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Skeet/Loreto
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Steve
Where is Oro Valley? Sounds as if it maybe East of Lake Havasu at the head Waters of the Bill williams River.
Skeet/Loreto
"In God I Trust"
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Steve in Oro Valley
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Location: Near Tucson
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Oro Valley
Skeet:
Oro Valley is an incorporated town about 10 miles (spread out) due north of downtown Tucson.
About 30,000 inhabitants. If you are familiar with the Santa Catalina Mtns, we have that as our view to the east. The Ca?ada del Oro is a large
arroyo that runs right thru it.
It is a "banana belt" with lots of ironwood trees around...
Steve
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Big Al
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USA
I beg to differ with what several of you are implying. JR and Gull have made some very anti-American comments, see below. The value of a handshake
and your word does not come down to what side of the border you were born, it comes down to what kind of a person you are. I am guessing that these
anti-American sentiments are coming from the situation that this group has created. Remember that not all Americans are like this group and not all
Mexicans are honest. It comes down to the individual. These people obviously don't love Baja for the same reasons you do. It may be because it is
beautiful and this is the only place in the world they can afford a million dollar view for 10 cents on the dollar. They probably want to make it
feel like home, when a lot of us don't want it to feel like home we want to enjoy it as our Mexican friends have made it.
My 2 cents of proud American currency.
Big Al
"It is a LOT different here than the u.s.. A handshake can still mean something here and generally, a mans word is his honor. These people deserve
respect because of who they are and what they believe. And, it is their country. "
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Herb
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I knew it would eventually happen...
I'm just surprised it took this long for someone to use the "AA" word (anti-american). There was actually some good discussion going on about the
impact that gringos living in baja has had on the area.
Yes, Big Al, I agree that people are people and some are good and some are bad. However, there really is such a thing as American culture.(Or should I
say, US culture because I hate the implication that ours is the only nation in the Americas that matters) There is such a thing as Mexican culture and
there are distinctly different norms for behavior in each area. There is also a different culture between urban areas and rurual areas. There is yet
another difference, brought about by the potentially corrupting influence of money and wealth, or at least the pursuit of them.
Most people define as inherently good the types of values that are seen more commonly in poorer rural areas where there is no strong central
governement so the people have to depend on one another in a sense of community to survive. That is human nature. More money and a stronger central
government and law enforcement tends to allow people to "escape" from a feeliing of responsibility for anyone but themselves. Also, human nature.
Which of theses environments are more common in which country?
Now, does this mean that you cannot be ripped-off by a poor mexican farmer in the middle of nowhere, or that you cannot be the recipient of a random
act of kindness by a billionaire in mid-town mahattan? Of course not. But what are the odds? As you mix and match these (and many other) contributing
variables in different locations, the odds change.
Most people hate generalities because generalities are, generally, true. I have seen no untrue generalities about Mexico or the US in this thread. The
danger in generalities is when people believe that they are absolutes or limits. (No bad Mexicans, no good Gringos, this child can't learn, etc.,
etc.)
Just my opinion and not my 2cents because it is s-o-o-o typically American for everything to be about money
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Capt. George
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BRAVO
Voiceing an opinion does not mean A/A
Thanks Herb!!!!
Wanna see unamerican, take a close look at some of our politicos....how about the present President/Vice Presidential Candidates on both sides....
It actually saddens me......
I worked in all the major ghettos of NYC as a firefighter in the 70's/80's the riot times......am i prejidiced from that experience, no, I just don't
like bad people
vikingo
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Big Al
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AA
Herb:
Maybe you didn't quite understand what I was refering to. Look at the quote at the bottom of my post.
"It is a LOT different here than the u.s.. A handshake can still mean something here and generally, a mans word is his honor."
This implies/says that a handshake doesn't mean anything north of the border and a man's word is his honor is only valid on the south side. Sorry,
but that is an anti-american statement and you will not convince me that it is factual.
Let's try rewording it a bit. would you consider the following statement anti-Herb?
"It is a LOT different here than at Herb's house. A handshake can still mean something here and generally, a mans word is his honor."
Grover, as a topic iof discussion. i don't believe that wages have decreased over the last 30 years.
"Wages have fallen for over 30 years now, and both parents have to work to make ends meet(if you're paying US prices, and need to keep up with the
Simpsons)."
