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jerry
Super Nomad
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Registered: 10-10-2003
Location: loreto
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how about the mexicans
Has anyone thought about the effects of this project on the real mexicans in the loreto area?? has anyone asked them??
I hear that all developers are money grubbers welll i think that if it wasnt for devlopers we would all be living in caves
Most of us are a product of some kind of development and thats what affords us the oppertunity to be able to even spend time in loreto. What the
matter with the mexican people getting a break? Letting them benifit from development? Remember we are a guests in there country. Too many gringoes
sound like they think they should run it. If they had the chance it would be the same mess as we made in the states. The additude of I got mine now
screw you isnt native to the mexican people. I think they deserve there chance for progress hopefullly they wont learn too mutch from the gringoes Ill
bet that the mexican ppl will will benifet from this project in many ways
jerry and judi
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tim40
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Great questions Jerry, and yes I have asked many of them and encourage others to do the same. Unfortunately, there is good and bad in all from
Tequila to diamonds. One only has to look south of town in Loreto to see bad...and that is also from the locals point of view. Too often the
developers are hit and run in Mexico and the locals receive minimal to nothing in the longer term on a net level.
If you read some of my own responses from other strings, I have suggested the only real solution short of 'board venting' is to establish a corp or
holding company and do it ourselves or hold it in current condition. It will happen, it is not even a question of when anymore...
When searching for the end of your rainbow you only have until dusk....
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
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Location: Loreto, BCS
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Loreto Bay...what else?
In the beginning I was all for this project, for many reasons. Now I have some doubts that are coming from the gut.
The first negative gut feeling came in June while I was delivering fish to clients who were staying at the El Camino Real. The last sales meeting of
the season had just ended and I was able to walk around and see the mapped out plan. I immediately saw the kind of folks that will be owners of these
new homes. It smelled of money and I haven't had that sense of money smell since I lived in New England. I looked at the plan and in it I saw where
the homes will be going and where the commercial properties and storefronts will be. I own a successful business in Loreto but will I be able to
afford to rent or buy there if I want to? Probably not, and I wondered who would. Outsiders displacing even me, and outsider myself. I have to
admit its intimidating.
I met with the VP of destination marketing for LB, about their plans to start selling Loreto and the Loreto Bay "destination". This portion of their
website will be online just before the first of the year. Mind you, there is not one house constructed yet.
I correcdt myself, Oh yes there is! On their webiste are images of their model home....
.....located in Victoria, BC Canada!
One building has been started and its coming along very slowly, I'd say less than 20% complete.
Last week, I was invited as a local purveyor of sportfishing as they want to work with everyone in town. I agreed with a lot of what they told me and
really liked their ideas, but I couldn't help thinking...where are these houses anyway and when will they be put in?
As a travel agent I do not ever promote a product that I don't have "on hand". Most folks who book a trip will be coming within a year and want
confirmationis immediately.
-solamente mi viente centavos.
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elizabeth
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Location: Loreto, BCS
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I've asked too...and what I have been told is that the developers were importing labor from the mainland because they weren't paying wages that Loreto
locals can afford to work for. Don't know whether this is true or not...but that is the perception of some local people. There are also local
people, even some that work in the tourist industry that are worried about environmental destruction. This is not a Mexican corporation keeping the
money in the country...and developments do not always benefit local residents.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
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Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mainlanders!
| Quote: | Originally posted by elizabeth
...and what I have been told is that the developers were importing labor from the mainland because they weren't paying wages that Loreto locals can
afford to work for. Don't know whether this is true or not...but that is the perception of some local people. |
this is something FONATUR has always done. for a recent example, El Camino Real was started in 1999 and we watched as the construction slowly got
accomplished. mainland workers have a work ethic that far surpasses most loretanos and that's a fact. they are mostly men of working age that live
together in shanty rooming quarters. they're busses to and from the site as by law. the locals here will not work for that kind of lousy loot and in
those conditions...sounds familiar?, wow
| Quote: |
There are also local people, even some that work in the tourist industry that are worried about environmental destruction. ....
