| Pages:
1
2
3
..
6 |
Gypsy Jan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4275
Registered: 1-27-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Depends on which way the wind is blowing
|
|
Cross-Cultural Confusion
Here I go, dipping my toe into provoking comments on the differences between the gabachos and the people of the established culture, but I have
encountered a puzzling kind of endemic racism.
First Example: We took our attorney, a very nice, well-dressed and well-spoken Mexican to a well-known, upscale Tijuana restaurant for lunch.
We had visited enough to be recognized on sight. During the course of our ordering, the wait person was rude, dismissive and almost openly hostile
towards our guest.
We received perfect service, but all her requests were ignored/messed up.
Second example: Recently we took our guy that is saving our yard to lunch to a local place where we eat once a week. Our order was executed
perfectly, but he didn't get what he ordered and when he asked them privately, they told him that if he didn't like it, he could go somewhere else.
I am officially confused. Did we offend by us gabachos taking our local friends out in a public forum?
Or is there something else that I am missing?
[Edited on 5-1-2010 by Gypsy Jan]
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness.”
—Mark Twain
\"La vida es dura, el corazon es puro, y cantamos hasta la madrugada.” (Life is hard, the heart is pure and we sing until dawn.)
—Kirsty MacColl, Mambo de la Luna
\"Alea iacta est.\"
—Julius Caesar
|
|
|
woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15939
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Everchangin'
|
|
see arizona vs. mexico.....
inherent ignorance makes for perfectly ambiguous realities........
|
|
|
JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
Here I go, dipping my toe into provoking comments on the differences between the gabachos and the people of the established culture, but I have
encountered a puzzling kind of endemic racism.
First Example: We took our attorney, a very nice, well-dressed and well-spoken Mexican to a well-known, upscale Tijuana restaurant for lunch.
We had visited enough to be recognized on sight. During the course of our ordering, the wait person was rude, dismissive and almost openly hostile
towards our guest.
We received perfect service, but all her requests were ignored/messed up.
Second example: Recently we took our guy that is saving our yard to lunch to a local place where we eat once a week. Our order was executed
perfectly, but he didn't get what he ordered and when he asked them privately, they told him that if he didn't like it, he could go somewhere else.
I am officially confused. Did we offend by us gabachos taking our local friends out in a public forum?
Or is there something else that I am missing?
[Edited on 5-1-2010 by Gypsy Jan] |
A lot of Mexicans turn into jerks when in the company of americans, they seem to want to impress them by being rude to the wait staff, and thus, the
reaction from the waiters.
|
|
|
jak
Banned
Posts: 114
Registered: 3-10-2010
Member Is Offline
|
|
Why do you call yourself a Gabacho? If you are not being crude or rude it doesn't seem appropriate.
|
|
|
mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 19934
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
Second example: Recently we took our guy that is saving our yard to lunch to a local place where we eat once a week. Our order was executed
perfectly, but he didn't get what he ordered and when he asked them privately, they told him that if he didn't like it, he could go somewhere else.
|
you should have refused to pay for any of the meals and complained immediately. that kind of behaviour from a restaurant is grounds for refusing to
pay for the meal. i would have walked out immediately. this is especially disconcerting if it happened in a restaurant that knows you. go to mgt
and complain, and get apology from management and waiter before you ever eat their again, and even then i would probably not revisit...
|
|
|
Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
Member Is Offline
|
|
Jan, in some circles Mexicans who show themselves in a posture where they are playing to the gringos for gain, those who show, in every way they can,
affinity, friendship, commonality are sometimes said to be "Muy Barbero", posers, flatterers.
|
|
|
Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
Member Is Offline
|
|
Contrary to the cabro's opinion, you sound like a discerning person. There is obviously some confusion about exactly what went on and it was not a
clear cut situation by any means. What might work better would be to talk in private with the people at the restaurant and find out what their take
on the situation was. Communication happens on so many levels that we never really know what has taken place. It could be that his cousin had made
an inappropriate pass at their neice or whatever stupid reason you can think of, but a little gentle questioning might just give you some very
valuable insight into what was really going on.