Aside from housing, and that is a supply and demand problem, wages have actually increased relative to buying power. I am 39 and my children have far
more at there disposal than I did as I was a kid. My father was an engineer and so am I. My mother didn't work and neither does my wife. The
difference as I see it is our expectations, we want more and more. 30 years ago 6 of us lived in a 3 bedroom, 1 bath, 1500 SQ Ft house, with one car.
Nobody builds homes that small anymore, because everyone wants a bigger home, more rooms and a bathroom for everyone. Most households have 2-4 cars,
with a lot more luxurys than were even available back then. Expectations of what we "need" is what makes our salaries look smaller. That
unfortunatley is the american way, and the rest of the world is following suit.
BTW, the US being called "America" comes from the United States of America. Mexico is called "The United States of Mexico" and Canada is just Canada.
It is not an egotistical thing that the US is all that matters, it is just lazy speech. That's why the Estados Unidos Mexicanos is Mexico, so just
relax a little.
dos centavos. It's what makes the world go around.
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Herb
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That's where you're wrong, Al. You see, I'm not as defensive as the average "american." I wouldn't consider the the statement with Herb inserted as
anti-Herb if it were based on experience. In fact, I tend to be a very forgetful person. As such I have occaisionally forgotten to do things for
people that I have promised that I would do. If this statement came from one of those folks, I would smile sheepishly!
My observations and experience would support the statement that you call anti-american. I would be far more trusting of a handshake in most parts of
Baja than I would be in most parts of Alta California. That's not anti-american, it is an opinion based on observation. It may not be scientific and
it may or may not be a fact, but it is not anti-american.
What IS a fact is that there are some things that are better about the US and our culture than other countries AND there are some things that are
worse no matter what your core value system of defining good and bad. Often, when someone accuses someone of being anti-american for making a critical
observation of American behavior, it is because that person has an American superiority complex. There are too many people who believe that everything
in the US is better than anything anywhere else. Typically, they cannot look at individual issues objectively. "If it is American, it is better,
period," is usually the attitude.
There are some really awful things that Americans do abroad, which was the original direction of this thread. If you don't want to take the word of us
anti-americans, try visiting anywhere in the world (outside the US) that receives a lot of international tourists and ask the people there which
nation's tourists are the most unbearably obnoxious. I'll betcha we're always number 1 or 2. Or is that just because the whole world is anti-American?
And, if so, why? Hmmm......
BTW - I think you would make a great politician. Starting out the comment on cost of living with, "except for housing." What do people spend the
lion's share of their iincome on? Housing. If the cost is higher, then someones overall cost of living is likely to be higher. How can you discard the
most significant component of something with, "besides that." You obviously bought your home before the current housing boom because, if not, you
would not be able to afford a home in a decent neighborhood without a 50+ mile commute with only one income unless you were the VP of Engineering, and
even then, it would be a struggle. I am very close in age to you and it is a well documented fact that fewer people can afford to by a home than when
our parents were the same age. I love the, "well everything is OK in my home, therefore the world must be OK too!" mentality. But I guess it is kind
of explained by the loss of feeling of community and concern for "the other guy" that I mentioned comes with greater wealth and urbanization.
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JESSE
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Right on herb.
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Capt. George
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HERB, ADDRESSED THE ISSUE BETTER THEN I COULD
HOWEVER,
THE SALARIES OPPOSED TO THE PRESENT COST OF LIVING HAVE ABSOLUTELY FALLEN. NEITHER OF MY CHILDREN, ALL OF THEM HARD WORKING, INCLUDING MY SON-IN LAW
CAN NOT AFFORD TO BUY A HOME....PERHAPS IF THEY MOVE TO BUTTF___K IOWA, MAYBE. HOW ABOUT HEALTH INSURANCE AL? 65% OF working
NORTE AMERICANOS CAN NOT AFFORD ANY. I CAN GET HEALTH INSURANCE IN MEXICO FOR MYSELF AND DEBORAH FOR ABOUT $220.00 PER YEAR.....SMELL SOMETHING WRONG
AL? BET YOU HAVE INSURANCE FOR YOU AND YOURS!
3 BEDROOM HOUSE WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP, OH, HOW MY HEART BLEEDS FOR YOU......HOW ABOUT A 4 ROOM COLD WATER FLAT APARTMENT WITH 7 PEOPLE AND A
BATHROOM IN THE EXTERIOR HALL SHARED WITH THE AMERICAN LEGION.....MY FATHER WORKED HIMSELF TO DEATH DRIVING A SEMI IN THE CONFINES OF NYC....
