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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
   
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Barry A.
You stated:
"The HUGE PROBLEM that is looming over all this, and has not been addressed adaquately, is the growing disparity between the "have nots, and the
haves", and until we reverse that trend (and I have no idea how to do that) we are headed for big-time problems, which are already haunting
us---------the "folks" simply cannot be left out (even tho largely a perception problem), or all hell will break loose.
Redistribution is ABSOLUTELY NOT THE ANSWER, and that I KNOW. But something MUST be done, and done soon. Maybe "Iflyfish" and others have a
solution----if so, I would like to hear it."
I believe djh gets at this with the following comment:
"The common theme with both the D's and the R's is that they are socializing the debts of the rich, after allowing the unregulated criminals to skulk
away with immense individual and corporate fortunes.... The profit was never socialized..."
My view is that wealth is always being redistributed. It flows from one group to another.
Wealth has been redistributed from the lower and middle class to the upper class for the past 20plus years in unprecented amounts. Now the top 10% own
40% of the wealth. An example of this is the amount of Corporate Executive pay has escalated during this time. The gap between wage earner and
Executives has widened again in an unprescented rate.
Look at the amounts paid to Executives of Financial, Insurance, Drug and Medical Services industries. Trillions of dollars have been redistrubuted to
the upper class during the past 20plus years. That is redistribution of wealth. The term has been hijacked. It is actually a value neutral term.
Capitalism, Socialism and Communism are all engaged in strategies to distribute and redistribute wealth.
In Socialist and Communist economies the government, the people, own both the raw materials and the means of production and distribution. In
Capitalist countries individuals can own the raw materials, means of production and distribution. Both need to find ways of accomplishing the
distribution and redistribution of wealth. This is the function of taxation. It moves money from private hands to the government, the people.
The inherant flaw of Capitalism is that wealth accrues to a few, it simply works that way. If too much wealth accrues to a few, is distributed by the
economy to a few, then there must be ways found to "level the playing field" or eventually you get social unrest and revolution, either by force as in
China, Russia, Cuba etc. or you do it by the ballot box i.e. the USofA in the last election.
The inherant flaw of Socialism and Communism is that incentive for creativity and generitivity is minimalized as the basic needs of the people are
provided for. There is little incentive to achieve a lot when you are provided with most of your needs. In Communist and Socialist centrally planned
economies there is little incentive for creating something new as the profits go to the people. See the countries of the old Soviet Union.
No system is perfect and all must find methods for distributing and redistributing wealth.
One can see the current efforts of the new administration is to find some ways to redistribute wealth by putting money in the hands of working people
by providing funding of last resort to businesses that are engaged in all sorts of endeavors including infrastructure repair and development. This is
a form of redistribution of wealth and appropriatly labeled as such. Most economists agree with this strategy in the face of collapse of the
Capitalist economy that was morphed out of all proportion by manipulation of value of home mortgages and the lack of the financial industry to stand
behind their loans since the values were so highly leveraged and bloated so as to have no clear relation to the real value.
The rest is now history that we are re-living if you go back and review the history of the USofA economy and it's bubbles and busts, the Robber
Barrons, The Great Depression, The New Deal etc.
Iflyfish
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
    
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Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Good take Flyfish. I believe you have it figured out. Now how do you convince that 10 percent to share that 40 percent? Nobody like to give away
money(except me it seems) and how do you convince people to be capitalists if the incentive(being rich) looks less attractive.
I see the argument though, these folks believe their wealth was legit and they worked to earn it. Isn't that the American dream?
So when we speak of leveling the playing field through taxation and opportunity we also speak about about equal taxation for all demographics. Isn't
that the fairest way?
I mean why should the rich only pay out an average of 6% while everyone else is in the 14% range. I was naive about that for a long time. I figured
they paid their lawyers, accountants etc to make that happen.
It just came with the turf I figured. Little did I realize exactly how unfair and how much that "free" money amounted to.
So the new pill is big to swallow for the wealthy. I think it's called fear. Fear of losing money. It's no wonder all we hear are the naysayers
dumping on Obama.
Isn't the media owned primarily by just a few rich cats? It seems that way.
btw, I always have had some contention for the 40 year olds who cashed in on the real estate market and retired at 45. Now I'm not so sure that gamble
paid off for those who stayed in.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
   
