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Author: Subject: Cross-Cultural Confusion
durrelllrobert
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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 09:21 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish

I vividly recall an experience in the 1950s of my father and uncle being laughed out of a restaurant in Montana; they were dressed in plaid Bermuda shorts, all the rave at that time in our home state of California.

I have the same problem when I go to restaurants in Canada with my wife's relatives:lol::lol:




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Iflyfish
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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 09:53 AM


durrellrobert,

which of you gets kicked out? canadians can be very discerning people.

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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 01:55 PM


five pages and Jessie's first comment is dead on.

story short one- I noticed a pattern. When going out with Mexican friends for dinner in Loreto they would tend to be on the rude and demanding side so as to impress me and my gringo friends. They sent back food, drinks, complained in general. this went on for a couple of dinners out with each of three friends on separate occasions. In the USA you act that way they mess with your order, or at least you can imagine it. Here apparently they don't think about that. I pointed out this behavior to each of these people and well we don't encounter this problem anymore.

Maybe the behavior changes around me for some reason I thought, simply because I am a sock wearing, shaved leg, sandle wearing, plaid bermuda shorts wearing kind of woman who doesn't mind being called a gringa? Hmmm.

I am sad that Juan is pressured to feel the way he does and change his behavior because of it. Francisco and I dine with gringos often and always have a great time, sh-ite we're all just people with Mexico in common. Yes there are a-holes who may treat us differently but they can be "messed with" when given the opportunity.

Cross-cultural confusion is the source of our problems. Both sides can use improvement.
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shari
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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 05:58 PM


thing is...Juan hasnt had to change his behavior...he never ever went to a restaurant to eat before he met me anyway!!! only went for tacos at stands here...no big deal....hmmm....messin with aholes...sounds intriguing!
things are also much different in the big cities like Loreto...much more cosmopolitan. I'm glad Francisco gets to go out to eat alot.

But it is really hard on the few locals who work with gringos...a good example are our builders who do alot of work for norte americanos building here. They tell me how they have been alienated in the village....jealousy is hideous but common. Hopefully these are just growing pains and will evolve in a more positive way as change occurs.




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Iflyfish
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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 10:49 PM


Zero sum thinking, "if they get theirs, I can't get mine" "There is only so much to go around" That sort of thinking makes sense in a place with finite resources. If there is only one car in town and you don't own it then you walk and may feel peeed at the guy who has one. This concept is hard to comprehend in a culture as rich as the USofA. In Mexico historically and in most of Mexico now one is lucky to find a single item of what one is looking for in a store, in the USofA the issure is having to choose between 15 different kinds of that same item.

Seriously don't you ever harbor resentment over rich folks like Trump when you are struggling to make ends meet? or the uber rich in this country who throw thousands of dollars away on dog grooming and such like that?

I scratch my head sometimes as I think about the fact that all of my neighbors have the same crap in their garages that I do. How many lawn mowers are required after all to cut all of the grass in my neighborhood?


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Barry A.
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[*] posted on 5-6-2010 at 08:37 AM


IFlyfish says,

"How many lawn mowers are required after all to cut all of the grass in my neighborhood? "

I take care of my lawnmower (and everything else), and the result is my lawnmower is 35 years old and still runs great (second engine, tho). Do you think it would last that long with others in the neighborhood using it?? I don't think so. We all have different "standards" and "priorities" which make it very uncomfortable (for me at least) to let others use my equipment very often, with a few exceptions. I often shutter at the things I see my neighbors do, but I love them anyway as long as I don't have to pay for their seemingly crazy mistakes.

I have no doubt that Nomad Diane T. would think me a "worm". :lol:

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[*] posted on 5-6-2010 at 09:59 PM


I guess I won't bogart your mower Barry. My point is not to encourage communism but to point out the abundance that we live with. Though now that you mention it, some more socialism via government control and regulation might do us all some real good. Who owns the ocean that those guys have polluted anyway? Me thinks it belongs to all of us and the creatures in it.

In small communities and villages there are a limited number of material goods and in some ways that encourages cooperation, competition and jealousy depending upon the character and history and traditions of those who live there. People with access to more resources can easily be targeted by those who feel jealousy at their success. Don't you kind of resent Trump and his smug kids and the likes of Paris Hilton, et al? From wence comes our fascination with the fall of the great, i.e. Tiger Woods? I would postulate that it is a couple of the seven deadlies, common to us all; jealosy and envy.

