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smlslikfish
Junior Nomad
Posts: 75
Registered: 12-30-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: La Costilla Bound
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Well I've got to go to bed now (night worker). You kids be good while i'm gone O.K.? 
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pascuale
Nomad
Posts: 224
Registered: 2-20-2005
Location: Somewhere South
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lets fish!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Steve& ebby
Hey Pascuale,I beg to differ with you,I am also in the pump service and repair buisness. I have never fixed a custom lunch but I sure have bought alot
of customers or potential customers lunch. I have been doing water well drilling and service and repair for 40 years and have never recieved a tip. I
am just like you,I do the best job possible and charge a fair price (that I can make a living on) with one big difference I DO NOT EXPECT A TIP and do
not think anything less of my customer
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Good point, but as a deckhand, I dont set the prices and the captain and owner do. Its part of fishing on a most boats. if i go the extra distance is
a show of appreciation. as the man who sets his prices, you probably include the compensation you see fit. As a fisherman on a boat, part of the cost
is a tip for service based on that service. You dont have to tip, but next time that head gaff might just be a missed gaff. Fishing is a tip industry,
you take clients to lunch or golfing so they will stay clients. As an appreciation they refer your business and continue business with you. I cant
tell people when they get on board that my deck services will be an additional $30. Doesnt work that way and never will,. Excellent service puts a
smile on my face and usually works out the best in the end with tips, so im happy. the deckies that are jerks to customers should be tipped
accordingly. point is, I dont make the prices and no captainis going to include a tip in their ticket cost because no one will fish on their boat
just like no restaurant in the U.S, will include a tip on the menu price.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
In the north we are much clearer about these sort of expectations in urban areas than in rural areas where kinship bonds are primary and people need
to barter.
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Huh ????? What are you talking about?
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Pescador
My brother lived in a number of out of the way places where eventually the tourists came. He enjoyed the natural beauty of the places and lived
comfortably till the prices were driven up by the tourists and then new residents. Some in the community who dealt with tourists and new residents
prospered, others had their standard of living diminished as prices increased for all who lived there.
I suppose that this is the price of "progress". Change is inevitable and in some ways our only choice is how to deal with it.
This thread has been about the generic "Juan" who provides service for us in Mexico. It happens that there is a real Juan who among his other many
talents provides fishing guide service. I have had the honor of fishing with Juan the guide and meeting Shari and their wonderful family. They are
pioneers in their area and provide the best service that one could ever hope for in Baja. We love these people and will be back. Asuncion is a warm,
safe and welcoming place where one can still experience "the old Baja" Soon word will be out and there will be more and more people in this wonderful
place. I hope that anyone who visits them or fishes with Juan will tip generously, they deserve all of the support that we who avail ourselves of
their wonderful place can give them, the are Nomads and amigos. Ditto for the people of Asuncion who are also very kind and generous to visitors.
My comments have been meant to be generic and invite you to think about your own position in relation to both getting and giving. We all have a sense
of reciprocity if we are not Sociopathic and want everyone to come out well, win-win is the best for everyone. There are cross cultural issues also at
play here and I hope I have not offended anyone with my post. In Europe the Germans are famous for their trains running on time, the Italians for
their great quisine, but don't expect the trains to run on time.
Mexico is changing and going through growing pains. The world in some ways is becoming smaller. There is a need for more and better understanding
accross these cultural and social abyses. I know that I have been seen as stupid for not haggling at times in Mexcio. I know that I have at times paid
too much and added to the problems of locals by inflating the economy. I may also have been seen as a cheapskate by some. These are not easy
negotiations and in rural and barter communities there is a sense and sensibility that I do not have, locals know how much things cost, outsiders do
not. This is why in some ways a fixed percentage of "tip" makes sense. However having said that I know that there are inumberable ways for folks to
sort out what is fair and reciprocal. It is in no ones interest in the long run for people to become exploited.
Many fishing communities on the mainland have become cooperativos sp? in relation to fishing and then set a price. I suppose that this is inevitable
as locals sort out that there is power in getting together i.e. labor unions. In some ways unbridaled competition can make everyone poorer. Prices
inevitably rise and this too is the nature of the beast.
I have enjoyed this thread and hope to read more of peoples thinking on this subject. I think there are a lot of layers to this issue.
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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pasquale
You wrote: " no restaurant in the U.S, will include a tip on the menu price."
Many fine restaurants in the US do indeed include the gratuity in the bill. Most commonly it is in my experience 18%. In fact I have run into this
practice more and more. In the US there is an expectation by the Federal Goverment that waiters and waitresses will be tipped at this rate and build
that into their tax burden whether or not they receive the tip. Others who own restaurants can clarify this, I am not an expert on this subject.
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Dennis,
You asked: "Huh ????? What are you talking about?" in relation to my commments about urban vs. rural/ kinship based economies.
I will explain by example.
