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surfer jim
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After 8 years he finally got one thing right......
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DENNIS
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Did they or did they not break a law which, by the book, earned them the sentance recieved?
I don't know. Did they or didn't they?
Is their commutation of sentance a statement that the law doesn't apply to them?
I don't know. Does, or doesn't it?
Does the emotional sentiment evident in this case preclude the letter of the law and, if so, what good is the letter of the law? Furthermore, what
good is law?
These men are caught up in this question. We also have to be caught up in this question........right or wrong.
What is it?
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MrBillM
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Doing the Right Thing
In my opinion, that would have been a pardon, but at least the commutation gives them freedom.
Hopefully, they'll find a benefactor in the private sector and can put their lives back together.
Too bad they didn't kill the drug-smuggler they shot. It would have worked out better for everyone including them. The shoot probably would have
been written off.
I saw the other day (Saturday) that Iraqi Shoe Man was still in prison according to his Lawyer and has received some fairly rough treatment. He may
be a hero to some, but, at least, they've beat him to crap a few times to show him the error of his ways.
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Bajahowodd
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The Iraqi shoe thrower is a hero to many. It sums up frustration with Bush's policies. It's not like he had a grenade, or was wearing explosives.
Worst he could've done was bruise Bush. To me, it was an appropriate coda to the past eight years.
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MrBillM
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Things DID work out for the best.
The shoes missed, the HERO got beaten up and is still in jail.
Can't ask for better.
We need a few more such results. I can think of a few (Hundred) Code Pinkos that I'd like to see the Iraqis mistreat. Cindy Scheisse with a pulpy
bleeding face is a thought worth imagining.
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Bajahowodd
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Wow. Sounds more like hate speech than opinion. Pinko is so last century. And perhaps you should get detention for cursing.
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David K
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Didn't they get charged for something rediculous like firearm possesion? They carry firearms as part of their job!
I think they mis-reported what happened, and that cost them their jobs... They did America a favor by shooting a drug dealer heading back into Mexico
to escape prosecusion? To bad they hit him in the butt instead of the head! Think of the good they did over the rules they didn't follow.
People that hurt our kids should be stopped at all costs. Those trying to stop the drug trafficing should not be punished that hard on a technicality.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
Did they or did they not break a law which, by the book, earned them the sentance recieved?
I don't know. Did they or didn't they?
Is their commutation of sentance a statement that the law doesn't apply to them?
I don't know. Does, or doesn't it?
Does the emotional sentiment evident in this case preclude the letter of the law and, if so, what good is the letter of the law? Furthermore, what
good is law?
These men are caught up in this question. We also have to be caught up in this question........right or wrong.
What is it? |
I want answers. You gosh darn numbnuts that speak to every ***in meaningless thing that comes up on this board have to acknowledge a serious question
when it's asked. Let's godamn hear something that resembles meaningful thought.
Respectfully yours, Dennis
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The Gull
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Calmate, Mennis, Calmate!!!!
�I won\'t insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.� William F. Buckley, Jr.
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BajaGringo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
I want answers. You gosh darn numbnuts that speak to every ***in meaningless thing that comes up on this board have to acknowledge a serious question
when it's asked. Let's godamn hear something that resembles meaningful thought.
Respectfully yours, Dennis |
I agree Dennis, and it is a topic worth having a serious discussion...
The law isn't just for the criminals, it is for all. Cops/CBP/FBI are not above the law. If anything they should be held to a higher standard. In law
enforcement you spend a good portion of your time dealing with the criminal element and what made the US different was our constitution and bill of
rights. Nobody in law enforcement gets a free pass and the fact that these guys lied about what happened, filed a false report and more only goes to
show that they knew they were in the wrong. The fact that the guy was a scumbag does not forgive them that fact. If we allow that we begin heading
down a very slippery slope. When we let those with the guns and badges also become judges and executioners we might as well abandon our entire legal
system.
You can't have it both ways...
[Edited on 1-20-2009 by BajaGringo]
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The Gull
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
No but I heard that there's an ex-congressman from San Diego standing by a pay phone at a minimum security facility in Tucson...
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There may be a shoe tapping Senator from Idaho looking for a Presidential pardon or asylum in Switzerland along with the show thrower
�I won\'t insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.� William F. Buckley, Jr.