It took cooperation for us to get out of the proverbial cave, but that doesn't mean that the short guys never hated the strong athletic types. And no, I don't want to borrow your basket ball.

On second thought I don't want your old decrepit mower, one of my other neighbors probably has a newer and better one and I will barter with him ::light: :biggrin: Or better yet, in the more traditional way of the passive aggressive, I will chinga you and let my lawn grow out of control and that aught to bring down your property values. :light:

Viva la revolution Diane T! Huelga! Fight the imperialist dogs, oops, "we have seen the enemy and he is us", Pogo said that.

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Barry A.
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[*] posted on 5-6-2010 at 10:26 PM


Fish said, "Don't you kind of resent Trump and his smug kids and the likes of Paris Hilton, et al? From wence comes our fascination with the fall of the great, i.e. Tiger Woods? I would postulate that it is a couple of the seven deadlies, common to us all; jealosy and envy. "

The answer is no, just the opposite. I admire them all, and the success they have achieved, albiet with considerable help. I don't envy anybody their success, but I do wish that I had some of their talent. Still, I have done ok, and I am very contented with that.

LIfe is good-----no, GREAT!!!! (the Market did not help me today, tho-------groan!!!!) :no:

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[*] posted on 5-8-2010 at 08:15 AM


Thought of the day:

"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care."



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[*] posted on 5-8-2010 at 11:15 AM


Re the use of "gringo", my wife relates a story from her youth in Mexico City that always brings a chuckle.

One day while playing in the front yard she (at about age 5-6) saw a bus full of north american tourists passing through the neighborhood and ran to tell her mother: "Aqui vienen los gringos! Aqui vienen los gringos!"

Her mom found that quite funny, coming from her blond, blue-eyed daughter... My wife was surprised to learn that they too were gringos from Chicago. (Her dad worked for a steel company there.)
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[*] posted on 5-10-2010 at 06:18 AM


I have been traveling in Mexico since the late 50's and thought that I knew a little of the language and the culture, and probably did more so than most, but it was not until I moved in to a smaller village and became a more or less permanent resident did I really feel like I became a part of the town, people and culture. When I started to look for a place to live in Mexico I knew that I was not attracted to the Norteamericano settlements like Mulege, Loreto, Punta Chivato, or San Lucas Cove, but wanted a place where there was a more natural mixture of both cultures. I did not want to give up my roots but was looking for a new challenge to see if I could develop the language skills to function and the acceptance to fit in. Because fishing is such an important part of who I am and what I am all about, I naturally gravitated to a fishing village and further gravitated to a very rewarding relationship with a fisherman who is one of my best friends. It took us awhile to develop the trust and understanding to become such good friends and must have been as difficult for him as it was for me, but with time and persistence it has worked out very well for both of us. While I have helped him to understand the Norteamericano culture and thought process, he has also helped me to see in to the workings and thoughts of the Mexican side of things. I have had to be very careful not to be seen as a "sugar daddy" but I also share when I can, but the sharing and interchange has mutual benefits for both of us.
Because of the development of this primary relationship, the community has become very open and sees me as a permanent resident so I get invited to dinner, special events, activities, and so on, but they also feel free to come to my house, especially when I play music with friends, or we have a fish fry or some other special occasion. I find that people have learned that it is ok just to come by and spend time on the porch and tell stories or just talk. some of the fishermen come by to check on what I know about the weather or predictions for the next few days, knowing that I seem to understand when it is a good time to go out. If I am painting or doing something in the yard, usually someone stops by to help a little and they will bring a fishing reel or broken rod to see if I can help fix it too.
So the part where this topic started was the restaurant experience and one of the things that I learned early was that when I had a family with me and my wife before she passed, then we were always treated well, but if I had a single male, the situation was usually different. But, it depended somewhat on how the other person acted as well. I had one friend who got that response fairly frequently so I started observing more closely about how he interacted and he did change his demeanor and I had to watch very closely to catch the small signals like hand placement, eye rolling, and tone of voice.




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[*] posted on 5-10-2010 at 08:33 AM


When we used to camp out on remote beaches, we mostly spent time with other gringos, and my Spanish only ever got to "grocery store questions" level.
Now with putting down roots in Asuncion, we are living in total immersion. My Spanish is s l o w l y getting better, mainly because there are so many people that will help me struggle along. Often with alot of laughter!
We are overwhelmed with the friendships we are making. I know that if we had some kind of emergency, there would be people to help, no question, and we feel the same.