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the local people are old fashioned and intimidated by the own shadow in the wake of competition (and this is how they see LB). they have not taken
the time to educate themselves or their children and cannot keep with the times as a result.
mainlanders in Loreto are a good thing. the Loretano blood needs some mixing of chromosomes and ideas. my husband is from the mainland, worked
construction for FONATUR 20 years ago. helped build CSL and is now in Loreto raising a new generation of six Mu?ozes that will not follow the local
cycle.
Now I wonder what kind of DNA Loreto Bay will bring in?
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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Some of this seems familiar...similar to northwest Montana, where I have lived for over 30 years. Waves of monied outsiders, paying high prices for
fancy homes beyond the reach of many of the locals. Housing, land, construction prices soar. Access to fishing and waterfront is lost.
Locally owned businesses are withering away. You see the guy that sold you you first fridge from his family's store years ago selling appliances at
Home Depot.
Seems to me the potential customers of Loreto Bay are so insistent of being insulated from Mexico and Mexicans that they are paying a huge premium in
land and construction costs. It is so inefficient, making a real estate deal that includes supporting sales offices in 4 cities, all those white
pickups driving around town...
Then again, I may be as much of a problem, buying a place right in town. Maybe the Americans and Canadians are better put in their own enclaves out of
town. 
Our Loreto neighbors are so cool, though. Bet Loreto Bay can't match that. ("wait until you meet the neighbors")
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TMW
Select Nomad
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From an AZ paper.
Valley developer creating Baja seaside resort
Loreto Bay Co.
What: Real estate firm that is developing a mixed-used village project in Loreto Bay, Mexico.
Headquarters: Scottsdale.
Employees: 75.
President and CEO: Jim Grogan.
Craig Harris
The Arizona Republic
Sept. 14, 2004 12:00 AM
Please forgive Jim Grogan if he becomes a bit giddy about his latest real estate project.
Selling homes in a place that he describes as a paradise can do that to a guy.
The Valley attorney, developer and former chairman of the Arizona Sports and Tourism Authority is now running the Loreto Bay Co., which is developing
a $3 billion mixed-use project along the Mexican seaside in the Baja California Sur.
Scheduled for completion in 15 years, the plan calls for 5,000 homes, resort hotels, a golf club, beach spas and retail businesses near the Sea of
Cortez. About 5,000 acres of the 8,000-acre project will be reserved for greenspace.
"What's most appealing is the spectacular, natural beauty of the area," Grogan said. "The people of Baja call it the place where the mountains come to
swim."
Grogan's Scottsdale-based company, which was formed about 18 months ago, began selling homes in Loreto Bay, Mexico, in November 2003. Since then,
buyers from the United States, Canada and Mexico have bought 150 homes, he said.
"Our buyers are the greatest sales force," Grogan said.
Grogan said most of the buyers are baby boomers looking for resort-style living, and homes, which range from 1,200 to 3,000 square feet, cost between
$200,000 and $1 million.
Grogan said buyers hear about the project through word of mouth and some advertising. His company also has offices in Mexico City, San Diego and
Victoria, British Columbia.
Once a month, the Loreto Bay Co. flies in clients, who pay their own way for transportation and lodging, for a weekend sale. But before boarding a
plane, a customer must put $5,000 into an escrow account.
"I joke that it's our way of at least having them fake that they are interested," Grogan said.
Grogan also said there are about 65 investors in the project, including 25 from metro Phoenix. He said the equity investors have put up to $200,000
each in the project.
He added that another thing that has made the project appealing to buyers is that the Mexican government has thrown its support behind Loreto Bay and
other Mexican developments that promote tourism.
FONATUR, Mexico's tourism authority, has spent about $200 million on infrastructure, including an international airport. And Grogan said last week
that he attended a business leaders breakfast with Mexican President Vicente Fox, who also has supported the project.
"His message was that Mexico is open for business," Grogan said.
