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jrbaja
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Foreigners employing Mexicans in Baja
This is probably the wrong board to post this but there are a few who actually live here and know of what they speak.
My question is, do you as "legal" business owners include any type of profit sharing besides tourists tips for your "employees" ?
And do you pay for their IMSS medical insurance or an even better policy if there is one?
No offense is intended but I have seen many cases where the "foreigners" come in and start a successful business, hire the locals claiming they are
"bettering" the locals lives by paying them $30.00 to $100.00 per week which they weren't making before.
This was fine except for the fact that because the "foreigners" are now there, the prices have all gone up so their money doesn't go nearly as far
as it used to. In fact, the prices have gone up so much that they are limited to eating special things like meat and stuff once or twice a month.
Probably healthier for them anyway, right?
Except for one thing. Without happy employees, your business will eventually fail.
There may be a huge interest from the tourists but eventually, there will all of a sudden be a huge turnover in the employees, things will come up
missing, and the "atmosphere" will all of a sudden be not so tranquillo.
I watched it a bunch with beeznesses down here and am curious how the current people who are business owners are dealing with "helping the
Mexicans".
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Bajaboy
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JR-
That is not a new problem. In fact, there are many cities here in the US with the same problem. San Jose has had a challenging time finding service
empoyees. Also, they have had to provide housing assistance to attract teachers. I would call it a "middle-class" squeeze.
Zac
By the way, I do have friends who have a number of businesses in CSL and treat their employees very, very well. They understand the value of their
employees and thus treat them accordingly.
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Dave
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Two questions:
1. Just how much do you think that MEXICAN companies pay for similar labor?
2. You mentioned now that the "foreigners" are here prices have gone up. Just who raised them, and why?
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jrbaja
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Just a question Dave
but with the defensive approach rather than an answer, well, you know what I'm saying, right?
How many local Mexicans do you get in the deli eating?
And I don't think it's because they don't like pastrami !
There's more to this after I hear some more answers. Nothing bad either.
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Dave
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I think they were both legitimate questions.
I can tell you this:
As a rule, gringos (at least the ones I associate with) pay more, some MUCH more than their Mexican counterparts. They also strictly adhere to all
labor laws and pay all required benefits. If they don't they can be shut down.
Also QUALITY local labor in these parts is a rarity and is rewarded. Mexicans who can adapt to a U.S. work ethic are in high demand and can command
top dollar. Local gringo employers will bid against each other to hire these folks.
The second question was certainly sarcastic but deserves an answer. How do gringos affect the price of food at the local market or taco stand? Could
there be another dynamic at play? Maybe....greed?
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jrbaja
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Question #2
Many of the prices in Rosarito doubled when Titanic came to town. I watched it happen. And when it was done, the prices didn't go back down.
Of course it's because of greed but the ones who really suffer are the ones who were hurting to begin with. The Mexicans.
Except for a few of the wealthy ones who own tourism related businesses or real estate who also doubled their prices.
"Also QUALITY local labor in these parts is a rarity and is rewarded". How so ?
See my earlier posts regarding "profit sharing" and "insurance" before talking to me about "quality" help.
Do you have a " foreman"?
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jrbaja
Many of the prices in Rosarito doubled when Titanic came to town. I watched it happen. And when it was done, the prices didn't go back down.
Of course it's because of greed but the ones who really suffer are the ones who were hurting to begin with. The Mexicans.
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My friend, it wasn't gringos who doubled the prices. It was......The Mexicans. Maybe you should start another thread entitled, Mexicans screwing
themselves.
If you haven't noticed by now, it's what this country, the government and the oligarchy that runs it, specializes in.
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jrbaja
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Yep,
and many of us are doing a fine job of following suit.
Which is why many of the local businesses are short lived.
Two wrongs don't make a right here either!
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JESSE
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So we specialize in screwing ourselves Dave? is that what you are saying? is that what you tell all your Mexican neighboors?
[Edited on 8-10-2004 by JESSE]
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jrbaja
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And if that were truly the case,
shouldn't we as "advanced" ( ahem!) gringos try and show a better example?
I was hoping to hear from more of the business owners on this topic. I hope I haven't struck some nerves.
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Germanicus
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Folks, this topic is very much related to the one I posted in the 'Question and Answer' section.
I easily can see that opinions are going 180 degrees apart > the one towards West, the other one towards East.
To my opinion it is not worth to fight over "who raised the prices".
They are increased and that's the fact everybody has to live with.
i.e. we do have a lot of Mexicans in our town here in Texas.
They are certainly earning less than an American counterpart.
But prices are not decreasing because of that.
The market is dictating the price. That's an old rule and true all over the world.
So, when Gringos are pooring in a certain area, the local Mexican fishmarket will increase its prices (as the owner sees a chance to make more profit
with the Gringos)
So far JR is right. It's the Gringos.
But who is the one who gives a damn chit on his fellow buddies and whether or not they can afford?? It's the Mexican.
Well, each coin has two sides and from that perspective Dave is right.
