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Pstreet1
Junior Nomad
Posts: 94
Registered: 7-25-2005
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Very interesting question. Compared to some of you, we're newcomers: we've owned here for 10 years. I'm amazed at the changes I've seen: 4 lane
free road almost to Puerto Neuvo, movie theater with stadium seating in Rosarito, Home Depot in Rosarito, Applebee's coming to Rosarito. I like the
road, and it will make summer traffic easier to handle; I liked seeing Batman without crossing the border to do it; I like access to Home Depot, but
generally, local hardware stores are better to use and help the local population considerably more; Applebee's? ? All of that is Americanization,
obviously. Do I enjoy it? Yes. Has it cost some of the charm that was here 10 years ago? Yes.
However, I think it's important that Americans who frequent Baja separate "cheap" from "charm." It's clear that the standard of living for Mexicans
in the Rosarito area is rising; we see more and more of a middle class. That's wonderful--but prices in the area are rapidly changing. Our favorite
restaurant charged $8.00 for bacon wrapped, stuffed shrimp 10 years ago. Now, they charge $17.95. The restaurant is the same as it always was; the
people are just as friendly; are they making more money? I hope so. I see new housing areas that are clearly being marketed to Mexicans that are
clearly middle class. That's a wonderful side benefit of American money in the area. Does this middle class population have the same "charm" they
did 10 years ago? Yes, if you are talking about friendliness to those who accept them as equals. No if the price change makes a difference to the
visitor.
Security concerns many because of the American press and its treatment of anything that happens south of the border. All I can say is that we have a
home in the U.S.; we'd be there if we felt threatened here. Instead, we're here well over half the year--last year we were in Rosarito all but 3 mts.
of the year, and this year is looking like a match. We don't feel threatened.
We love Baja and its people; we love the time we spend here. If our presence makes life better for Mexicans in our area, maybe they will continue to
welcome us. We hope so.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
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See Erick Berne, M.D. The game Blemish
http://www.scribd.com/doc/238124/Eric-Berne-Games-People-Pla...
Iflyfish
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Skipjack Joe
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Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Iflyfish,
These games all seem to be so negative. Aren't there positive social interactions that have been labeled as 'games'?
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Iflyfish
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Skipjack: Astute observation and why I posted the link. One can analyse the exchanges one reads in a thread using this schema. Berne considered
himself to be a Social Psychiatrist, interested in the interactions between people hence the name for his theories of personality and school of
therapy called Transactional Analysis. Berne was really a Populist Psychoanalyst and a keen observer of human behavior.
Berne postulated that there are limited ways of structuring time, that which lies between waking and sleeping. He said that all of our social behavior
is structured to acquire stroking (units of human recognition). He said that this behavior exists in a hierarchy and that as one ascends the hierarchy
that one acquires more stroking. The hierarchy:
Intimacy involves emotional closeness, deep sharing, realness, support, caring, as well as intimate sex. He believed that people have, based on their
developmental experiences, differing beliefs about the possibility of having intimacy in their lives. Some believe you cannot have it a lot, some say
you can have it once, others say never. He said that these beliefs affect our comfort with and behavior that seeks intimacy. If we can't have
intimacy, which provides the most stroking we will engage in Games.
Games are a predictable series of transactions in which someone ends up with bad feelings. They are played by degree: First Degree: minor discomfort,
Second Degree: social disruption, Third Degree: tissue damage. Berne identified these games and labeled them and described their stroke value. Games
end in emotion and therefore stroking. Someone does get hurt. Negative stroking has the same value as positive stroking...watch a child who wants you
to play with them…you ignore and they will escalate, eventually getting you to get angry with them and they then get their strokes. Strokes are
necessary for survival.
Activities are shared experiences of doing something together: fishing, dancing, playing cards, skiing etc, sharing meals etc. These are pleasurable
activities that provide stroking.
Pastimes: Talking about the weather, taxes, how wonderful or awful someone or something is. The most popular is talking about the weather. Fisherman
can talk for hours about the catch, lures, favorite holes etc. ditto for divers, birders, car people etc.
Rituals: are predictable exchanges between people that are pleasant and predictable; they involve the exchange of stroking i.e. “Hola” – “Hola”, a one
stroke exchange, or if we have not seen someone in a long time, “Hola” – “Hola”, “K Paso” – “Mucho trabajo e poco denaro” etc. These can be very
simple single stroke exchanges or as complex and strung out as a Japanese Tea Ceremony.
Withdrawal: disengagement from other people where all the stroking is internal. “Aren’t I wonderful, virtuous, handsome, smart, talented, awful,
ugly, terrible, unlovable, etc.” These internal conversations occur on an ongoing basis and provide internal stroking.
That’s a summary and your observation that games involve pain is very astute. There is always an emotional payoff from games and for some these
feelings are bad feelings.