Reach the reporter at craig.harris@arizonarepublic.com or (602) 444-8995.
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3870
Registered: 2-9-2004
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Contrary to popular belief (!) I have nothing against development - it's the destruction of pristine, unique, ecologically sensitive regions that I
oppose. Why can't the Loreto Bay development be constructed in Loreto, and leave the Bay alone as an amenity of the town? The Civano project was
built for people who WORK and LIVE full time in the development. There's not that much going for its "sustainability" other than some solar hot water
heaters, home-based solar power generation, and a neighborhood nursery that the residents take care of, and they use reclaimed water for landscaping.
That project also had the support of the City of Tucson, Fannie Mae and the State of Arizona to make it happen. The objectives of the Civano project
differ from Loreto Bay entirely. The Civano objectives, which essentially been been unmet, are: stores within walking distance, an auto-competitive
transit service providing service to the entire urban area, a mix of housing prices, including low cost housing, 7 units per acre minimum, does not
contribute to suburbanization, provides a balance of jobs and residences reduces necessity to commute by automobile, and "market oriented
development", i.e., no subsidies or tax breaks. In contrast, Loreto Bay is being built as a "destination" for 2nd home owners and vacationers.
Therefore, any ostensible successes of Civano could hardly be a basis for presuming any success in Baja California. The Bamberton project was
another project of David Butterfield's - the President of the Trust for Sustainable Development - who also planned Civano. Bamberton was also planned
to create a strong "sense of place", houses built within walking distance of a village centre; houses built close up to encourage conversation,
pedestrian-friendly, narrow streets, back lanes for car access, town center on the waterfront for cultural and business activities. "It was being
designed to engender human community, a sense of belonging, and a positive vision of the future; to embody ecological sustainability, community
values, traditional village-style neighborhoods and its own local economy." (SOUND FAMILIAR?). They took out their rubber stamp and created the
Loreto Bay development. However, due to political and financial difficulties, the Bamberton project was SCRAPPED ENTIRELY. It was criticized by a
body of AIA architects as having too much paving, units lack orientation to a view due to its flatness, lack of on-site community members in later
stages of the project for planning participation, a questionable sewage treatment system, no source-separation recyling, inappropriate architectural
styles ("any attempt to recreate 'tradition' creates a false facade"), the "open space" was virtually unusable, and any usable was otherwise
developed, the energy performance projections fell short of what should be sought and expected. The report went on to state: "What's missing: A major
element of sustainability which seems to be missing from most projects is the spiritual dimensions of our surroundings. ost of our worst social ills,
as well as the misapplication of our technologies, are 'diseases of the spirit' arising out of lack of self esteem, mutual respect, and being of value
to family and community. The resolving of these 'diseases of the spirit' is a key dimensin of sustainability, and has significant impacts on physical
planning and architecture as well as the cultural dimension of the community." Another element not reviewed by the developers of Bamberton was the
economic development aspect of the project - how the project will support or compete with the existing economic base, use local resources, small
businesses, etc. I can't see that the Loreto Bay project has considered, refined or resolved any of the criteria by which the Bamberton project
failed. The project isn't about what's good for Mexicans in Mexico - it's all about the profit margin of the developers at the expense of what Loreto
and its people stand for.
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capn.sharky
Senior Nomad
Posts: 686
Registered: 9-4-2003
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Loreto Bay?
I have heard of Loreto and Nopolo and Puerto Escondido, but until these Cannuks came, I never heard of Loreto Bay. However, I have an idea. Since
the Canadians have to park away from there so-called Mexican home, and since they will be going home to Canada and leaving their vehicles behind, what
an opportunity for the car thieves in Tijuana and Ensenada and wherever else. They wouldn't even know their Rolls Royce or 60 Foot Motorhome was
missing until they return. Now, I am not promoting this idea---just mentioning it as a great opportunity for the Baja Californians to earn some extra
money. I mean if they won't even use local labor for the construction, and they won't (probably) be coming to town for anything (too many Mexicans in
Town for the Cannucks) this would be a way to get some money into the local economy. By the way, is there a Mulege Bay? Anyone for a little high
tea?
