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Gypsy Jan
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So Verbal Profiling is Simply a Shortcut?
In conversation in a cultural context, people use simple words to convey certain images and meaning to the subject of conversation, i.e., "Gringo",
"Moreno", "Gordo", "Guero", "Flaco", etc. Yes?
And the inflection and body language used with the words affects the meaning of the communication?
[Edited on 5-3-2010 by Gypsy Jan]
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness.”
—Mark Twain
\"La vida es dura, el corazon es puro, y cantamos hasta la madrugada.” (Life is hard, the heart is pure and we sing until dawn.)
—Kirsty MacColl, Mambo de la Luna
\"Alea iacta est.\"
—Julius Caesar
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toneart
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
In conversation in a cultural context, people use simple words to convey certain images and meaning to the subject of conversation, i.e., "Gringo",
"Moreno", "Gordo", "Guero", "Flaco", etc.
And the inflection and body language used with the words affects the meaning of the communication? |
Jan,
Perhaps not so much in the examples you are using here. They are pretty straight forward. They are just descriptive references meaning nothing bad.
But if these, or any words are colored by unusual inflection and body language, then I think they could be carrying a negative intent. You kinda have
to be present to pick up on all of that...and even then you could miss it. It may be subtle and outside of your/our culture unless you are immersed in
it. This goes to the larger topic of the mysterious treatment of Mexicans dining in public with you. The lawyer could be conveying a sense of
otherness or self importance.
I don't understand your subject title about profiling.
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Skipjack Joe
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The Limp Handshake
| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
It is as Osprey says...mexicanos who rub shoulders with gringos are sometimes considered barberos(kind of like a leech or brown noser) and it's not
cool to be showing off...which is how it might be perceived by the workers in the joint. I hear lots of nasty comments about locals who tr
y to hang around gringos...a word I hear all day every day here.
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Shari,
These statements imply, but don't state, that although Mexicans befriend gringos there remains a feeling that they (we) are fine people but not part
of the family. We remain estranjeros because we don't have the same roots. Is that true?
Have you ever received a limp handshake from a Mexican? What does it mean? Is it a nonverbal way of telling you that although I really like you, you
are not one of us? I ask because it never happens here in the US (all handshakes are the same) but in Mexico it seems to mean something. Please ask
Juan what it means.
Incidentally, if you marry a latino the limp handshake goes away (with the wife's kinfolk).
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Gypsy Jan
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Hi toneart, I used the word "Profiling"
To try to describe the encounter; something happened that was outside of my own understanding. My pedantic side wants to always tack a label on
something.
As usual, I am probably on the wrong side of trying to "be good or do good".
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness.”
—Mark Twain
\"La vida es dura, el corazon es puro, y cantamos hasta la madrugada.” (Life is hard, the heart is pure and we sing until dawn.)
—Kirsty MacColl, Mambo de la Luna
\"Alea iacta est.\"
—Julius Caesar
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irenemm
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I have been called a gringo for many years does not bother me.
about 10 years ago a kid pulled a knife on me. I told my daughter to call the cops. The kids also said to me go home gringa. I told the little punk I
have lived in Mexico longer than he had been alive so I had more right to Mexico than him. When the cops came I told them what he was wearing and what
he said. This part cracked me. When I told them that the kid had told me to go home gringa the 3 cops all gasped and said that was so bad. I laughed
it off. But sometimes it is not taken lightly at least by the Locals cops it was not. BTW the kids go 3 years.
You can be offended if you choose.
I choose not.
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Santiago
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Have you ever received a limp handshake from a Mexican? What does it mean? Is it a nonverbal way of telling you that although I really like you, you
are not one of us? I ask because it never happens here in the US (all handshakes are the same) but in Mexico it seems to mean something. Please ask
Juan what it means.
Incidentally, if you marry a latino the limp handshake goes away (with the wife's kinfolk). |
SJ: I've noticed that also. I've read that in Mexico men will give men a soft handshake. I'm guessing that a firm handshake is too aggressive??
I've dialed mine way back.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Have you ever received a limp handshake from a Mexican? What does it mean? |
It's just their manner. I've shaken hands with a few of the local Indios and it's no more than a light touching of the skin. In observation, they do
the same with each other. I guess the have no need to put their machismo into a handshake.