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Bajahowodd
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"Me first!" -Scooter
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Packoderm
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What I would like to hear is how people justify their assertions one way or the other. Law vs. emotion? Extreme action for extremism's sake such as
saying "shoot the bastards" - whomever the bastards are and for whatever they've done? Interpretation of the law as in belief that agents are actually
allowed by law to shoot unarmed, fleeing suspects? Or could it be we just like to be on the cops' side whether they're right or wrong? Worry that our
agents won't be respected if they are dragged out when wrongdoing is suspected - sweep it under the rug? I really don't know. Everybody is keeping mum
except for what appears to be offhand remarks.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
You can't have it both ways...
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Thanks Ron.
You too, Gull. I appreciate the "calmates." I was having a med-malfunction moment for which I apologize to all.
Sorry again...I lost my talent for the quote box.
[Edited on 1-20-2009 by DENNIS] |
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Packoderm
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K I think they mis-reported what happened, and that cost them their jobs... They did America a favor by shooting a
drug dealer heading back into Mexico to escape prosecusion? To bad they hit him in the butt instead of the head! Think of the good they did over the
rules they didn't follow.
People that hurt our kids should be stopped at all costs. Those trying to stop the drug trafficing should not be punished that hard on a technicality.
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The guy was only smuggling marijuana - something less toxic than cigarettes and even the Pacifico and Tecate so many of us profess to love. He was
breaking the law and should have owned up to that and allow the agents to arrest him. However, sneaking marijuana is not a capital offense. Even
sneaking across the border is not a capital offense. If we want to militarize the border and pass laws allowing the shooting of all transgressors,
then one side's (mine) goes out the window. I just don't like vagueness of law and dishonesty.
But shooting an unarmed, fleeing suspect is not according to the law. Is that part concerning the law clear, or is there contention with that
assertion?
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BajaGringo
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It is a tough subject Dennis and one that is easy to get your emotions going but that is why our legal system is designed to NOT empower those in law
enforcement to also act as judge, jury and executioner. They are caught up in the emotion and heat of the moment. These agents knew they had crossed
the line and that is why they lied about it and filed false reports.
Besides, if we are going to start shooting drug runners there are some CIA employees that might start feeling bit nervous about that policy...
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Bajafun777
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OK, I will give the version that I have heard and seems to be pretty close to the truth, as the consequences revolve around these actions by the
officers. First, these two officers were working at night in an area where a lot of drugs and assualts on officers occur. Ramos was given a
commendation a year or so ago before his incident. Both officers had good evaluations and good things said by everyone in their communities about
them also before this night. During this night a van was seen entering in an area that is known for trafficers entering. The officers were not
together at the moment of the enter or chase but in fact in different vehicles. When the chase occurred Ramos was behind Campean a few minutes. Both
were in radio contact as this van was trying to elude them on these dirt roads and this crook who in fact had done drug and illegal immigrant running
several times before and awaiting court on one he just did. So, back to Campean getting in foot pursuit after this crook in the dark and finally
caught up to him and the fight to avoid arrest started. Ramos arrived knowing his fellow officer was involved in a foot pursuit and last radio contact
was for assistance. According to Ramos as he was running calling to Campean and then Campean was in a life and death struggle with the crook over his
weapon he was trying to take from him. The crook got the weapon out of Campean's holster and a shot rang out in the dark. This gave a better
direction to Ramos still running to Campean's aid. The crook got away by punching Campean in the face as he had both hands back on his weapon and the
crook after punching him ran off with the weapon. Officer Ramos saw his fellow officer on the ground and this crook running off so as he yelled for
him to stop the crook turned and Ramos saw a weapon and fired. The guy ran into Mexico by then and Ramos stopped giving chase as he could not enter
Mexico. He thought he had missed because the crook kept running he went back to his fellow officer. They called in to their supervisor and here is
where the story gets crossed over as to what happened. They said they left but since nobody in custody and his fellow officer had been banged around
they did not make a report. This was very bad as we all know if you do not document it then be prepared to have any and all things said to which you
will surely face the fire for not writing a report. Now, the next thing is that the next day during the daylight these two officers went back to the
scene walked it and during their walk around they picked up their brass, shells, and said to each other since nothing happened as to an arrest or
serious injury we will not do a report. Now, they say the supervisors let this happen on a regular basis but supervisors say not when shots fired. So,
the crook did get hit and it appears in the butt but did not tell authorities about this until his next arrest for smuggling either illegals or drugs.