If there is no fishing in heaven, I am not going
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Steve in Oro Valley
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Posts: 105
Registered: 11-14-2002
Location: Near Tucson
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$5000 escrow just to visit??
I just looked at the Loretobay.com website and read the above Arizona Republic Interview.
Loreto Bay will not be like any "Mexican village" that I know. 5000 homes planned; $200,000 to $1,000,00 resort style homes, to attract baby boomers
who want a spa "destination" experience. What about lower cost housing for those who want a special Loreto experience?
This sounds like Tucson's Canyon Resort (fat farm) only in a Loreto B.C.S. location.
I am suddenly OPPOSED to the concept based on the Arizona Republic interview of Mr. Grogan. He seems to have a different face when adddressing the
potential market in a U. S. newspaper. The Loretobay.com website has a "sustain the environment" face
It is also true Civano in Tucson has not met the objectives envisioned in the beginning. But at least the planners now have a better appreciation of
the obstacles entailed in such a self sustaining project.
The local Loretanos need to be a part of the project ie. construction, services, shops, taco stands, etc.
Sewage and garbage disposal will still be a problem. Be sure you get the Hepatitis series shots before snorkeling!
Don't the developers know that golf is a declining pastime, wastes resources, frustrates the psyche, and is not a good physical activity from a health
standpoint?
Loreto is a special kind of place and one could play golf elsewhere.
Steve in Oro Valley
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
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Tell that to the Canadians who come here
| Quote: | Originally posted by Steve in Oro Valley
Don't the developers know that golf is a declining pastime, wastes resources, frustrates the psyche, and is not a good physical activity from a health
standpoint?
Loreto is a special kind of place and one could play golf elsewhere.
Steve in Oro Valley |
about five years ago, I invited and arranged for Ann Hazard to present her books "Cooking with Baja Magic" and newly released at the time "Cartwheels
in the Sand" to the (then) Eden Resort. This was peak travel season and the hotel was full.
I asker her that evening how it went and she told me that only 2 folks showed up. "Those Canadians were so busy playing 20 rounds of golf that they
weren't even interested in what she had to say"
some folks come here for different things.
I do agree we don't need another golf course as the one we have isn't used often.
[Edited on 9-15-2004 by flyfishinPam]
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Hook
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The realities of "affordable housing"
With the cost of housing escalating astronomically in areas of high demand, one has to wonder why the marketplace hasn't responded with affordable
housing. Here in California, most all attempts at creating affordable housing are quashed by voters who worry about the effects of these enclaves on
their own property values.
I think projects like Loreto Bay and others actually ARE affordable housing........but not for the locals of Loreto. Many of them will be bought by
individuals in these high demand US communities who are looking for affordable housing in their retirement. Or by Canadians escaping adverse
climates, who can see themselves simply trading their Canadians homes for one in Loreto in their retirement.
The realities of affordable housing for many of us is to move somewhere affordable, 'cause it's sure not being built where we live.
As ever, the marketplace will dictate what happens, assuming that all the infrastructure questions are met. As many have pointed out, that remains to
be seen in Loreto.
Once upon a time, a Gabrieleno Indian in LA looked around and wondered where all these Mexicans with money came from.
Once upon a time, a Mexican in LA looked around and wondered where all these Americans with money came from.
Once upon a time, Americans in LA looked around and wonder where all these Asians and Europeans with money came from.
Once upon a time we all became Americans, looked around and realized, "Hell, I cant afford to retire here."
This type of change is inevitable because there is a market for living, inexpensively, in nice places. As long as housing costs are astronomical in
other places, there will be development pressure on cheaper places that are nice. The burgeoning glut of baby boomers is driving this.
Then there's the history of questionable practices by the Mexican government, with respect to development regulation. A matador comes to mind......