Another cultural difference.
The more cosmpolitan Mexican shakes hands with the same person almost daily....even relatives. I always figured that was to establish that his hand
was empty. 
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toneart
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
To try to describe the encounter; something happened that was outside of my own understanding. My pedantic side wants to always tack a label on
something.
As usual, I am probably on the wrong side of trying to "be good or do good". |
Jan,
Don't be so hard on yourself.
We have been talking about the spoken word. With the written word I read a lot into tone and civility. You score pretty high on that graph! 
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Martyman
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Thank you for the insights into the mexican culture. I have a lot to learn.
I've gone to bars in Mex and Guatemala...to have 1 or 2 beers. I can't do that anymore. Locals befriend you and want to keep drinking and take you
back to their house and ride horses and...
I just can't drink that much.
I just wanted a cupla' beers.
My new friends are extremely upset that I am leaving the bar. I feel bad but... I need a nap. People would be yelling nasties at me as I'm walking
away after being so friendly.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Martyman
My new friends are extremely upset that I am leaving the bar. I feel bad but... I need a nap. People would be yelling nasties at me as I'm walking
away after being so friendly. |
This could be more serious than you would ever imagine. If you did it at the wrong place, wrong time, you could be killed. Some country Mexicans will
take disrespect very seriously and turning down a drink that has been offered is a slap in the face...especially in front of his peers.
We won't be able to understand this, but it's important to understand the contracts we make when we join their social circle.
[Edited on 5-3-2010 by DENNIS]
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wessongroup
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Excellent point, Dennis
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Iflyfish
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I've been away for a while, very interesting thread. These cultural differences are fascinating and perplexing, not unlike the Venus/Mars dichotomy.
All of this is part of the wonder for me of travel. The bones in our own noses are the hardest to see. I hope I am always learning more about the
fascinating culture of Mexico.
I have been to remote villages where the handshake is a brief whisper, a feather touch, leaned not to go baracho with the locals, and now feign
stomach illness, or touristas if caught in the ancient dilemma of the proffered drinks, learned in Guadalajara at a table in Mariachi Square when our
table mates kept ordering fresh Tecate for each gulp we took. It all ended with us surrounded by mariachis and then brandished and fired pistols and
Federales and attempt to hand the gun to me under the table.
The Mexico I know is not the same Political Correct culture I come from, they have their own Political Correct, and I don’t know much of it and am
always grateful for their graciousness about that. I also know that there are rigid social hierarchies in Mexico and class and color count. What is
acceptable in one place, with one group, may not be at all acceptable in another. The term f...k has innumerable meanings depending upon context, tone
of voice, set of jaw, color of cheek etc. Context is everything. It is interesting to read the posts of toneart and Jan and to agree with them both,
sometimes it is all true.
By the way, Mrsfish is indeed Fly! Oh, my how Fly! She is also an amazing gringa at times and loves it. She is also wajo, don’t know spelling, and is
good at that too. I am often called Longusta, a name I have acquired for clearly understandable reasons. I burn way before I tan.
I have had problems with being called gordo, at times, but know that in Mexico, in certain subcultures, it is simply a short way of instant
identifying based upon the most obvious difference, again context is important. I cannot do the dozen with black friends, of certain social class, who
have a ball doing it with each other. Ditto with the term “nigga” which among friends might be not only acceptable but obligatory, for me to use it
risks life and limb no matter how well I know someone. In certain other black subcultures the dozen is never played and no one would ever refer to
another as “nigga”.
I am grateful for threads like this that help me to better understand our cultures and their differences.
Iflyfish
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bajabass
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The very first time I met my wife's family they were very cool and cordial. Once they decided I was O.K., the " can the gringo drink tequila test"
commenced. My wife's 2 brother-in-laws, her father, sister, and a close family friend sat down with me, a case of Tecate, limes, and 4 bottles of
Cazadores. A couple hours later, Alfredo, who is half again my size, and I, were the only two left. We were both 3 sheets to the wind, when he stood
up, slowly, and said I was now a part of the family. After almost 5 years now, the whole family treats me as an equal, and have become good friends.