Sure wish I was there today for the Mother's Day bash!
Talk about cross-cultural differences!
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[*] posted on 5-10-2010 at 09:38 AM
Not confused at all...just dumb.


Often when a Martian comes to our village it can get a little weird, but other than that I can't say living in Mulege is more confusing than any other small town on the planet.
The little differences in culture are fun to learn...ancedotes in life...just like Up North with the Algonquin, Cree, Souix, Cheyenne, Finlanders, Swedes, and Italians.

Now I always leave that last 1/2 inch of beer in the Pacifico bottle...:rolleyes:
Did you know that...in the Canadian bush, one can get married simply by holding hands & jumping over a log together?
.
.
As I got to know Mulege and it's people, I realized that it is exactly like the small towns one left in America.. out west..or back east..or up north... or down south. We just have better tans and catch more fish.




Tested out as border-line imbecile, I'm not a great language student and my Spanish sentence structure is still lousy after all these years, but I can converse well enough both in Spanish and matters of the heart. Folks I know here call me a Mulegeno...which is kinda nice and makes me smile a lot.


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On the other hand, American metropolis, the USA, is a zillion times more culture-confusing these days than Baja ever could be. Have you taken a taxi lately from JFK...brrr..

[Edited on 5-10-2010 by Pompano]




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[*] posted on 5-10-2010 at 12:23 PM


I don't know if being married to a Mexican lady helps or not, but like you and others Pompano, I am having fun while I am trying to learn the customs, culture, and lingo. My wife embraces the parts she likes. Like yesterday, Mothers Day here, a nice dinner out is expected. BUT, today is Mothers Day in Mexico, AND my wife's birthday! I better be double adoring and generous. :lol: We have double anniversaries also. Our U.S. wedding on July 2nd, and our Ensenada Extravaganza on August 11th. Ding, Ding, Ding. :wow:
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[*] posted on 5-10-2010 at 12:29 PM


"All you need is love"
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[*] posted on 5-10-2010 at 01:35 PM


Well...this has certainly been really interesting reading ... cultures are so interesting and confusing ... and we have had many lessons here

1. If Les does not invite some of our Male Mexican friends, they do not consider themselves invited, even tho I call and invite them ... this one I can understand but jeeeeeeeeeeeeez

2. One of the things we have done, since we run a B & B, is to make sure the wealth is spread ... we send our guests to eat at local spots, I take them to buy arts & crafts at the local craftsperson's house, another guy brings by his T-shirts to sell .... there is a piece of the pie for everyone

3. My family is Brazilian .... and I cannot begin to tell you the extremely complex nuances of a gringo living and being accepted in Brazil (and gringo there only means being born in a country other than Brazil)

........Someone REALLY ought to write a how to adapt book for Mexico (hint hint Shari or any others !!!) ... A book was written in Rio on "How to Be a Carioca" and you know what ? It was written as a joke but is spot on (as they say in England). A life saver for many

NOW, one of the quirky behaviours in Bocana: women go out in their pajamas in the mornings and rake their lawns ... some of them open shop in their pj's. Does this happen anywhere else ???????????????





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[*] posted on 5-10-2010 at 02:00 PM


In loreto they don't bother with pajamas.
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[*] posted on 5-10-2010 at 02:24 PM


PJ's outside in the morning is another habit I happily adopted from my neighbour amigas. :yes:



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shari
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[*] posted on 5-11-2010 at 09:53 AM


Oh Blanca...the raking in PJ's is hilarious....I am so amazed they do this as people are so concerned about how they look!! Go figure!!

Another interesting difference is that it is not the custom to knock on someones door...ya just drive up to their house and wait till they come outside. If they dont and you really need to talk to them...you get out of your car(if you arent afraid of dogs) stroll slowly up to the house and whistle....if you cant whistle, you might say..buenos dias a few times...but actually knocking on a door is considered a bit invasive(rude).

And here is a funny cultural thing that always takes me by surprise....these are little chocolate treats are called Raztachoc...how bout THAT for packaging...think this would go over big in the STATES??

DSC05210.JPG - 46kB




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[*] posted on 5-11-2010 at 10:00 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by shari
Another interesting difference is that it is not the custom to knock on someones door...ya just drive up to their house and wait till they come outside.


That same custom is held on the Navajo Reservation.
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