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BajaGringo
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[*] posted on 3-9-2009 at 08:48 PM


The problem with your analysis DK is that "booming" economy you mentioned was based largely on an inflated real estate market funded by mortgage bankers lending to almost anybody with a pulse. It was a ticking time bomb waiting to blow. You surely cannot point to any particular policy of the last administration that "helped" the economic "boom" as you call it? As I recall the prior occupant at 1600 Pennsylvania was more occupied with expanding the federal government by more than 50% and funding the entire operation with bonds sold to the Chinese that our great grandchildren will be struggling to pay. That expansion he created was a "gift that keeps on giving" that will continue to be carried over and added to our out of control debt. Both sides of the aisle voted to approve that idiotic spending and I hold them both responsible. I don't like what is going on with the current administration but I find it hilarious to hear the right suddenly become "outraged" with all this spending. Where were you guys last year? And the year before? And the year before that and the year before that???

It sounds rather hypocritical IMHO.




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[*] posted on 3-9-2009 at 10:43 PM


All responsible Republicans were outraged by the Bushies spending habits, and said so over and over again. FOX NEWS reported those objections, time and time again, as did others.

Bush's primary gift to the the "booming economy", and it surely was booming, was his tax policy, and that was HUGE.

"Mark to Market" policies were the catlyst that exploded the credit markets, along with other nutty policies.

As far back as 2002 Bush, and others, were warning (and it is fully documented on the net) in the strongest terms possible to rein in Fannie and Freddie and the near insane lending tatics that the Dems were pushing, and demanding, in the name of "home ownership for all", but Bush contributed to the insanity by encouraging that policy, even when he knew it was a time bomb waiting to happen.

And many people were acting nuts, fully knowing that they could not afford the loans they were taking out----why they did this I have never understood. (greed???)

Lots of blame to go around.

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[*] posted on 3-9-2009 at 11:20 PM


Barry- You rightly recognize a problem that has arisen between that haves and have nots. But you appear to be adamant that some form of redistribution is anathma. I don't really want to go down the same road as before, but it was Reagan that kicked sick people out of mental facilities so they could wander the streets with shopping carts and live under freeway overpasses. How about starting with univeral healthcare. I personally feel that it is a crime that the United States does not come close, measuring against other industrialized countries, to the top on longevity and has a horrible record on infant mortality. There has to be a point where lucid thinkers have to realize that there are certain things that the so-called free market cannot, or will not deliver to society because their allegiance is to profits before people's well being.
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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 03:41 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Bush's primary gift to the the "booming economy", and it surely was booming, was his tax policy, and that was HUGE.


With all due respect, the "booming economy" was an illusion. It was a bubble (actually at least 3 bubbles, bubbling simultaneously). His tax policy redistributed wealth from the bottom to the top, thus contributing to the wealth gap. During the last eight years, real incomes for working people have stagnated or declined. Poverty rose. We had eight years with no net job creation. The nutrition problem in our country grew worse, culminating with ten percent of the population on food stamps -- and this was before the financial collapse. We experienced skyrocketing costs for housing, higher education and medical care at the same time government was threatening to yank away safety net programs like Social Security.

The last eight years weren't a party for most Americans.

Quote:
"Mark to Market" policies were the catlyst that exploded the credit markets, along with other nutty policies.


It was considerably more complicated than that. See below.

Quote:
As far back as 2002 Bush, and others, were warning (and it is fully documented on the net) in the strongest terms possible to rein in Fannie and Freddie and the near insane lending tatics that the Dems were pushing, and demanding, in the name of "home ownership for all", but Bush contributed to the insanity by encouraging that policy, even when he knew it was a time bomb waiting to happen.


Fannie and Freddy were A problem, but they weren't THE problem. If you're looking for a major cause of the current banking meltdown, you need look no farther than the 1999 repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act.

The Glass-Steagall Act, passed in 1933, mandated the separation of commercial and investment banking in order to protect depositors from the hazards of risky investment and speculation. It worked fine for fifty years until the banking industry began lobbying for its repeal during the 1980s. They were finally successful in late 1999 when Clinton signed into law The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Services Modernization Act, which repealed part of the Glass-Steagall Act, opening up competition among banks, securities companies and insurance companies. Republican Phil Gramm wrote most of that bill, pushed hard for its passage and still supports it today-- and a majority of Dems also voted for it. With regulation and oversight removed, it was a disaster waiting to happen.

