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tripledigitken
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by arrowhead
Kindly do me a favor, and never apologize to a Mexican for the United States again. Mexico is already full of America-hating Americans.
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I whole-heartedly second that. |
I second your second.
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Gypsy Jan
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Mood: Depends on which way the wind is blowing
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Alzheimer's Prevention
Learning anything new, but especially another language (code switching), is highly recommended as a good exercise to prevent the synapses from from
rusting out in our older brains.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness.”
—Mark Twain
\"La vida es dura, el corazon es puro, y cantamos hasta la madrugada.” (Life is hard, the heart is pure and we sing until dawn.)
—Kirsty MacColl, Mambo de la Luna
\"Alea iacta est.\"
—Julius Caesar
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Bajahowodd
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| Quote: | Originally posted by soulpatch
It is generally in our school system that when kids have the most ability for language acquisition we don't take advantage of it. We wait until they
are older and their minds are wired a little more permanently so it is not a more natural process.
It is just more backwards thinking about the priorities in traditional education.
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You are quite right. In Europe, somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 of the citizens have a basic ability in English. Not to mention that with all the
various languages around, there is a high percentage of multi-lingual people. They teach language in the primary grades, when it is so much easier to
assimilate the information.The US has been very insular, including the fact that they don't travel to foreign countries that much. Case in point. The
last president. If I recall correctly, he had virtually traveled nowhere abroad at the time he was elected. And he came from a wealthy family.
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Wingnut
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Language learning for the USA has always been on a need basis. Most of the USA stays at home in their comfort zones and never ventures forth. How the
heck we settled that country is amazing. Used to be that Americans traveled where the will or want tugged at them. Now most stay home and complain
about the immigration problems.
I find that the more you socialize with the population where you are, the greater the rewards are in getting to know and understand life as they see
it. It requires an open and non-judgemental mind to see life from different angles. As I learn to speak more and more "Spanish" the better I am at
understanding people. I too suffered from the American educational system and had an advantage some do not. I grew up with Spanish speaking people,
took Spanish in High School and then entered the job market where language skills were not needed. I lost a lot of what little Spanish I spoke and
have been re-learning it all over again. I find that the more you learn, the less you know. But I keep trying and those Spanish speaking people I
interact with are happy to help. They appreciate the fact that I am learning to communicate with them in their native tongue. So I help them with
their English and it works out well for both of us. I suspect that if more people took this approach, we would not have to listen to more Ugly
American stories.
Viva la lingua!
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Barry A.
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Some like to travel to foreign Countries, and some don't. My wife and I tried it for several years and found that we felt more rewarded traveling in
our own Country, and it's immediate neighbors, and it is sooooooo much less expensive to do so.
I actually had a better opinion of other Countries before I travelled to them, than after, in most cases---------China and Italy being the exceptions.
All Countries have their plus'es and minus'es, but bottom line is I like OUR Country best---so much to see right here!!! Possibly Bush felt the same
way.
Barry
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Bajahowodd
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Barry- I agree with some of your points. I could make a list of countries I like and those which did not seem worthwhile spending time there. However,
in addressing the original premise of this thread, if our kids were more or less required to become proficient in foreign language starting in
elementary school, at the age when experts say it is the easiest to master language, is it not just possible that with foreign language skills, there
would be more people interested in visiting the countries in which those languages are spoken?
Methinks you give Bush too much credit. Many have branded him with being incurious.
That said, with the ever greater economic globalization of world markets, we need to really think about how we are going to participate in a world
that will eventually have many powerful players that we will not be able to ignore. Just because we have the greatest military power, isn't going to
cut it.
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rts551
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Barry
Whats your point here. Most people in other countries feel the same patriotism you do. Doesn't stop them from learning though.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Some like to travel to foreign Countries, and some don't. My wife and I tried it for several years and found that we felt more rewarded traveling in
our own Country, and it's immediate neighbors, and it is sooooooo much less expensive to do so.
I actually had a better opinion of other Countries before I travelled to them, than after, in most cases---------China and Italy being the exceptions.
All Countries have their plus'es and minus'es, but bottom line is I like OUR Country best---so much to see right here!!! Possibly Bush felt the same
way.