Shari has provided some wonderful inights in to the Baja Mexican culture because she lives in the middle of it and she relates the understanding to
an onion which means that every time you peel a layer off, there is another one under it. So, I suspect that there are some very interesting layers
here that might just prove very insightful.
|
|
|
Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
|
|
Tipping...
Is NOT a city in China. 
|
|
|
Gypsy Jan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4275
Registered: 1-27-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Depends on which way the wind is blowing
|
|
Jak, My Use of Gabacho
Was just an attempt at self-deprecating humor.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness.”
—Mark Twain
\"La vida es dura, el corazon es puro, y cantamos hasta la madrugada.” (Life is hard, the heart is pure and we sing until dawn.)
—Kirsty MacColl, Mambo de la Luna
\"Alea iacta est.\"
—Julius Caesar
|
|
|
DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
|
|
Boycott the racist restaurants. Their profiling is intolerable. 
|
|
|
Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Since Mexico is a pigmentocracy, like most other countries in the world, including the USofA, I wonder what color the skin of your guests.
There are many forms of prejudice and this is one of the most pernicious and prevalent.
There are also regional prejudices that one finds including but not limited to rural vs. urban, East vs. West, North vs. South, Mexico City vs. the
rest of Mexico, educated vs. unschooled, beautiful vs. ugly, homosexual vs. heterosexual, tall vs. short, rich vs. poor believers vs. true believers
vs. nonbelievers (fill in the blanks on that one) and on it goes.
Essentially anyone who is different from us, have you seen the most recent People of Walmart emails, is a target for our vitriol. Ethnocentricity and
xenophobia are our best friends especially in bad economic times. Of course this discussion has nothing to do with Arizona.
I vividly recall an experience in the 1950s of my father and uncle being laughed out of a restaurant in Montana; they were dressed in plaid Bermuda
shorts, all the rave at that time in our home state of California.
I have noticed that when I have had the occasion to be in Mexico in a suit that people will correct my “frontera” Spanish unprompted and sometimes
very rudely. I NEVER have this problem when I am dressed casually.
I sometimes wonder why many equate a Southern accent with ignorance?
Just some thoughts on what you observed, all possibilities to rule out in situations like you mentioned.
There is also the possibility of randomness as your N (2) sample is very small.
Iflyfishbetweenscratchesofmyhead
|
|
|
Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
On further reading, Osprey may have it right. Condescension is sometimes non verbally communicated as are the gestures and behaviors demonstrative of
social superiority.
I have been a dapper dresser in my day and once met a cousin of George Bush, an exemplar of the upper class, in which they were raised. The first
thing she said to me was a comment on my shoes, which were knock offs of a very expensive Italian variety.
Iflyfishindirtywadersihavetomyembarassmentaccidentlypi**edin
[Edited on 5-3-2010 by BajaNomad]
|
|
|
Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8088
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
|
|
Being told to 'shove it' after you compalin about your food in a Mexican restaurant is not unusual and happens to everyone. In fact it happens
throughout the third world to everyone. The idea that a restaurant will prepare a second meal for you if you don't like the first is expected here in
the US so we expect it elsewhere and are shocked when it doesn't happen. We shouldn't be.
Regarding cultural differences - there must be many stories travelers have. Here is mine. I boarded a bus in Yugoslavia wearing sandals over
sock-covered feet. Sitting in my seat I could hear their conversation over my attire. "Look at what that crazy American is wearing. Have you ever seen
such a thing?". And on and on it went. When I was nearing my stop I turned to them and asked them in fluent SerboCroatian if this was the right place
to get off. Their mouths just dropped as they stammered out an answer. I still get a kick out of that memory.
On the flip sign of that experience I discovered that women didn't shave their legs in Europe on that trip. Have you ever seen a woman with hairy
legs? It wasn't something I soon forgot. But I heard no giggles from those around her.
|
|
|
mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 19934
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
Contrary to the cabro's opinion, you sound like a discerning person. There is obviously some confusion about exactly what went on and it was not a
clear cut situation by any means. What might work better would be to talk in private with the people at the restaurant and find out what their take
on the situation was. Communication happens on so many levels that we never really know what has taken place. It could be that his cousin had made
an inappropriate pass at their neice or whatever stupid reason you can think of, but a little gentle questioning might just give you some very
valuable insight into what was really going on.