Quote:
And many people were acting nuts, fully knowing that they could not afford the loans they were taking out----why they did this I have never understood. (greed???)


If you want to gain an understanding of how the whole thing went down, I highly recommend watching CNBC's documentary "House of Cards, The Definitive Look At The Origins Of Today's Global Economic Crisis". You can watch it online at Hulu (for free), and I promise it is NOT boring. Break out the popcorn; it's a couple hours long. ;)
http://www.hulu.com/watch/59026/cnbc-originals-house-of-card...

Quote:
Lots of blame to go around.


Boy, you got that right! :O

[Edited on 3-10-2009 by tigerdog]




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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 09:11 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
The problem with your analysis DK is that "booming" economy you mentioned was based largely on an inflated real estate market funded by mortgage bankers lending to almost anybody with a pulse. It was a ticking time bomb waiting to blow. You surely cannot point to any particular policy of the last administration that "helped" the economic "boom" as you call it? As I recall the prior occupant at 1600 Pennsylvania was more occupied with expanding the federal government by more than 50% and funding the entire operation with bonds sold to the Chinese that our great grandchildren will be struggling to pay. That expansion he created was a "gift that keeps on giving" that will continue to be carried over and added to our out of control debt. Both sides of the aisle voted to approve that idiotic spending and I hold them both responsible. I don't like what is going on with the current administration but I find it hilarious to hear the right suddenly become "outraged" with all this spending. Where were you guys last year? And the year before? And the year before that and the year before that???

It sounds rather hypocritical IMHO.


YOU ARE RIGHT!

Bush could not veto anything put in front of him (it seemed).... a fiscal conservative, he was NOT!

The Republicans lost congress when they stopped being conservative...

Since there was no other way to 'teach them a lesson', they got replaced by Democrats... Only problem is that Democrats today are total Socialists, believing that only government programs can solve problems (and keep them in power by 'giving' to people who haven't earned what they get).

If John Kennedy where alive today, he would not recognize the Democrat party... Back then, you could vote for either party and know they both loved America and wanted her to be strong and successful... Now, the Republicans are like the Democrats of Kennedy's time and the Democrats act more like the communist party in Cuba!

Anyway, the election is over... we have what we have... now we will see what happens...

Thanks Ron.




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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 09:11 AM


None of you see that part of today's problem with big industry - which put people to work and made our products exportable (produce, produce, produce) - is that UNIONIZATION demanded more and more wages and benefits. The ultimate upshot of that is today's unsustainable burden of retirement and health benefit expenditures that auto mfrs. and other industries are saddled with. There is no compromise with those who are owed pension payments and health benefits which were negotiated and contracted for. These public companies answer to their shareholders and Wall Street, and are ham-stringed because of their constant payout constraints.
Going forward, pension and health care for employees must take a back seat to the fundamental factor of the job and its wage in order to rebuild. Continuing in the same vein would change nothing. Govt. subsidized healthcare, and/or reining in healthcare costs and insurance premiums is essential to a strong economic future - it lets employers off the hook and makes companies more profitable and able to hire more people.
Another factor that ultimately led to economic downturn is years of creating electronic products which ostensibly enabled companies to do their work more efficiently with fewer people. So companies bought gizmos, got efficient and laid people off so they could operate with less overhead. More and more gizmos, more and more people out of work. We've used technology to supplant peoples' jobs.
Other factors include the denegration of natural resources over the past generation, so that now, what previously was sustainable and offered people jobs in forestry, fishing, etc. is now gone.

The focus must change to reverse the forces that caused this multi-faceted economic downturn: JOBS of a new kind
to clean up mining sites
reforestation
using byproducts of all kinds
recyling and creating new products from them
creating cheaper alternative energy products like solar panels, batteries
using byproducts to invigorate farms and produce crops for cheap export to feed the world instead of subsidizing to not grow crops
in education of all kinds that is affordable and available to everyone
in healthcare of all kinds that is affordable and available to everyone

And the obvious overspending that the war has entailed has derailed our economy as well - no money for infrastructure or grants (which would create jobs).