What you gonna do?
In the absence of infrastructure restraints, this project is inevitable, IMO.
Can you honestly blame the people that are considering buying into the LB project? I'm willing to bet these are not rich people, if you exclude the
wildly inflated values of their stateside/Canadian homes. They are some of the same people that come to Loreto to vacation and spend modest sums on
fishing, hotels, etc.
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capt. mike
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well stated Hook. as i have been saying
all along, this has nothing to do with emotion, it's a market driven function. the market will decide unemotionally success or failure. Naysayers will
always find their reasons to b-tch pee and bemoan something they don't like and they feel others shouldn't have. If Grogan and co. can do it and it
succeeds, hell - why not? we are in a global economy, like it or not. Ethnocentrism has no longer a place in value judgements.
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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backninedan
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Capt Mike.
Then your saying that if money can make anything happen its ok??
What a crock!!
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synch
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Not all are on pension
Capt Mike has a point, but in order to afford any housing, people must have an income. Where will that income come from?
If you are thinking that Americans on retirement will be buying these, then I would point out that the retirement of Baby-boomers is having a cycle
that is peaking and the downslide will show a regression. Will housing drop when there are fewer buyers or will it be returned to the banks by
repossession and takeovers?
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Hook
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Back nine Dan
Well, "OK" is a rather vague term. "OK" to whom? Define the state of being "OK"? My gut feeling is that this project is probably "OK" for the majority
of the locals in the Loreto area, at least the ones that will need the income.
I think what Mike and I are saying is that, irrespective of the value judgement of this being "OK" or not, it is likely inevitable IF the marketplace
is allowed to make the decision.
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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Is development in Nopolo really market driven? Should we consider that many of the amenities-golf course, tennis club, streets, airport-were a result
of political decisions and political/government money?
Also, the local real estate market offers bigger lots, bigger houses for less money than Loreto Bay. Seems to me that a part of Loreto Bay's market
value to its customers is its own version of ethnocentrism. Their customers will pay premium prices for alternatives to dealing with and living with
local Mexicans.
Free markets have proven benefits. But unrestricted free markets can have unintended and/or adverse impacts on society and the environment.
Just mho. And consider that I am temporarily stuck in a cold, rainy Montana, bored, wishing I were trying out some new jigs down there...so I have the
time to babble on this free marketplace of talk and ideas...
Don
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capt. mike
Elite Nomad
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Dan (do you ever play the front 9?)
no - money doesn't make it happen or make it alright. I am saying DEMAND vs. SUPPLY will decide on what happens.....market forces pure and simple.
some money might get it started, but if no demand it will fail as it should. But if allowed those with the capital and PERMISSION to try it should
take whatever risk they deem appropriate.
Biz has to be allowed to happen.
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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backninedan
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Capt.Mike
Since moving to Loreto, I dont even play the backnine anymore, the course here is expensive and in poor shape.
The best round I had there was when I was able to watch the staff chasing cattle off the course with golf carts.
I think i snapped a bit at you, the Loreto Bay thing puts my knickers in a bunch. After seeing it and having friends go to the selling spiel, I
can't help but smell rip off, but you have it right, Im not the one buying, and if others do, it will happen, no matter how I feel.
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jerry
Super Nomad
Posts: 1354
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no long term benafits to the mexicans??
What about the bars the restarants the shops taco stands stores in loreto plumbers electrections to mention a few after its build that are needed
to maintain it
Tell me how long does it take to see all the shops eat at all the restrants and see all the sites in a city the size of loreto bay??
Hell gringos allways go to a bigger place to shop as an example if you live in a city of 20,000 you go to a city of 100,000 then on to a million
Its only nateral that emotions will run wild on what might happen but seldom are they warrented
But emotions are not whate runs the world
supply and demand does
yes BUCKS
And im all for the mexican to get thier hands on all they can the spilling over of people into loreto can do nothing but benafit loreto at least
the mexicans in loreto Jerry
jerry and judi
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