Games are always played by assuming one of three Psychological Roles:
Rescuer: (Not the ones with red crosses, these are people who are always trying to help you, even if you don’t need it)
Victim: (Not the sort that has a big bolder fall on them but people who assume the one down position and feel that the world, other people etc. have
given them the shaft or treat them unfairly. These folks often feel entitled to others indulgence because of their victim status. The Victim position
is the most powerful; ever try to cheer up a person who is determined to feel bad?
Persecutor: (Not the District Attorney) but the one who is always trying to play “gotcha!” This is the person who unmasks your inadequacy, kicks you,
berates you etc.
Games are played by assuming one of the Psychological Roles above and then switching to one of the other roles. I will give you an example. Someone
tries to help you with something you do not want help with, they see you as a victim to be rescued, you play along for a while but don’t do what they
want you to do and then they get angry and kick you and say “I am only trying to help!” The games starts with the Rescuer identifying a Victim, tries
to rescue them and then switches to Persecutor when they feel Victimized by the initial victim not doing what they told them to do. See all the
emotionality, intensity and stroking in this exchange. This is why Games are so compelling for those who play them. Games provide a lot of stroking,
much more than Withdrawal, Rituals, Pastimes or Activities.
These dynamics are universal; you will see them all around you if you are looking. It can be very helpful to identify games if one is to avoid taking
the pay off for them.
Iflyfish
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
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Rescue me! Come on and rescue me ...
Right now I'm feeling sorry for Dr. Berne. Imagine going through life and seeing all social interactions as game playing. Going to a party and seeing
this extra dimension as you talk to people.
Is anything done without that? Does anyone do good things in the boy scout or Christian way, things done for the sake of goodness, without playing the
role of rescuer?
Rescuer. I kind of like that role. It's kind of like 'hero' but with the wrong reasons.
I've noticed a recent trend in my postings that may indicate some kind of a game going on. I'm not sure. Take the 'baja improvement' subject. I have
mixed feelings about it. If I read a thread where people (shari, for example) overwhelmingly post about it's positive aspects (e.g. Mexican men make
better husbands) I'll give examples of the opposite. And when a thread comes up where people want baja 'improvements' I'll bring up how it seemed
better before. I see others switching sides like that also. What does it mean?
Yesterday I read one of Diane's threads on the kids of Asuncion. I have always supported these kind of threads as being very positive. But suddenly I
had an urge to post one saying how 'sappy' it's all becoming. The kids on their bicycles, that is. Fortunately my better judgement took over and I'm
still friends with Diane (even after this post, I hope).
There you have it. The contrariness for it's own sake, it appears.
I would never have made a good psychologist. Imagine never being able to get righteously mad at something without trying to understand it?
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13050
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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very interesting game playing....I agree with skipjack but just wanted to comment on your example of my posts...perhaps it was just an example but I
have never said that mexican men make good husbands...in fact, I would have to disagree with that...Juan is special and not the run of the mill
esposo...just to clarify. I didn't realize most of my posts were positive...maybe becasue positive things outweigh the negative in our life...I have
posted negative stuff like on the elections, road work, bad weather, problems with builders etc....but on the whole I am becoming more mexicana and
complain less and less as I learn tolerance and understanding.
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DianaT
Select Nomad
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Registered: 12-17-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Yesterday I read one of Diane's threads on the kids of Asuncion. I have always supported these kind of threads as being very positive. But suddenly I
had an urge to post one saying how 'sappy' it's all becoming. The kids on their bicycles, that is. Fortunately my better judgement took over and I'm
still friends with Diane (even after this post, I hope).
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Well, I guess we will have to negotiate and debate this "The contrariness for it's own sake, it appears" on our front porch the next time you
return to BA. 
Sappy? OK, next time I will fix that. There is a man who obviously dislikes gringos because we don't know him, but everytime we see him, he is quite
confrontive. Do you think he would allow me to take his picture to post as an example of a real Bahia Asuncion Jerk? 
We will take the picture right before we go and turn him into our skateboarding policeman, Leri.
Hope to see you soon once again in BA.
Diane
[Edited on 7-24-2008 by jdtrotter]
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Skipjack
"Right now I'm feeling sorry for Dr. Berne. Imagine going through life and seeing all social interactions as game playing."
Berne did not see ALL social transactions as game playing, nor all helping as Rescuing. His view was that people engaged in Psychological Games who
have a limited hope of having real intimacy in their lives. There is a real need in human beings to provide care and nurturing, as well as to receive
it. He saw Psychological Games as antithetical to intimacy and a source of significant pain in human interactions. He advocated stopping games and
encouraged intimacy. It can be very helpful to identify games and not take the pay off for them. He encouraged people to be authentic and to have
FUN!