Barry |
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vacaenbaja
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When taking a begining French class our teacher layed out the rules. (1)Under no circumstances are you to use a dictionary of any kind. This means
that you cannot use any word not learned in class. (2) Under no circumstances will English be spoken during class time. (3) These will be your most
often used phrases " What is this called" " How do you say"
etc. She believed in THINKING IN FRENCH not thinking in English and then trying to find a French equivalent. I suppose that this could work for
Spanish as well... if we were not so busy trying to translate our thoughts.
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Dave
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'Their own kind'
| Quote: | Originally posted by monoloco
I think that the reason that most Americans aren't more fluent in Spanish is because they tend to cluster with their own kind and avoid
unnecessary contact with the locals. It is unfortunate. |
Name a culture that doesn't. Americans aren't unique in their desire to associate with their 'own kind'. For some the avoidance is based on fear. For
most it's simply comfort and convenience.
It is the rare individual who chooses otherwise.
Simply put, Americans living here don't learn Spanish unless their survival depends on it. The same can be said for all other cultures dispersed
throughout the world.
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Cyanide41
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surebought... Why can't mexicans learn English? I will agree that people who move to a foreign country should make an attempt to learn the local
language, but don't say that this problem is one sided. The US is MUCH more catering to Spanish speakers than Mexico is to English speakers. Don't
imply that all Mexicans can speak (some) English. The reason my spanish is what it is, is because Mexicans who CAN NOT speak English. And most of the
Mexicans I know live in TJ. I expected almost all Tijuanese to have at least some English, but found that it's not always the case.
| Quote: | Originally posted by monoloco
I think that the reason that most Americans aren't more fluent in Spanish is because they tend to cluster with their own kind and avoid unnecessary
contact with the locals. It is unfortunate. |
That happens everywhere. Why do you think there is such a large Irish population in Boston? I used to date a Korean (1st gen American) girl who's
mother had been here 25 years or so and still struggled with English. Most of her mom's friend's were Korean. She shopped at the Korean market. So you
can't say that American's are the only ones who "stick to their own". In all such cases it is unfortunate.
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oldlady
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Is that a non sequitur or a complete mental collapse?
[Edited on 12-15-2009 by oldlady]
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Santiago
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E.T. I'm with you on that one. I suppose this accounts for the .1%
Does essence predate existence?
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Barry- I agree with some of your points. I could make a list of countries I like and those which did not seem worthwhile spending time there. However,
in addressing the original premise of this thread, if our kids were more or less required to become proficient in foreign language starting in
elementary school, at the age when experts say it is the easiest to master language, is it not just possible that with foreign language skills, there
would be more people interested in visiting the countries in which those languages are spoken?
Methinks you give Bush too much credit. Many have branded him with being incurious.
That said, with the ever greater economic globalization of world markets, we need to really think about how we are going to participate in a world
that will eventually have many powerful players that we will not be able to ignore. Just because we have the greatest military power, isn't going to
cut it. |
Agree completely, except the "Bush" reference and it's inference. Some are more "curious" than others, and I don't fault them either way.
Contentment with life explains part of it.
As for my "point", I don't necessarily have to go to other Countries to appreciate them, and that probably applies to Bush, also------in fact my
investments are about 55% overseas, at this time, and I sure appreciate the profits that gives me, being a good capitolist. I want (almost) all
Countries to "succeed" economically, for obvious reasons.
I will admit that my main thrust in my original post was to counter the negative inference about Bush--------his lack of "curiosity" does not bother
me-------in fact by all measures that I have seen Bush is a very happy, competant and contented man, and I deeply respect him, mostly for his
character. Others disagree, and that is fine, but I like both sides to be posted just so ideas and opinions are not just left hanging out there that
many don't agree with.
I agree that most do not take the time to learn another language if they feel it is not "worth it". Given incentive, most would learn.
I especially support the concept of teaching languages at a VERY young age-------and Europe in general, and other Countries, beat us hands down at
that. We need to wise up.
Barry
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oldlady
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Appropriate thread on the anniversary of Zamenhof's birth.
Zamenhof...Esperanto.....Google (for the younger crowd).
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oldlady
Appropriate thread on the anniversary of Zamenhof's birth.
Zamenhof...Esperanto.....Google (for the younger crowd). |
Wow, Impressive!!! I am not "younger", but I must confess I had never heard of him, or his language. That probably puts me in the so-called "Bush
league". 