I, BEING OF THE LUCKIEST GENERATION OF AMERICANS DID CONSIDERABLY BETTER, SORROWFULLY, MY CHILDREN WON'T. THE AMERICAN DREAM? WAS.
MY HEART IS NO LONGER IN THE US of A, A DIFFERENT PLACE NOW....TAKE A LOOK AT THE PRESENT 4 TURDS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT/VICE PRESIDENT
BUSH MEGA-RICH OIL FAMILY
CHANEY- ON PAR (OR PERHAPS MORE SO)
WITH SPIRO AGNEW
KERRY...A GIGILO MARRIED TO A GIGELETTE....
PHONY VIET VET....LOOK AT HIS SERVICE RECORD, and now, my favorite:
John Edwards: $750 MILLION, MADE MOST OF IT AS AN ATTORNEY SUING HOSPITALS AND DOCTORS(NOT THAT I HAVE Any GREAT LOVE FOR THOSE INSTITUTIONS, MORE
AMERICANS KILLED BY THEM THEN DIE FROM HEART DISEASE AND CANCER).
BUT HE'S GOING TO HELP THE WORKING CLASS GET HEALTH INSURANCE.....WHAT A JOKE....
FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY 59 YEARS I WILL NOT TAKE PART IN THE VOTING PROCESS, WHICH I MOST POWERFULLY CONSIDERED AN IMMENSE PRIVILAGE. ONLY ONCE DID I
VOTE MY CHOICE, ALL OTHER TIMES WAS DECIDING THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS......
IS MEXICOS POLITICAL ARENA ANY BETTER, OF COURSE NOT.....BUT I CAN LIVE MY SIMPLE LIFE IN MY SIMPLE TOWN
HAPPILY EVER AFTER.....
A/A, NOT! VIET VET 66/67,HONORABLE DISCHARGE, 20 YEARS A NYC FIREFIGHTER, WORKED ALL THE MAJOR GHETTOS IN THE 70'S/80'S. BUSIEST FIREHOUSE ON THE
FACE OF THE EARTH......ENGINE 42, SOUTH BRONX. I LOVE (WHAT WAS) MY COUNTRY......I SIMPLY HATE MY PRESENT PHONY MONEY GRUBBING GOVERNMENT.
AT THIS POINT IN TIME ONLY 8% OF THE WORK FORCE IS UNION, LESS THEN PRIOR TO THE GREAT UNION MOVEMENT
OF THE 30'S.....WHY?, PART OF THE REASON IS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE BEING DUPED INTO CASTING THEIR VOTES ON RIDICULOUS MORAL ISSUES TRUMPED UP BY THE
POLITICOS. KEEP THE BILL PAYERS ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE REAL ISSUE. AND WE(THE WEALTHIEST) THE ROBBER BARONS (SUPRISE, THEY'RE BACK!) CAN KEEP THE
LIONS PORTION AND CONTINUE TO DO SO....BEWARE, LET THEM EAT CAKE!!!!
IS ALL OF THE ABOVE ANTI-AMERICAN?
IF IT IS, THEN I AM!
CAPT. GEORGE
AND NOW, MORE APPROPRIATELY:
EL VIKINGO de PUNTA ABREOJOS
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
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one culture + another makes a better one
Hey guys,
If any of you have read my books on Baja you will remember that I always am talking about a man?s word/handshake is his bond down here. Hell for the
first 25 plus years it was an insult to ask for something in writing! I learned to love that because I knew that what was agreed upon would be
provided and usually much more.
I have always tried to show how the ?two cultures? seem to be blending into another that is superior to either the Mexican (Bajan) or the Gringo.
Anti American I think not! Just ask Jessie when I thought he was being far too critical of my home country.
I don?t know how many of you go back and read old posts but I do. I do it mainly because it tends to stimulate my thinking and gets my fingers to
work on this keyboard. As a result of this I believe that I have found that members of the board, with rare exception, bring valuable thought to all
of us. I think even I have become somewhat less defensive of my strongly held beliefs. I find that when a guy like Markitos gently pulled me up
short (his reply to the downer post I logged on July 18th). He gently reminded me that there was such a thing as a Baja Attitude. I appreciate that
type of help.
