costilla Bound
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boat pay
The reason stateside boat/ landing operaters are allowed too pay so little is that they are governed by a differn't set of labor laws. Technically
they are not operating on american soil and so are not subject to minimum wage laws, nor do they have to provide workers compensation or disability
insurance. That's also why they can serve alcohol yet have no liquor liscence.
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