I went back to North Dakota, a rural, agricultural state, where I was born. I was there for two weeks, had not been back in 20 years. I left as a
child. While there I was never asked what I did for a living. I was asked who I was related to (kinship bonds). Both my twin brother and myself cashed
checks for $200 in a local bank and were not asked for ID. When going into the pharmacy to mail some film the gal at the counter had to go back to
talk with the pharmacist to decide whether to charge us or not for the envelopes. The underlying basis of these transactions were not that we were
famous, we are from an old and familiar family name and people did not want to offend us and by doing so our extended family by insulting us with
checks of ID or paying for a piddling thing. The risk in a small community like this is that one can alienate an entire family by not following the
unstated rules about how to deal with locals.
In Oregon where I now live, in a suburb of Portland, I can assure you that I am asked for my ID EVERY time, even by people who have seen my come and
go for YEARS! I can assure you that I will be charged every dime that is possible to charge me for every good or service I want and they are clear as
can be about that and there is NO NEGOTIATION. The economy is not based upon kinship or relationships and recoprocity but on Money. The use of money
is the most impersonal, yet clearest way to exchange goods and services and as societies evolve and more and more communities become dependant upon
it.
Hope this clarifies the comment.
Iflyfish
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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OK...Let me ask all of you not so, or fully understanding gratuity tossing Nomads a question which, I hope you will give serious thought to.
Why do you tip?
Is it because the employee deserves and needs more money for the service you agreed to, and did pay for?
Is it because you think the employee is giving you service above and beyond what would be expected for what you payed for? [ what did he do that you
didn't assume was his job ]
Is it that you have assumed responsibility for the well being of another mans employee?
Is it that you have assumed that a hard working, prideful man would accept a gift of money? Or that a hard working man would sink to taking it?
Tipping is a reward for subserviance. It's designed for servants. Do you, who pride yourselves in your trade after years of training, consider
yourself servants?
Well, your not. What you are when you demand tips is beggars.
Quit doing this. Have some self respect. Demand that your employer pay you a living, repectable wage.
The shame is on the employer and the employee when a mans fair earned wage is tied to charity.
Shame on you tightwad employers and you panhandeling employees. Take care of yourselves.
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Oso
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2637
Registered: 8-29-2003
Location: on da border
Member Is Offline
Mood: wait and see
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OK, so we're also talking about other places here although this thread started out describing gringos in Baja as cheapskates. Well, I lived on
Cozumel a couple years in the 60s and got by doing what I could, including "steering" paisanos to boat captain friends. I can tell you that every
single captain on the island LOVED American tourists and HATED "Turistas Nacionales" (Mexicans- especially Chilangos) The reason? Quite simple.
With a few possible exceptions, gringos were described as knowing how to appreciate good service and fellow Mexicans were condemned as cheap and
argumentative, always trying to drive the price down, complaining about everything and NEVER tipping anything.
BTW, I also recall that in this time period in Miami Beach, jobs as Bellhops and such were SOLD and payed NOTHING. Minimum wage laws were not
enforced. You had to buy the job, usually for several hundred dollars plus buying your own uniform. You rec'd nothing from the Hotel management and
sometimes had to fight (and I mean physically) for the best time slots. Conversations with several "Botones" indicated they thought it was worth it.
[Edited on 3-26-2008 by Oso]
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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Dennis, I tip because it feels good to do so. I also bring back presents from my travels and give them to friends. I recently came back from Florida
where they have this wonderful honey called Tupalo. I got jars of it and have given it to most of my neighbors, friends, mailman etc. I just like to
be in a generative place in my life. I went to the doc the other day, carried a box of peeps in a brown paper bag, said out loud as I reached in, and
the office staff flaired, that I had a Peep specimin to leave with them. They all laughed and talked about Peeps my entire stay. I like to see people
smile. It feels good to me to give.
I basicaly agree with your analysis about the economics of the service industry and would like to see people get wages that can adequately support
families. Collective bargaining has been the way that this has happened. We would still have child labor and sweat shops, were it not for organized
labor, there are more and more sweat shops since deregulation and the very good propoganda that convinced working men and woman that unions were not
in their self interest.
Oso, come here boy and let me alter you. You crack me up, way up!
Iflyfish
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Oso
HATED "Turistas Nacionales" (Mexicans- especially Chilangos) |
They do have a way about them, don't they.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
come here boy and let me alter you.
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A priest once said something like that to me. That's the moment I entered my period of scepticism with the church. I knew the Padre wanted to give
me a tip.
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Frank
Senior Nomad
Posts: 861
Registered: 6-5-2005
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Is it time to leave yet?
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I tip because a smile and "I had a great time" isnt enough to express how I feel. I also know how to say Im sorry and didnt mean to offend, if its
taken the wrong way.
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pascuale
Nomad
Posts: 224
Registered: 2-20-2005
Location: Somewhere South
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lets fish!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
pasquale
You wrote: " no restaurant in the U.S, will include a tip on the menu price."