Back to my example of our town.
The prices have doubled in the last 10 years here too.
But the store places ads with "" better quality and lower prices everyday"".
What is Wal-Mart doing all over the world? They are saying "we got Roll-Back-Prices""
Bull....! Even Wal-Mart is increasing the prices.
Well we have a saying for that.
You cannot run a profitable business by adding your own money always on top.
Then you better be a ladder manufacturer because everybody constantly has to buy new ladders for " always putting money on top of the old (debt)pile
from yesterday" .
my question is: Do the Mexicans really appreciate a good salery?
With beeing faithful and loyal to the employer.
Do they honorate good treatment?
With coming to work daily and not, after they earned some good bucks making vacations for the next week and you are running into trouble with the work
which isn't done?
I do not want to give me my own answer, better wait on your opinions, but I make a guess:
There are black sheep amoung each flock.
No matter whether that are US flocks or Mexican flocks.
Maybe that's why JR is always pointing his attention to having a reliable foreman who has to deal with these problems?
Did I catch the point?
You guys tell me!
Germanicus
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jrbaja
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Yep
you got the point. And yes, most do appreciate generosity/fairness although it by no means applies to everyone. Foreman's advice needed here!
An example is when I ran const. crews in orange county .ca, I hired a lot of Mexicans and taught them carpentry. The reason I hired a lot of
Mexicans was because the gringos were either too hungover to show up for work on Mondays, there were waves so they went to the beach, or they met some
new chick.
This was very typical so I used the Mexicans who were legal and wanted to work. They generally learned faster too.
I had foremen who were paid quite well and everyone else got paid according to their worth. Not according to their color.
It worked out well and everyone was happy. Same applies down here.
I suppose it all boils down to who you are and how you treat other people.
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capt. mike
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HUH!!???
how does an american citizen living and working in the U.S.A. become a "gringo" who doesn't show up for work??
JR - your obvious disdain for the real "gringo" architype has crept into your standard vernacular....a Freudian slip?
  :moon:
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
So we specialize in screwing ourselves Dave? is that what you are saying? is that what you tell all your Mexican neighboors?
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If you read the post carefully you would note that I said "The government and the oligarchy that runs it". I could be wrong but they sure look like
Mexicans to me. You folks either enjoy getting screwed or have very short memories considering you just elected a PRI/gangster as mayor of Tijuana.
So, which is it?
And I don't have to tell my Mexican neighbors, they tell me.
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jrbaja
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Hola Mike
The use of the word "gringo" isn't necessarily bad. Just means norte americanos. And sorry, this thread applies to all foreign business owners and
there are probably more Canadian ones in Mexico than gringo ones.
But, when it comes to "gringo" being applied to those "norte americanos" who are flakes, as in (spoiled rich kids with no responsibility) the term
is used pretty negatively.
I thought we'd been through this before.
And besides that, rather than get an answer to the question, I am getting a lot of other questions and the subject being changed.
I have to laugh at people who own businesses down here, (and up there) that are not fair with their employees. They are constantly complaining
about how things are stolen, people don't show up for work, many many problems arise including legal or even worse and they can't keep a good
employee.
In my opinion, and I have personally been witness to many examples down here, is that the foreign owners come in with the idea of paying their
employees as little as they can get away with.
And have a huge employee turnover because of the availability of workers.
But, it doesn't work like that. There is for one thing, a huge jealosy factor down here. And when many people who are poor, see this kind of
foreign money pouring into an establishment, they want some. And one way or another, they get some. And then the problems start, and then more
employees, and then no one will work for them anymore.
I'm not going to exactly spell out my own MO for dealing with this, but most of you should be able to figger it out.
And you don't hear me complaining about these people do you?
And Dave, the same problems and solutions apply to the successful Mexicano businesses. But this isn't about them.
I bet all your favorite established places to shop, eat, whatever, have had the same employees as when you first moved here! They are being
treated fairly!
And besides, aren't you a Mom n Pop business with 1 or 2 employees that you obviously treat fairly?
Or, has there been a big turnover?
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flyfishinPam
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really, it ain't the gringos that are the bad "guys"...
....for the most part the foreigners doing business need to adhere to
the law of the land more so than their Mexican counterparts, because
they are under the microscope with hacienda, immigration, etc. I
know this because I am one. So many times I hear of my Mexican
employer peers that they "can't pay", or pay part of what is owed, or disappear during the
qunicenal time period so as to aviod paying for awhile, or they promise more
than they can give...
I'm in the tourism industry, the only industry in Loreto. Mexico
has decided that tourism is going to be its "cash cow" so here I am
in the industry- I was once the exact kind of person that I now
market my services to- works out well knowing my target clientele...identify with your market, how brilliant! Most Mexicans have no real idea exactly
WHO they're selling their wares/services to and this is a big part of failures but another subject for another hilo..
I came here for various reasons
that don't need to be gotten into, but I'm an employer- in downtown,
in public, not hiding from anyone as its all up and up. The kind of
jobs that I stimulate are ones that have existed before I even knew
there was a Loreto. For the most part, I broker pangueros.