And our global trade obligations got unbalanced to favor Asian products versus our own. Time for re-balancing and protectionism (more jobs).
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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 09:14 AM


Thanks for helping to explain why I have lost any allegiance to either side of the political aisle. They are both responsible for taking us down and I wish we could get away from making this just a left-right thing. While we are all fighting THEY have made quite sure to take care of themselves financially and we are all left holding the bill...



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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 09:16 AM


------and Tigerdog's post points out vividly the different perspectives and different rulers we use in measuring things by conservatives and liberals-----------and that is the way it will always be.

I do not substantially disagree with anything Tigerdog says, with the exception of Glass-Stegal which should have been repealed IMO because it was too restrictive---------but for sure it's repeal released a storm of abuse-------so something inbetween is perhaps what is needed.

However, the ruler that Tigerdog (and most others) uses for measuring "progress" is part of the problem, it seems to me, and addresses the very things that were put forth earlier in this thread-----------namely that "progress" is determined by the accumulation of "things", to a large degree, and when folks believe that they cannot afford the "things" that they want, they feel deprived. We simply cannot continue to accumulate "things" anymore, mainly because they are not necessary for our daily living, and they are environmentally unsound. However, I realize that this type of thinking causes a huge blow to the traditional way that America measures "progress"-----if people don't buy "things", then the economy stagnates. (Maybe that is good??? I really don't know)

My main two arguments against "Universal Health Care" is that we cannot afford it, and it will be rife with abuse. Medicare is already a fiscal nightmare because of abuse--------think what Uni-H-Care will be like? This is not to mention what it will do to medical progress and medical breakthroughs, which are mainly accomplished thru the profit motive incentive.

And finally, I can only measure a booming economy thru my own experience, and what I see going on around me--------and those two rulers told me that things were booming.

It is interesting to note that my house gained in value for the first 12 years I owned it (1986 to 1998) not one cent-----bought for $80K and there it remained. Since 1998 the value of my house went to an appraised value of $290K in mid-2007------and now it is worth about $240K--------Am I worse off house-wise then I was??? a little, but I am still vastly ahead of where I was in 1998. That is progress, with a capitol "P".

So what is going on, and where as a nation we are economically is viewed thru different prisms, for sure.

Barry
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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 09:48 AM


"medical progress and medical breakthroughs, which are mainly accomplished thru the profit motive incentive"

which drives up prescription costs; makes people sick due to over-medication; makes people sick from side effects. "cure" for cancer? How about stopping the cause of cancer - food additives, polluted air, water, chemicals in our home products, processed foods, too much sugar, too much salt in every single thing food mfrs. produce; chemicals in our poultry, cattle, pigs' food; depleted farm soil; pesticides. We'd be much further ahead if all those cancer researchers pooled their grants and put away their egos and shared information. I met a woman from Europe who is a cancer researcher who has strung out her research work because she wants to stay in the USA. She needs another grant to do so. It appears her first priority is living in the USA with her daughter so her daughter can go to school here - not advancing her research. This is not an isolated situation.

Turn the focus on health and create the jobs for a healthier generation with less cancer, fewer drugs, preventive healthcare in local clinics, home health, short-term board and care homes instead of hospitals.
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shocked.gif posted on 3-10-2009 at 10:13 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The Republicans lost congress when they stopped being conservative...

Since there was no other way to 'teach them a lesson', they got replaced by Democrats... Only problem is that Democrats today are total Socialists, believing that only government programs can solve problems (and keep them in power by 'giving' to people who haven't earned what they get).

If John Kennedy where alive today, he would not recognize the Democrat party... Back then, you could vote for either party and know they both loved America and wanted her to be strong and successful... Now, the Republicans are like the Democrats of Kennedy's time and the Democrats act more like the communist party in Cuba!


DK,
You're a good chap, and helpful to many fellow Nomads here... but I'd like to challenge you to rethink a few of your comments.

a. the Republicans lost congress when they were voted out by the public (they stopped being "conservative" LONG before they were voted out.... unfortunately)

b. do you think making your absolutes like "Democrats today are total Socialists" is in any way helpful, or accurate? That is really massive generalizing and very polarizing.... A healthy exchange of diverse ideas is a good thing and is what our form of govt. has been built on ~ and benefitted from, but our govt. and our country today is sufferring from "absolutism", extremism, marginalizing, and increasing hatred and blame in many camps.