Posts: 3747
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Sharks,
There needs to be some balance established and it is an ongoing process. The pendulum swings and we are now in the beginning of another swing.
There is and always will be a tension in the dynamics between Owner-Management/Labor, Capitalists/Labor, Church/State, Haves/Have Nots, Weak/Strong,
Male/Female etc. No one likes the Tax Collector and never have in history. No one wants their ox gored.
It would appear from laboratory research that Bubbles are inherent in markets and they ALWAYS show up in studies that are well controlled and
reproducible. People find it very hard to not follow the bubble, even in the face of clear evidence. Greed is part of this process. There is reason
for the inclusion of Greed, Avarice and Sloth in the Seven Deadly Sins. These human behaviors are to be found throughout history and there needs to be
a form of counterbalance to these inherent motivations; thus the need for laws and a “balance of power”. Sic Transit Gloria Mundi, Latin for: Thus
Passes the Glory of the World. If one reads Roman History you will find exactly the same dynamics.
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
   
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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I too have noticed the general civility of this very difficult discussion and really appreciate it.
I have also noticed that there are over 4,500 hits to this thread, more than any I can recall in the recent past. It is clear that there is a lot of
interest in the topic and a lot of very good dialogue about it.
We are fortunate to be part of a community where a discussion like this can take place and where real differences can be expressed and not get flamed.
It is clear to me that this topic is one that is vital to many on this forum and I am glad that it has been allowed to continue.
Iflyfish
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Bajahowodd
Elite Nomad
    
Posts: 9274
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Location: Disneyland Adjacent and anywhere in Baja
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I have two comments. First, this thread has become about as "off-topic" as one could imagine.
Second- I truly hope we aren't walking in the footsteps of Rome.
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
    
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Somone say Baja!
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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desertcpl
Super Nomad
  
Posts: 2405
Registered: 10-26-2008
Location: yuma,az
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Baja
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comitan
Ultra Nomad
   
Posts: 4177
Registered: 3-27-2004
Location: La Paz
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Mood: mellow
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I'm with iflyfish.
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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David K
Honored Nomad
       
Posts: 65298
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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ME TOO!!
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comitan
Ultra Nomad
   
Posts: 4177
Registered: 3-27-2004
Location: La Paz
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Mood: mellow
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No, No, No. 
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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BajaNuts
Super Nomad
  
Posts: 1085
Registered: 5-11-2008
Location: eastern WA, the DRY side
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Mood: no worry, no hurry....it's all good!
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did I just hear an..........AGREEMENT?!?!??!?!? 
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
   
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
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Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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I firmly believe that once you leave party allegiance and political rhetoric behind, most reasonable folks tend to agree for the most part on a
majority of the issues. Common sense and common values will prevail (hopefully). This thread has only supported my theory in that regard.
Thanks Nomads...
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Bob H
Elite Nomad
    
Posts: 5867
Registered: 8-19-2003
Location: San Diego
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Quote: | Originally posted by BajaNuts
did I just hear an..........AGREEMENT?!?!??!?!? 
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I would have loved to know what JR would have said along this great thread! Great thread... keep it going.
Bob H
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djh
Senior Nomad
 
Posts: 936
Registered: 1-2-2005
Location: Earth mostly. Loreto, N. ID, Big Island
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Mood: Mellow fellow, plays a yellow cello...
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Yes, some good, healthy exchanges . . . Know Fear ? NO FEAR !
or as an old friend used to say: "Live in Love or Live in Fear"
Time to say goodnight ?
Good night, Johnboy,
Good night, Grampa.

PS.... Reward for missing avatar.... last seen with a bottle of Sauza in one hand and a roll of TP in the other....
[Edited on 3-11-2009 by djh]
Its all just stuff and some numbers.
A day spent sailing isn\'t deducted from one\'s life.
Peace, Love, and Music
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dianaji
Senior Nomad
 
Posts: 606
Registered: 8-12-2008
Location: San Marcos, CA
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Mood: hungry for knowledge, simplicity, hugs and fish tacos!
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http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2009/feb/05/no-headline-...
funny, but not funny!
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
   
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Iflyfish:
Do you know that a Mexicano Worker starts out here in Texas at a Min. of $12.50 and Hour, the same for a Muslim, Black , White , of yellow.
Do you know that Autoworkers,members of Unions make $40 to $70 Dollars and Hour?
Do you know the Awewome amoutn of small Business that are making or were making 100% profit on their business but were paying large amounts for their
employees health Insurance itc.
I worked my Butt off 17 hours a Day for 10 years, saved my money, invested in Real Estate, Cleaned up after Renters and ended up with a fairly good
retirement .
Why do you keep pushing and downing the Rich??. Do you not have the Intellitect or the Ability to go out and work , make money, save money and get a
little Rich yourself.
It it easy!! All you have to do is think, Act, Risk, and use your "God Given Brains".
I am beginning to think that you are one of those "Commies' or Socialise" that was raised /brainwashed to beleive that everyone is Equal-- It is not
True!
Why do you think that certain parts of a Culture never improve their Lot??
Look at Africa, India and the Chinese--Everyone of the Races and Nations are Different.
We cannot all be the same Level--How Dull would that Be??
Skeet
Barry: Independence is a great Place- Manson liked it well! I liked it well as I lived in Bishop for Three Years. Have a Cenntinell Coin from Inyo
county.
Want to buy it.??
Skeet
Remmember you guys "Do Fot Dear. Take life as an Adventure and Live! Live! Live!
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comitan
Ultra Nomad
   