Many fine restaurants in the US do indeed include the gratuity in the bill. Most commonly it is in my experience 18%. In fact I have run into this
practice more and more. In the US there is an expectation by the Federal Goverment that waiters and waitresses will be tipped at this rate and build
that into their tax burden whether or not they receive the tip. Others who own restaurants can clarify this, I am not an expert on this subject.
Iflyfish |
Geez havent seen that one unless im going with a party of 8 or more. Every crew member would love it if the government made a manditory 18% tip
included in the ticket. Name five restaurants that include tip with a two person party, just for my curiousity.
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Steve&Debby
Nomad
Posts: 335
Registered: 12-18-2007
Location: Colusa,California/ Percebu
Member Is Offline
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Pascuale, Believe it or not I have been known to tip for exceptional service,I took my family out fishing in Fort Bragg California and I did tip the
boat owner $100.00. We caught our limit of Salmon and they were fillet and bagged.
Dennis, Wow I could not have said it better my self. At one time I had up to 30 employees and I paid them what I figured I could afford according to
the prices I could charge for my services. My employees were never chained and shackeld to the job and forced to work.In other words it's a free
country and if they figured they could not survive on what I could pay then they were welcome to get another job that could pay them what they needed.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
I basicaly agree with your analysis about the economics of the service industry |
What is the difference between a sport fishing boat and a tour bus?
You pay for an assumed reward. Is the reward greater when a tip is involved? Seemingly so on the boat but, not on the bus.
They're both service related enterprises but, only one has a traditional requirement of gratuities. Why? If the bus drivers suddeny said, "You
will, from this day forward, give us some of your money before you leave the bus," would you be up in arms saying, "Hell yes. This man works really
hard and I'll give him a handful of my money. After all, he just told me I would."
I doubt it.
Don't get me wrong folks. Fewer and smaller tips is NOT my point. Better pay from employers is. If they have to raise their prices to do
this....fine. Do it. Otherwise the government should make the tipped segment of society our deductible dependent.
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BMG
Super Nomad
Posts: 1776
Registered: 6-10-2007
Location: La Paz / Bahia Asunci�n / Away from home
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by smlslikfish In Juan's case he's charging $ 100. Subtract the cost/ effort of procuring fuel/oil, factor in cost of
boat/motor/ maintenance/ launch vehicle. He's giving all of you a goodguy price. It seems to me that the least you all could do is let him know it's
appreciated. (in gringo terms that means TIP GENEROUSLY)........ GOD I LOVE THIS PLACE!! |
You are very good at reminding us to tip generously so you won't think of us as cheapskates, but you still haven't defined what an adequate or
generous tip is for the $100 panga. Seems like somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% is what most people recommend on this board. Is this enough in
your mind?
| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
but very few clients have tipped him
hey $5 for a six pack goes a long way! |
This does surprise me. Especially after reading most of the comments here about tipping. And a $5 tip seems like almost an insult to me.
I think the world is run by C- students.
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gibson
Banned
Posts: 250
Registered: 2-6-2007
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Frank
I tip because a smile and "I had a great time" isnt enough to express how I feel. I also know how to say Im sorry and didnt mean to offend, if its
taken the wrong way. |
wow real sorry to see that your upbringing emphasized BS priorities!!
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BMG
This does surprise me. Especially after reading most of the comments here about tipping. And a $5 tip seems like almost an insult to me.
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Depends on the brand of beer. Pacifico...Sí. Corona....No.
Anyway, the tipper decides the proper amount. Isn't that the idea of this completely bloated concept?
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BMG
Super Nomad
Posts: 1776
Registered: 6-10-2007
Location: La Paz / Bahia Asunci�n / Away from home
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
Anyway, the tipper decides the proper amount. Isn't that the idea of this completely bloated concept? |
Maybe that's the way it used to be, but it's hard to argue that it's not the way things are now. Not many people that I know eat a meal at a
restaurant and don't leave a tip. Used to the 'normal' tip was 10%. Then it went to 10%-15%. Now the 'normal' is 15%-20%.
When we were sailing in French Polynesia it was actually quite nice not having to worry about local customs on how much and when to tip as tipping
isn't part of their culture. (At least it wasn't, can't say about now,)
Since moving to La Paz, I find the norm is to tip much more frequently to more people than in the states. Can't say that I like it. Maybe it's because
I live in Baja and I've been labeled a "cheapskate".
I think the world is run by C- students.
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Steve&Debby
Nomad
Posts: 335
Registered: 12-18-2007
Location: Colusa,California/ Percebu
Member Is Offline
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Dennis,Nailed it again But you know a cold cervesa on a hot day has no name.
Oh, As a side note I want to thank all of you that have been there for me in my fledgling times,Thank You. I think this post will actually make me a
real Nomad.Post #100 Yippy
PS Please NO TIPS
[Edited on 3-26-2008 by Steve&ebby]
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