Someone mentioned ?Campo Loco? Arnaiz. To me that is a place locked in a time warp and it never seems to change. I remember the first time I
approached the god, Fred Hoctor, and asked him to take a look at the first few chapters of my Mi Baja. He looked at my first cuts, tilted his head
squinted, and asked me??Did you mother check your spelling.? That was my first experience with his very dry wit. Help me he did and he made many
suggestions that made my book better. I became a little angry with him because he failed to keep our last appointment?he up and died on me. His wife
Sylvia still maintains the house at the south end of Enseneda Bay. Do any of you know how he got the terrible scar on his head. I never had the guts
to ask and always wondered.
Herb, I would really enjoy (I think) sitting down and listening to your philosophy on life. I am always impressed with your non-emotional logic and
would not even attempt to cross swords with you in that arena. All I know is that I love Baja and its people AND that I am a proud American who tries
to understand and enjoy people of many different cultures. Why, heck, we have a whole lot more than one in this wonderful country of ours.
Sooooo, Let?s all continue to share our knowledge and continue to grow as thinking and caring human beings. I think?
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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jrbaja
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And they called me anti american
Hahahahahaha. See what happens when you eat a little fresh caught abalone, lobster, fish and un-FDA approved foods.
And hangin around humans. What a difference it can make in logical thinking eh?
More and more people are starting to realize their hearts are in the wrong place.
They are getting the wool pulled over their eyes by the american gubment and have been for years.
It's not so much anti-american, it's more like becoming aware of what the rest of humanity thinks.
Many actually believe what the media and their politicos tell them. They are just people. Which is what the governments want. uneducated taxpayers
who put up with their thievery.
Al, if you enjoy Baja, next time you visit, spend some time with the Mexicans rather than in a gringo or canadian enclave. These human beings will
surprise the heck out of you. I don't even lock my car!~ But, I probably would if I were you.
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Capt. George
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SH_T STIRRING ARTIST
JR,
accolades to you, an accomplished po-po
stirrer.....
were you ever a Firefighter...ya shoulda been.....
Lock your car.......tooooo much man.
El Vikingo
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jrbaja
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Yep,
according to the number of replies and opinions on this thread, I've whipped up a regular Bouillabase.(bull ya base)
But, me thinks people are learning. From every single post !
[Edited on 7/23/2004 by jrbaja]
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Baja Bernie
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Jr
I agree, but do you --I refer to my private email to you.
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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jrbaja
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No entiende Sr. Bernie.
What I am finding out though is that more people think the same way as I have learned to think.
And they are obviously a lot more intelligent and educated than I am. But, we are basically saying the same thing however we put it.
And, it's the same feelings that most of the planet carries. Humans .
Don't you think it just a little strange that when the loco, un-propogandized gringos travel to remote, off the beaten path places, the first thing
they notice and talk about is the humanity and how well they were treated? Everywhere!
That's because they are members of humanity and easily recognize the fact that they can learn from others rather than having some lame idea that
they are better than whoever they come in contact with because they are GRINGOS !!!
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Capt. George
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GREAT CHART
That pretty much puts it into perspective.
Thanks....
"LET THEM EAT CAKE"
THE GUILLOTINE COME NEXT.......
just history, just history........
Capt. George
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Big Al
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Some Clarifications
Herb. No, my objection to what I call AA comments does not come from a feeling of superiority. It comes from dealing with a great deal of people
where that comment just doesn't apply. If you go back to my original post it basically says, People are people. I wouldn't trust a handshake from a
stranger in LA or DF. I would more likely trust a hand a handshake from a farmer in Iowa or a fisherman in BOLA. I think it is more about where you
live in the country than which country you come from.
Economically speaking, I think you have to consider real estate differently now. They're not making anymore land and we keep pumping out babies. It
is a supply and demand problem. And I will say it again, people expect more. People aren't happy with a single used oldsmobile station wagon and
1000 Sq Ft of living area. The reasons both parents work is not just need, it is choice. I have a lot of friends where both spouses work and the
major bread winner makes more than I do. The difference is that I have chosen to make some sacrifices so my kids don't spend their afternoons in day
care. They come home from school to a mom who helps them with there homework and teaches them the value of a handshake and their word. In exchange
for that, we give up new cars and vacations to Hawaii. Instead I own a used Jeep so we can vacation on a remote beach in Baja. It's all about making
choices. Look around at the luxuries that you have in your own life and I will bet that you and your children have a lot more now than when you were
a kid.
Capt George. I wasn't looking for your pitty on the way I was raised. I am sure we all have a sad story. I was just trying to show you what we
expect today compared to 30 years ago. Now the rest of the story, FYI. At the age of 8 my parents were divorced and I lived with my single mother.