Shari has provided some wonderful inights in to the Baja Mexican culture because she lives in the middle of it and she relates the understanding to
an onion which means that every time you peel a layer off, there is another one under it. So, I suspect that there are some very interesting layers
here that might just prove very insightful. |
there is no excuse for bad behaviour -- local yocalism is not an excuse. if someone disses you, then speak your mind, or forever be trod upon. if
you don't speak your mind, then....
|
|
|
BAJA.DESERT.RAT
Senior Nomad
Posts: 980
Registered: 11-5-2009
Location: BAJA SUR
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hola, i hope this is inline with the thread. in los barriles, myself and three friends went to los barralitos restaurant and took some fish for them
to cook for us and it came out excellent ! when the bill came, we promptly paid it and added a 10% tip. when the waitress came back, she said there
wasn't enough propina and demanded more. as she did speak fairly good english, i told her " nobody " tells me how to spend my money and we left.
later on two different visits, two other friends went to the same restaurant and encountered the same attitude and did increase the propina as they
wanted to eat there again in the future and really enjoyed their meals.
it is my belief that 10% + is more than adequate as most of the restaurants pay mexican wages and charge american prices and we are all feeling the
pinch of the bad economy.
needless to say, i won't go back as i don't care to have anything foreign placed in my meals !
BIEN SALUD, DA RAT
|
|
|
mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 19934
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by BAJA.DESERT.RAT
it is my belief that 10% + is more than adequate
|
rat,
10% tip is an insult in USA, and an insult in Mexico.
if you can afford to travel to mexico, you can afford to not be a jerk to wait staff.
|
|
|
wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
|
|
Must agree with goat on the 10%... should be 20% and it depends on who is giving the tip and who is receiving .... 
GJ, perhaps it was something YOU said and/or did.. 
|
|
|
toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
|
|
I agree! A 10% tip is not adequate, although many locals and tourists tip 10% or sometimes nothing. I think good service deserves more. I always tip
20% unless they are really rude or overtly unattentive. Twenty percent is more the norm in the United States now...up from 15%.
However, a propina was apparently not the issue in Jan's case. There has been some really good speculation and insight in this string as to what the
problem could have been. The subtleties and nuances of prejudice is difficult to understand. I bet the lawyer has a clue. I am not saying he was
offensive. One does not necessarily need to be offensive in order to be discriminated against. 
Iflyfiish- As a former So. California surfer/beachrat in the 1950s, we used to laugh at the tourists in the plaid shorts. It wasn't just the plaid
shorts. Part of the uniform was: black street shoes, high socks and pasty white legs, which gave them a distinct "alien" look. A few of us felt sorry
for them, but most held outright disdain. 
We countered with the original gesture of lining up in a row dropping our trunks and mooning them. Another technique was to hang two out the front
window and two out the back window of a vehicle...four in a row, and honk the horn. We invented that as far as I know, only then we called it
"flipping the B A. (Bare A**) Any of you Gremmies remember that?   We were
ba-a-a-a-d! 
|
|
|
Mulegena
Super Nomad
Posts: 2412
Registered: 11-7-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Personally, I've found people here to be friendly and respectful, and I try to respond in kind. I've never had any troubles.
I don't use the "G" word, Gringo, which is a disparagment and have never heard a Mexican use the phrase. The common term used here in Baja is
"Americano" which refers to anyone non-Mexican. Extranjero, foreigner, is more apt. Mexicans usually ask me if I'm an Italian.
To use the word gabacho is just not-on, ever, imo.
|
|
|
Bajahowodd
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9274
Registered: 12-15-2008
Location: Disneyland Adjacent and anywhere in Baja
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
On the flip sign of that experience I discovered that women didn't shave their legs in Europe on that trip. Have you ever seen a woman with hairy
legs? It wasn't something I soon forgot. But I heard no giggles from those around her. |
It's not just the legs, my friend!
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
..
6 |
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