The Mexican Counsel files a complaint when he tells them this and the investigation ended with the two officers charged in Federal Court. The court
would not let the officers attorneys tell the jury this crook had a history of drug and illegal immigrant smuggling as it would make the jury think
bad of him and thus the guilty verdicts. Too bad and if anything comes of any good on this all officers see just how important any incident even if
just verbal should be document on any shift they work. The damn crook is still in custody from the last arrest he got caught while running drugs while
the investigation was going on with the two border patrol officers. Too bad and 12 years was way off base but unfortunately some of these Federal
Judges that get to serve for life and don't think certain Federal Judges do not come from the "stupid end" remember they were attorneys and attorney
jokes are so real in most cases. Again too bad but at least they get another chance in life, hope they make it. One bad decision by an officer is one
too many just the way it is and you know it going into this line of work. So, tell anyone you know in law enforcement document, document, document
even if your supervisor says not too just an email addressing your version of the incident and your understanding an official report not needed. Yea,
you know it, it will become necessary very quickly. Now, that is as close to what I have heard this incident is about and who knows for sure but one
thing is for sure this crook has done this numerous times and as the jail time becomes more in the making for prison time this crook will end up
killing one of these officers or they will kill him and God save the officer that does kill him as he will be going to Federal Court.
Later====bajafun777
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BajaGringo
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It should make zero difference if the guy was a crook or a choir boy. Law enforcement has to toe the legal line, just as we are required to do. The
version you quoted is the one they presented some time later to cover up why they had filed a false report in the first place. I talked to family of
mine in law enforcement and all agreed that when your weapon is fired a report is made. They also agreed that while they had sympathy for these guys,
it definitely sounded like they were just covering their tracks. The struggle for the gun thing is what gave it away for them. They all agreed that is
an officers standard cover for questionable shooting situations.
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tigerdog
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| Quote: |
I want answers. You gosh darn numbnuts that speak to every ***in meaningless thing that comes up on this board have to acknowledge a serious question
when it's asked. Let's godamn hear something that resembles meaningful thought.
Respectfully yours, Dennis |
Not really sure I have any answers, but I do have some facts and a few more questions.
The drug smuggler was not shot in the back. He was shot in the left buttock and the bullet passed through to lodge in his right thigh. The trajectory,
according to expert testimony at the trial, indicates that his body was turned at a leftward angle toward the agents at the time, which COULD (I said
COULD ) support their statement that they thought he was pointing a gun at them (the smuggler is left handed).
DID he have a gun? Only 3 people will ever know the truth of that: the agents and the smuggler, because contrary to testimony given by another agent
at the trial it has been pretty authoritatively demonstrated that no one else was in a position to see what happened at the time.
The smuggler, BTW, was caught smuggling something like $1 million worth of drugs while he was waiting to testify against the agents. He was
tried and convicted to several years in prison in 2006, following the conviction of the agents. He had been given freedom to cross into the USA pretty
much at will as part of his agreement to testify.
There are also some legitimate questions regarding whether or not the charges of filing false reports, etc. really hold water. The Border Patrol, of
course, has their own explanations for that and I'm making no judgment about it since they are biased in favor of the agents. You can see their
position here, if you're interested. http://rohrabacher.house.gov/UploadedFiles/NBPC%20rebuttal_to_sutton.pdf
You might also be interested in the prosecuting attorney. That would be Johnny Sutton, a US Attorney General for the Western District of Texas, a
friend of Bush and former Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez. He was appointed by Bush. For what it's worth, I remember some time back when a reporter
asked Bush if he was going to look into the case and Bush essentially said no, because Sutton was his friend and he trusted his judgment. Given that,
it's particularly interesting that he commuted their sentences. Maybe a nod to pressure from Congress, while not completely going against his friend
Sutton?
Anyhow, Sutton doesn't look any too clean if you really dig into his history a bit. Here are some rather interesting links that you all might find
intriguing: 
Link # 1
Link # 2
Link # 3
I'm not actually defending the agents, but there has always been something hinky about that case. Why do I think so? Because I was curious about it
and just anal retentive enough to dig for information that never made it to the MSM. 
\"You know Hobbes, sometimes even my lucky rocket-ship underpants don\'t help.\" - Calvin, from Calvin and Hobbes
Visit me at Rocky Point Tides
http://rptides.blogspot.com/ |
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The Sculpin
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I don't care who they are or who they shot. They lied, pure and simple, and for that they are paying the price, as well they should!!!!! If I lied in
my job, not only would I lose my job, I probably would go to jail for awhile. Why should they be any different? They know the rules.
The gun charge seemed over the top, and Bush corrected that, so I guess all is well.
As for all those who are screaming pardon, do you really understand what you are asking? To be pardoned, you have to admit guilt. These guys have
their case under appeal and think they have a chance at overturning the verdict. They do not want a pardon! Crikey - now that's what I call real life
poker!!!!
Tomorrow is a new day.................
Whoa there, Cowboy - pull back on those reins!
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