We had to go on public assistance because my mom couldn't make ends meet. At age 14, I had to work to help out. Thankfully our house payment was low
because we bought it in 1967, because I was now making the house payments for my mom when she was short. When I turned sixteen and could drive, I
bought a car and that was the family car for a couple of years. So, your dad driving a semi in NYC is tough, but at least it wasn't you delivering
papers at 4:00 AM after busing tables the night before until 11:00 PM.
Also, the USA is not the only country that is run by Rich politicians, look at who has run Mexico for the last 50-60 years. It's not a campesino corn
farmer, it is the richest people in the country.
JR.
As much as you don't want to hear this, because you live in Rosarito does not make you the sole authority on Mexican culture. You have no idea who I
spend time with when in Mexico. FYI, These people (Mexicans) already have surprised me, as you suggest. If you look at my posts I have never said
anything degrading towards the Mexican people. I have only defended us americans from negative comments that I don't believe are true. Now here is a
little Bio so you understand a little more about me. In the 80's I spent time living in Mexico studying the language getting to know the culture and
the people. I fell in love with both and one senorita in particular. I was married in Mexico, have worked there for several years, and visit my
Mexican family frequently. My wife and kids hold Mexican citizenship. So, when I travle to Mexico I am always with Mexicans so don't lecture me on
American enclaves. BTW. My Mexican mother in law says you are lieing or an idiot for not locking your car or quite simply there is nothing in it of
value. Let me ask you this, do you leave that camera that you shoot your awesome pictures with ( I really do love you photos), in the unlocked car?
Do you leave it unlocked only at home or on the strip in Rosarito?
In summary, if you all haven't been bored to sleep, I think we can all find faults with some rich Americans as well as the Mexican people. I just
get the feeling that a lot of posters like to bash the bad Americans that they come across and overlook the short comings of other people. Bashing
your own government and people is common regardless of what side of the border you are on. There is no country more critical of its goverment than
Mexico and rightfully so, that government does very little to help the people. Just like all of you posters responding to this string, I am American
and so are you and I think most of you are honorable and trustworthy.
[Edited on 7-23-2004 by Big Al]
[Edited on 7-23-2004 by Big Al]
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jrbaja
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Good points indeed Al
You obviously do not apply to the generalizations. I aplologize for including you.
The vast majority of gringos I run into down here, it does apply to, which is why I generalize re: gringos.
As far as locking my car goes, I don't lock it when it is in front of my house as I am fairly well respected around here. I have been ripped off
before with it locked.
As far as when I am in the mountains or the remote areas, I don't lock my car because I know that it is safe around those people. I leave my cameras
(thank you) and my money in the car.
I have posted regarding this before so I won't bore anyone with repeating myself.
I would not trust doing that anywhere in the u.s. or around any big cities in Mexico either.
You seem like a pretty straight up kinda guy and we have a lot in common as far as our upbringing. Pacificos on me when you are in the neighborhood.
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Capt. George
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Deliver Papers
Hey Al, how about shining shoes for drunks in bars at 12, how about fighting other kids for a street corner to sell pretzels and flags. Wow, a
house, bet you even had your own bed!!
Adios, finito, no mas para mi
El Vikingo
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Big Al
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You're On
Jr.
I new we had more in common than this and other threads we have presented. I just get fired up on certain subjects, and actually your original post
wasn't even about that. Just one sentence got me going. I am sensitive to negative USA comments. Regardless of our foreign policies good and bad
and some bad seeds, this great nation didn't get to be just that on blind luck. It came on the backs of all the great people that make it up. Sure
this country has the most messed up politics right now than any other time in history, but IMHO I haven't seen another country with a better system.
We just need to fix the one we have.
I love both the USA and Mexico so I try and extract and enjoy the good from each try not to dwell on the bad from either one. The best of both
worlds.
By the way Pacifico is now me beer of choice recently uncedeing XX lager. I'll get the second round.
Cap't, you win. Your story is a motivator. I am glad you ended up where you are today from where you started. although I thought you said
"I, BEING OF THE LUCKIEST GENERATION OF AMERICANS DID CONSIDERABLY BETTER, SORROWFULLY, MY CHILDREN WON'T. THE AMERICAN DREAM? WAS. " From your last
post it doesn't sound like you were the luckiest generation. I hope your children fare better than your above statement claims.
I don't claim to be poor or live a life of hardship, either way I made it because of opportunities that this country provided and I took advantage
of.
Big Al
[Edited on 7-23-2004 by Big Al]
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