In the past, these local independent guys fended for themselves,
underselling their product to get some money only to lose most of it
to expenses that they didn't project. They are and were not
businesspersons. I am one. I am in business for a profit- so shoot
me! I pay the highest wages to the best pangueros in Loreto and
they beat my door down for work. If I need a boat on the busiest
day of the summer, I get one because of my reputation to pay well,
pay on time...and PAY period. My "competition" (non foreign) cannot
say the same.
-I will be making some more waves on this issue (independent pangueros, their livelihood and the tourism industry exposed) in a couple of months as I
work on a new project to promote these outstanding "cowboys of the sea" that I respect so much...so tune in- October 2004- I think you know where to
find me-
The other branches of employees I retain are administrative and
artisan. I choose to take women on as artisans making fishing
flies. They work in their own homes, on their own time and for
piecework as spelled out in individual contracts that apply to the particular job order. I supply the training and all materials and tools. Good
opportunity for ladies who would otherwise not have it. And I also
have a secretary who really likes her work. She has helped me with the "interesting" Mex accounting laws, while
learning a new aspect of tourism from a gringo point of view- reservations, accounting, computer
layouts.. and there's room for advancement. She was in a series of "go nowhere"
jobs before (emloyed by Mexicans!) but now has a future to look forward to (with a foreigner! who's soon to be naturalized in a matter of weeks).
The wages I pay are above average and fair and in accordance to skill levels and enthusiasm. I pay on time and I pay
well. All of the requirements are fufilled, seguro social and
infonavit, vacation, aginaldo, and profit sharing as those are manditory by
law. In addition to their normal pay, I give "gratificacion" and
folks in business here will understand what that means. Has
something to do with the "ley federal del trabajo"... You never want to
put on record more than the minimum amount of pay, or you'll pay
dearly later on....I ain't kiddin' about this. in addition to these things I've told all you curious folks, I also offer to pay for (and have done
so in the past) any
education that will advance their job skills, for example English
classes at the UABCS, or computer classes..as long as the educator will provide me with a factura so that I can write it off...
but I;m not the only generous and fair gringo employer. I believe
most of us are. I like most of the others are following the rules that were set before we even
stepped foot here. Again, I'm in business for a profit. Isn't
that what a business is for?
well..the fish are calling so I'd better get back to business..
fish ON!
Fly fishin' Pam
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jrbaja
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As far as what I was saying,
This pretty much says it all.
"I pay the highest wages to the best pangueros in Loreto and
they beat my door down for work."
Good on ya Pam. Sounds like you are making a huge positive impact on the community while not changing to many things if any in a negative way.
Are they all eating peanut butter, tuna sandwiches and diet yoghurt yet?
Just teasing!
Which brings to mind a story. Later.
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JESSE
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
So we specialize in screwing ourselves Dave? is that what you are saying? is that what you tell all your Mexican neighboors?
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If you read the post carefully you would note that I said "The government and the oligarchy that runs it". I could be wrong but they sure look like
Mexicans to me. You folks either enjoy getting screwed or have very short memories considering you just elected a PRI/gangster as mayor of Tijuana.
So, which is it?
And I don't have to tell my Mexican neighbors, they tell me. |
Dave, i am sorry your not up to date with the current political situation in Baja, and off course in Mexico, its far more complex than you understand
and unfortunately i dont have the time to offer a complete explanation on the reasons why Hank won and the PAN lost. Its simply naive to say that
Mexicans like getting screwed, and a little ignorant as well, i dont say i doubt your neighboors come up to you and say they like getting screwed, in
fact i am positive they dont.
I tell you what, if i was living in the states and the U.S. was kind enough to have offer me the oportunity to start a business when i showed up there
pretty much broke, i would at the very least be a little more grateful than you are, saying the people on wich nation i live and has given me the
oportunity to start a business that otherwise it would have been impossible to open in my home nation like getting screwed, is not insulting to me,
but to your neighboors, your suppliers, your customers, and your friends. I dont expect you to understand but if i was you i would keep my opinions
about Mexican society to myself, i am sure the Mexican goverment people you have to deal with to work and live here would not be very pleased with
your comments.
Have a good one.
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JESSE
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The Mexican labor laws where created with "protection" of the worker in mind, by protection i mean that corporations and busineses in theory have a
very hard time when it comes to firing a bad employee. Off course, Mexican companies and individuals have long ago figured out ways to fire or push
people out who you did not need or where bad employees, the ways are not written anywhere but everybody including the workers know when they are being
asked to leave.
The problem for foreigners is that as its all common to most of you, Mexican nationals and companies can get away with many things that foreing
individuals and corporations can't, and workers know this, workers here know that if they are hired by a foreigner, he can truly make the laws work
for him unlike with a Mexican company.
I know its not fair, but its the way it is.
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jrbaja
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So ya better
friggen treat em right as Pam does.
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