Being aware of negative social transactions and learning how not to "play" can be very helpful. I used to teach a course for teenagers on How to Avoid
Game Payoffs for Fun and Profit! I would have them practice the skill and art of stopping games i.e. Perp says "you look stupid" a counter might be
"glad you noticed me". Rescuer says "oh, you need to take better care of yourself" thereby making you a victim in need of their rescuing, a counter
might be "I am starting a new style". Rescuers need victims and will switch to Persecutors when they are at the end of the game. Rescuers ultimately
become Victims.
"Does anyone do good things in the boy scout or Christian way, things done for the sake of goodness, without playing the role of rescuer?"
People who have had positive developmental experiences with other people tend to be caring, nurturing people who want to experience the positive
strokes that come in the context of exchanging positive interactions with others. Game players have learned to acquire their strokes in different
ways. TRescuers MUST have Victims to Rescue, Rescuers to Victimize or Persecutors to feel Victimized by. Lots of drama, drama is not intimacy. Games
generate drama. It is healthy and feels good to be generative, loving, caring and want to share good feelings with others.
Some people are positive, generative, caring and loving because they either have had these experiences developmentaly and/or have decided that they
wish to see the glass half full and to engage in positive and generative ways with others, choose to spend what little time they have in the world
engaged in generative behavior. It's a choice after all.
Glad you asked and I appreciate the generosity, caring and sharing I see exibited by people on this board. There may not be as much drama in giving
bikes to kids and showing happy faces, but it can warm ones heart to see and be a part of that! I love seeing pictures of "ordinary life" in Baja.
That is very rich indeed. It does not generate as much heat and drama as do drug busts and Cartel shoot outs, but in the long run is more enriching,
sort of like eating ones vegitables....can become an acquired taste.
It is also clear that Culture influences our sense of self and our behavior and that is a source of endless fascination for me and part of why Mexcio
and this board interests me. Cross cultural exchanges are hard to find and this is one of the values of people on this board who are sharing their
experiences of both cultures.
Iflyfishwhennotthinkingtoomuchaboutthehumancondition
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Calling Dr. Freud. 
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Lencho, well said. Wish I had mastered the simple sentence.
Cypress, Freud called and Berne answered with a Populist Psychoanalysis! His goal was to bring to everyday people an understanding of how to live more
freely and genuinely.
Once can apply the concepts elaborated by Berne to better understand the adaptive strategies found in various cultures. Our history and the decisions
we make about our experiences affect our sense of self and our sense of our own power to be happy and generative. One can view culture as the product
of a series of adaptive strategies developed to address the realities of the place and time of it's origins and events that are adapted to.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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The optimism of Americans can be in some ways tied to the fact of our geography, a west to explore and people, oceans that provided protection and
independance and an adaptation of optimism etc. On the flip side of this can be found an adaptation of arrogance, entitlement and ethnocentricity that
lead to genocide of the native population. Ni Modo in Mexico can be sourced in part to the adaptation to a history of brutal Aztec rule followed by a
perhaps more brutal conquest and occupation, followed by a series of despotic rulers and then 75 years of one party rule. If the future is uncertain
and one has a feeling of little power to affect it then living for the day serves one well indeed.
IflyfishwhenIdon'thavesomuchtimeonmyhands
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8088
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jdtrotter
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Yesterday I read one of Diane's threads on the kids of Asuncion. I have always supported these kind of threads as being very positive. But suddenly I
had an urge to post one saying how 'sappy' it's all becoming. The kids on their bicycles, that is. Fortunately my better judgement took over and I'm
still friends with Diane (even after this post, I hope).
|
Well, I guess we will have to negotiate and debate this "The contrariness for it's own sake, it appears" on our front porch the next time you
return to BA.
Sappy? OK, next time I will fix that. There is a man who obviously dislikes gringos because we don't know him, but everytime we see him, he is quite
confrontive. Do you think he would allow me to take his picture to post as an example of a real Bahia Asuncion Jerk?
We will take the picture right before we go and turn him into our skateboarding policeman, Leri.
Hope to see you soon once again in BA.
Diane
[Edited on 7-24-2008 by jdtrotter] |
"[Edited on 7-24-2008 by jdtrotter]" - hmmmm. Not a good sign.
Just to clarify, Diane. I didn't mean that your posts have become sappy. I meant that I felt an urge to go in the opposite direction and call them
that. Probably just a desire on my part to 'stand out' in some way, I guess. Or some other reason, who knows. I think I don't want to know at this
point in time.
IFlyfish,
I can see how being aware of gameplaying is powerful. I was surprised at the number of games and how subtle they are. I've never liked playing games
or people who do so. I'm a big proponent of sincerity. But these are so pervasive and subtle I may be unknowingly doing it too.
[Edited on 7-24-2008 by Skipjack Joe]
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