And lastly....

c. the communist party in Cuba...??? All this "bailout" crap started with GWB and his admin. The common theme with both the D's and the R's is that they are socializing the debts of the rich, after allowing the unregulated criminals to skulk away with immense individual and corporate fortunes.... The profit was never socialized...

I'd sincerely like to invite you to do less generalizing and marginalizing in your comments. While I find I sometimes agree with you on some of your content, your delivery on political ideas is quite alienating....

For whatever it is worth to you (perhaps nothing...?) something to ponder, amigo.




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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 11:56 AM


Quote:
However, the ruler that Tigerdog (and most others) uses for measuring "progress" is part of the problem, it seems to me, and addresses the very things that were put forth earlier in this thread-----------namely that "progress" is determined by the accumulation of "things", to a large degree, and when folks believe that they cannot afford the "things" that they want, they feel deprived. We simply cannot continue to accumulate "things" anymore, mainly because they are not necessary for our daily living, and they are environmentally unsound.


Barry I don't know how you arrived at the conclusion, from my post, that I use that ruler to measure progress. It's wildly off the mark. I agree with you about the accumulation of 'things'. The selfish "I want it now" mentality that's developed over the last many years is not healthy for individuals, countries or the environment. I think personal responsibility and living within one's means needs to be reintroduced into the public vocabulary, and that public includes corporate boardrooms and Wall Street.

My mom and dad grew up during the Great Depression, and Mom had a rule that has stuck with me all these years: "Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without". Not to say I'm a penny-P-ncher, but man can I "make it do"! :)

I do encourage everyone to watch that documentary I linked to above. It has neither a left nor right bias and as a result is quite good investigative reporting. Some very interesting interviews with some interesting people, too. I learned a lot from it, and it gave me new avenues for research to learn more on my own. I am not interested in spin and don't rely on the reports of pundits and talking heads. I look for the factual data on my own to determine whether or not my views hold water. When they don't hold water it truly annoys me, :mad: but I will change my views to fit the data.

I think these labels we put on each other of "left" "right" "socialist" "fascist" etc. are totally unhelpful. We don't need to be bipartisan at this point. We need to be NONpartisan. We are all Americans, we all love our country and want the best for it. Now we are in the midst of a terrible crisis and need to work together to get out of it. Calling each other names and accusing each other of being unpatriotic or unAmerican is counter productive. (Edited to add that I'm not referring to you personally here, Barry)

[Edited on 3-10-2009 by tigerdog]




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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 12:05 PM


Tigerdog---------now going back to your original post, I don't know how I came to that conclusion either. Sorry, my mistake. (communication is sometimes so difficult when we don't read or listen carefully, and I sure contributed to that this time).

Your Mom was/is very wise.

What you now say I agree with---------and well said.

Barry

[Edited on 3-10-2009 by Barry A.]
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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 12:14 PM


Thank you for that, Barry. Communication is also difficult when you can't watch body language or hear tone of voice. It's very refreshing to be able to discuss such things civilly and with respect for each other, isn't it.

If only the rest of the country could learn from us wonderful Nomads. ;D




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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 12:19 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by djh
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The Republicans lost congress when they stopped being conservative...

Since there was no other way to 'teach them a lesson', they got replaced by Democrats... Only problem is that Democrats today are total Socialists, believing that only government programs can solve problems (and keep them in power by 'giving' to people who haven't earned what they get).

If John Kennedy where alive today, he would not recognize the Democrat party... Back then, you could vote for either party and know they both loved America and wanted her to be strong and successful... Now, the Republicans are like the Democrats of Kennedy's time and the Democrats act more like the communist party in Cuba!


DK,
You're a good chap, and helpful to many fellow Nomads here... but I'd like to challenge you to rethink a few of your comments.

a. the Republicans lost congress when they were voted out by the public (they stopped being "conservative" LONG before they were voted out.... unfortunately)

b. do you think making your absolutes like "Democrats today are total Socialists" is in any way helpful, or accurate? That is really massive generalizing and very polarizing.... A healthy exchange of diverse ideas is a good thing and is what our form of govt. has been built on ~ and benefitted from, but our govt. and our country today is sufferring from "absolutism", extremism, marginalizing, and increasing hatred and blame in many camps.