It took them a little while to realize I was not stealing the baby girl in the family, and treat her like the queen she is. Honestly, I like most of
my wife's family more than most of my own! Now, the handshakes and hugs are firm and honest, on both sides. It took a little while for them to get
over the prejudice they learned living in Ensenada, due mostly to encounters with cruise ship tourists and partied out race people, to understand
there are good, respectful "gringos" around. They just needed to meet one. We had a birthday party for a good gringo friend in La Mision on new years.
Her whole family showed up, and sang the happy b-day song in Spanish for my 80yo friend, he was astonished and touched, as was I. I think my new
family is more eager for us to relocate to Mexico than my wife and I are. A few are even talking about following us to La Paz!
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Cypress
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bajabass, Thanks for sharing you story. It's looking like you're gonna be having a whole bunch of good times.
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bajabass
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Thank you Cypress. I think after a few more years I may write a self-help book for gringos married to Latinas. There is a lot to learn, most fun,
some, not so much. I wouldn't change a thing, just wish I had met her 30 years ago, when she was 8 ?? O.K., 20 years ago 18 is legal!!! LOL
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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Skipjack has asked me to reply to his question about handshakes and if it's possible to have a truly meaninful relationship with locals.
the feeble handshake is a normal thing here...shaking hands weakly is just being nice...not aggressive.
Many extranjeros have indeed been able to immerse into the culture and become like family..which in itself is a complex arrangement...family means
sharing the good AND the bad...coming to the aid of a family member when needed, showing you care on a regular basis and sharing the joy and pain of
the family. Mexican families touch base nearly every day...a visit, sharing food, converstation...this is the kind of commitment it takes to be part
of the "family".
Bajaboy and his family are an excellent example of cultural immersion as they have been truly accepted here and they can attest to what is involved in
being "family"!!! I would love to hear from some of our amigos about their experiences with becoming family here.
The extent of your involvement and acceptance into the "family" depends on several things like the amount of spanish spoken and understood, your
attitude and actions.
As I mentioned before, I am so pleased at the number of expats who have "found thier place" in the village "family".
there will always be locals who are jealous and/or dont want extranjeros here for whatever reason...so be it. Ya cant please everyone.
[Edited on 5-4-2010 by shari]
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Heather
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Family...got a call last night from Tia Lupe, "I'm at the trolley station, and I brought some machaca." Translation...can you pick me up and can I
stay awhile? Tia buys clothes in San Diego and LA and then transports them back to La Paz to sell. She is the sister of my recently departed
father-in-law. Not only did she bring the machaca, but lots of chisme de la familia, (especially about my mother-in-law, who I love).
My husband dropped her off at the trolley station this am. I forgot to check the spare room to see if she left a bag, otherwise, I don't know if
she'll be back or not! Sure feels like family to me!
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Bajaboy
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There is so much going on in this discussion. I think we need to remember that we all come to the discussion with our own perspectives, experiences,
and cultures. How one perceives a situation might be completely opposite of a person sitting in the same room. As such, I don't think there is
always a correct answer. The gringo debate is a perfect example. English is my first language and as such I understand the nuances associated with
its use. I can use the word Mexican is a number of ways depending on stress, context, etc. I am sure Gringo can be used in a similar way. Also,
intent of the speaker does not always translate into how the word my be taken.
With regards to being accepted into a community...well, I think this is very complex. What community are we referring to? The community in general,
a neighborhood of local Mexicans, a gringo community, a fishing community?
Speaking to being a part of local Mexican community, I feel my family has slowly becoming enculturated. We try and respect the local customs and
norms while staying true to our values. It has taken a great deal of patience and understanding. For example, when the 18 wheeler truck pulls behind
our place, turns on the loud cumbia music, and proceeds to having a rolling party in the neighborhood, my first instinct is to get upset and yell my
frustrations at the people. At home in San Diego, I would probably call the cops. I have learned, though, that while this is annoying in BA, it is
also accepted. As such, we have altered, or at least tried to adjust our attitudes.
We also have gone out of our way to meet our neighbors. We frequently spend time with them and learn from them. We often forego the gringo parties
in favor of the local fiestas. We prefer the enculturation and might actually offend some of our gringo friends.
All cultures have their uniqueness and similarities. I think we need to remind ourselves of this.
With my experience, I have often erred on the side of not offending my surrounding neighbors.
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DENNIS
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Well said, Zac.
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bajabass
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X2 for sure. Learning the nuances will take years. I can't wait to get started!!
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