Posts: 4177
Registered: 3-27-2004
Location: La Paz
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Mood: mellow
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It was nice while it lasted. 
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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Dave
Elite Nomad
    
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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Boring
Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
We cannot all be the same Level--How Dull would that Be??
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
   
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Skeet:
You wrote the following and I will introject my comments:
Iflyfish:
Do you know that a Mexicano Worker starts out here in Texas at a Min. of $12.50 and Hour, the same for a Muslim, Black , White , of yellow.
I am glad we have equal rights employment laws, which have been resisted by Conservatives for years.
Do you know that Autoworkers,members of Unions make $40 to $70 Dollars and Hour?
Good for them, I wish more workers wre able to make that sort of moiney. People died in the Labor Movement so that workers could make a decent, family
wage, living. The inequity between the wages earned by CEO's and Labor has widened exponentially over the past 20 years. The inequety is seen every
day whe we read of CEOs earning MILLIONS of dollars in BONUSES over and above their wages.
Do you know the Awewome amoutn of small Business that are making or were making 100% profit on their business but were paying large amounts for their
employees health Insurance itc.
I have advocated for a Single Payer Health Care system for forty years. How in the world did we get the profit motive mixed up with the provision of
medical care. The cost of the current system puts undo burden on business to provide what our government aught to provide as a right.
Our Declaration of Independance reads: "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their
Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.: Life includes health care.
I worked my Butt off 17 hours a Day for 10 years, saved my money, invested in Real Estate, Cleaned up after Renters and ended up with a fairly good
retirement .
Good for you. Me too. I have worked for everything that I have, just as you have. No silver spoon or coupons to clip just a lot of hard and rewarding
work. Near the end of my career I was making $125 per hour. As a Professional person that level of wage is considered reasonable.
Why do you keep pushing and downing the Rich??. Do you not have the Intellitect or the Ability to go out and work , make money, save money and get a
little Rich yourself.
I am rich. It is not the rich I am talking about, it's the upper/ruling class in this country, the top 10% who own 40% of the assets, it's the
multi-millionaires in Congress that I have a bone to pick with. I feel incredibly blessed with being born in a place and time where public education
was available to me at reasonable cost in the State of California in the mid 1960s/70s. The advent of the Reagan Administration and Conservative
Propositions cut school funding and gutted the Mental Health System where I was working.
It it easy!! All you have to do is think, Act, Risk, and use your "God Given Brains".
It helps to be white, intelligent, reasonably good looking, have access to education, have parents who nurtured me and peers who were on similar
tracks. We are not all born equal.
I am beginning to think that you are one of those "Commies' or Socialise" that was raised /brainwashed to beleive that everyone is Equal-- It is not
True!
I don't believe that everyone is equal. Some are born with inheritances that allow them to never work, or to fail and never really have to worry about
the consequences. Being born with extensive wealth allows one to be treated with incredible indulgence i.e. George Bush, Paris Hilton etc. being born
black in a ghetto does not provide for equal opportunity. These people feel entitled and often superior to others i.e. Dick Chaney "so what?"
Why do you think that certain parts of a Culture never improve their Lot??
Look at Africa, India and the Chinese--Everyone of the Races and Nations are Different.
Multiple causation, there is no simple answer to this question. One must also look at what is considered "improvement".
We cannot all be the same Level--How Dull would that Be??
We all will never be at the same level. That is an over simplification of what I have been saying. I have been describing a pendulum that swings
toward excess by the upper class i.e. pre French Revolution, "let them eat cake", or currently "so what", the Robber Barons, the assumption of
entitlement by the upper classes "we are superior because we are rich", Chinese Capitalists before the revolution, Russian Monarchy and excess before
the Revolution. This excess eventually leads to some form of social upheaval by the lower classes. We are very fortunate to have a country with
mechanisms in place to moderate this process. We have just experienced one of those revolutions in a peaceful way. The excesses of the ruling class
have become apparent enought o enough people that the trigger was pulled in the election booth and not in the streets. We are fortunate indeed. It
ain't that way in much of the rest of the world.
Skeet
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
   
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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comitan: "it was nice while it lasted"
Maybe it still is. Time will tell.
Iflyfish
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