And lastly....

c. the communist party in Cuba...??? All this "bailout" crap started with GWB and his admin. The common theme with both the D's and the R's is that they are socializing the debts of the rich, after allowing the unregulated criminals to skulk away with immense individual and corporate fortunes.... The profit was never socialized...

I'd sincerely like to invite you to do less generalizing and marginalizing in your comments. While I find I sometimes agree with you on some of your content, your delivery on political ideas is quite alienating....

For whatever it is worth to you (perhaps nothing...?) something to ponder, amigo.


Damn, I wish I could have said something like that! Thanks!




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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 12:36 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
The focus must change to reverse the forces that caused this multi-faceted economic downturn: JOBS of a new kind
to clean up mining sites
reforestation
using byproducts of all kinds
recyling and creating new products from them
creating cheaper alternative energy products like solar panels, batteries
using byproducts to invigorate farms and produce crops for cheap export to feed the world instead of subsidizing to not grow crops
in education of all kinds that is affordable and available to everyone
in healthcare of all kinds that is affordable and available to everyone


Regarding "using byproducts of all kinds, recyling and creating new products from them"...

The other day I was watching HGTV and saw a segment where designers were using wood-chip mulch for a yard. At least I THOUGHT it was wood-chips. Turns out it was made from old tires and just looked like wood! It looked very nice and has the advantage of not decaying like wood (so it doesn't have to be replaced), keeps the ground cool, helps prevent runoff when it rains (encouraging plant growth and discouraging erosion) and doesn't smell like old tires (lol). I didn't investigate to see how environmentally friendly it is to create this product; I'm just using it as one example of recycling a product to create a new use for it.

Considering the number of old tires polluting the landscape and landfills, at least from a superficial viewpoint this seems like a good deal. I wondered, as I watched, if that might not be a good product for certain uses in a desert environment, particularly for replacing some gravel landscaping (it's hot in the summer and adds to the heat island effect) and using less water to grow trees, bushes, etc.

They are also using finely ground and treated tires to resurface horse racing tracks, with very excellent results for the health of the horses (not as many injuries when racing).

And, of course, there are companies building houses out of old tires. Those are interesting.

Entrepreneurship, thinking green-- lots of jobs can be created by thinking out of the box.




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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 01:06 PM


I just want to get back to Baja!:bounce:

Google Earth is close, but no cigar!:light:

I hope we all can remain friends no matter what our politics are... Friendship is more important than 'being right' (or 'left')!!!:tumble:




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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 01:12 PM


Right on! (no pun intended):lol:



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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 01:21 PM


Quote:
I hope we all can remain friends no matter what our politics are... Friendship is more important than 'being right' (or 'left')!!!:tumble:


There's the DK we love !
Amen to that, David. PEOPLE are more important than things (like politics :-).
djh (the other david)




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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 01:24 PM


WHO... ME??? :lol:




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[*] posted on 3-10-2009 at 01:55 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by morgaine7
Quote:
Originally posted by tigerdog
If you want to gain an understanding of how the whole thing went down, I highly recommend watching CNBC's documentary "House of Cards, The Definitive Look At The Origins Of Today's Global Economic Crisis". You can watch it online at Hulu (for free), and I promise it is NOT boring. Break out the popcorn; it's a couple hours long. ;)
http://www.hulu.com/watch/59026/cnbc-originals-house-of-card...

"Sorry, currently our video library can only be streamed from within the United States". :( Thanks for posting it, though. It sounds informative.

Kate


Bummer. Well, for what it's worth you can catch the first 8 or 9 minutes of it on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11li6Iw4TeY

You can get some of it at MSNBC, too (text and video)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29163182/

Gotta love the opening quote for the show: "Let's hope we are all wealthy and retired by the time this house of cards falters." --internal email, Wall Street, 12/15/06

If you get CNBC, it will be on again Sunday, March 15, 2009 at 9p ET. It's worth the watch (or Tivo it)




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"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen. The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez

 

"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Theodore Roosevelt

 

"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes

 

"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn

 

"The best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer." - Cunningham's Law







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