Thanks Old Lady for the Google lead. 
Barry
[Edited on 12-15-2009 by Barry A.]
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Sharksbaja
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Spelling er, Spanglish Police
synical, empresarial, serously, embarasing
Yes your English and your Spanish skills do need help! Do you realize how silly you look in regards to your post?
hint: Spellcheck
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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ELINVESTIG8R
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oldlady
Appropriate thread on the anniversary of Zamenhof's birth.
Zamenhof...Esperanto.....Google (for the younger crowd). |
OldLady Who is he? Is he a friend of yours?
Now I’m just embarrassed! I should have Googled first.
Sorry!
[Edited on 12-15-2009 by ELINVESTI8]
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gnukid
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Registered: 7-2-2006
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I was at the beach in Barriles yesterday with friends and a woman pulled up to go kitesurfing, she asked "where ya'll from?"
"La paz" I answered.
She looked at us cross-eyed, who are mostly blond, and said "where?"
I said "la paz, it's the next big town up the road. Y'all should visit sometime."
She snapped back angrily, "I know where la paz is, I have lived here for 18 years but I don't speak spanish and I am not going to la paz!" - typical
ignorant arrogant North American.
Similarly, with my Mexican friends from various parts of the country, in every pueblo in Baja we visit, when we arrive, the locals always give a blank
look when asked for something by other Mexicans-"donde estan las ballenas? "que?", as in total lack of understanding. My friends from Mexico City can
not order a glass of milk in many of Baja's pueblos. The locals can not understand most other regional speakers. Many people become frustrated as
they speak spanish so why don't other mexican spanish speakers understand?
I try hard to adjust to local dialects having learned in pueblos, loud clubs and in school both here in baja and in the USA-I listen and watch the
speakers mouth and make similar movements and sounds, sometimes I use the marble mouth technique - to be better understood which works wonders.
Regional speakers use systematic differences in language in order to define, differentiate and discriminate social groups which would explain why some
people refuse to learn Spanish or English or if they do they have unique phrasing and pronunciation. Me puches pues, y'all -which means "the thorns
got me", y'all in Salvadorian but in Paceno I am still uncertain what it means but I gather it means, "well, they are bugging me."
I try to listen and repeat back the phrases and nuances using mirroring making similar mouth shape, body position and similar intonation, rhythm -
regardless of whether I understand at first, like teenage dating. Some people speak in a slow stuccoto manner, while others use a sing song method,
some (Cubanos) use 64th and 128th note syllables and others (Rancheros) 1/4 note syllables.
When I do mirroring right, often this results in near shock as family members think since I speak their exact language, they assume I must be a long
lost related family member resulting in a familiar conversation. Only when I ask a particularly unique question, usually of critical importance do
they reply, "que? no entiende?"
I do understand why people get a bit tired of this dialectical game but I also think it is funny, I realize it is possible that each of us have a
narrow window defined of our local dialect for our own affirmation and sense of community and many have little experience otherwise.
For me is it is rewarding and well worth the effort to try to understand what people are saying and make adjustments for their particular nuances.
Most often, after learning to speak spanish better and more flexibly, I have found when I thought someone was laughing at me they were not, they were
being nice. Without the effort to learn spanish you are missing out on lots of "understanding," lots of friends and many terrific jokes. Besides there
are probably only 100 words you need to know to break the language barrier.
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monoloco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by monoloco
I think that the reason that most Americans aren't more fluent in Spanish is because they tend to cluster with their own kind and avoid unnecessary
contact with the locals. It is unfortunate. |
Very true.
Another reason might be that it's much more difficult for older folks, most of the expats here, to sponge up a new language as the youngsters can and
do. We don't change as readily as we did fifty years ago. |
I read somewhere of a study of language
acquisition in children and adults, in the children the language centers were dispersed throughout the brain but in the adults they were centered in
one area.
[Edited on 12-15-2009 by monoloco]
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MrBillM
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Youthful Missed Opportunities
I probably "would" have learned Spanish better in my youth since I spent every opportunity in Baja (well, Tijuana), BUT the girls at the Blue Fox and
elsewhere communicated well in English. At least, well enough. Only so many words were necessary.
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