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astrobaja
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Paleolithic stone tools found in San Pedro Martir
Hi all,
Had some friends down from Vista over the last few days, they brought with them a good friend from Australia. Besides being an expert in reptiles,
Tony was also a amatuer archeaologist for the last 40 years. Just walking up the road which leads to Mikes Sky ranch he found many basalt hand tools
most probably from the paleolithic period. Some (the darker ones) had little patina and could have been as recent as a few 100 years old. The far
right shows small blades and the lower left ones are hand scrapers for hides! Amazing how stuff like this can be underfoot and all you need to know is
what to look for!
Anybody know any Baja archeologists perhaps at UNAM?
I read on this page that the Pericues tribe was the last surviving members of the Clovis people which could go back as far as 50,000 bp!
http://www.utsydney.cn/www-staffit/~simmonds/Sophy/early_man...
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
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astrobaja
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As shot of the nicest tool, a 3 inch blade
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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MrBillM
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Thank God
We've now got Home Depot.
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BajaBruno
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Nice collection you have there, astrobaja. Although there is a lot of speculation about earlier dates, no one that I have read about has been able to
substantiate a date for humans in the Americas before 14,000 years ago. Still a long stinking time ago, but post-Paleolithic period, I believe. None
of that diminishes that you have a very interesting find.
Christopher Bruno, Elk Grove, CA.
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Mexitron
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Nice collection astrobaja...! I ran into a paleontologist in the Santa Barbara backcountry years ago and he was convinced that humans have been here
a lot longer than 14,000 yrs ago...but the proof isn't there yet, like BajaBruno says.
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bacquito
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very interesting, we are alway learning new things and suggesting new ideas-that's just being human. Thanks for sharing.
bacquito
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landyacht318
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Interesting topic.
I do have a couple arrowheads I found in Baja. It is a weird feeling to find something used by humans so long ago.
[Edited on 5-20-2010 by landyacht318]
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Osprey
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Not too many tourists visiting Baja California now but there is proof all over the peninsula that early man hit the place again and again down through
the ages. Many parts of the long finger don't hold enough food and water for them to stay long, other parts along the shore could and did sustain
longer occupations. Close to Lake Chapala is a little cave where visitors stopped for the night for at least the last 10,000 years and there were
visitors to areas down south here maybe as long as 40,000 years ago. The California and Great Basin Indian groups traveled the peninsula at about 100
miles per generation but that migration was only a few hundred years ago. They weren't tourists but people looking to stay.
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MrBillM
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Find and Release ?
NAH !
There's no point since Most of us KNOW that the next guy to come along will take home the ones we leave behind.
But, if anybody wants to look and not touch so they can feel warm about their high-mindedness and superior morals, that's OK, too.
The owners of the tools aren't going to miss them.
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oldjack
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Those artifacts would make a great static display(somewhere near where they were gathered) for all to enjoy... I have a metal detector in Los Barriles
and have been stopped while out and about by the Police and have been warned that artifacts cannot be disturbed or removed from Baja... apparently big
penalties.. just info for you...
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mtgoat666
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Cool finds. They are easy to find near sources of year-round water supply, and quite easy to findwhen you klnow what to look for.
Don't publicize the location -- just encourages "pot robbers"(and in particular do not reveal location to DK! he can't control his urges to spread
the word)
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wilderone
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[From the attached link]
"However, there is new evidence for people being in America at least as early as 50,000 years b.p. And there is other evidence that an earlier people,
possibly an Australian or Polynesian race, were displaced by the Clovis people. Possibly the last survivors of this original people were the Pericues
tribe of Baja California, who became extinct in the 18th century. This idea is politically controversial, as it could undermine Native American claims
to land taken from them by Europeans, if it can be shown that they displaced an earlier people in their turn."
These statements are without proof so far.
I find scraper tools all over baja. On the Meling Ranch property, I found pot sherds, scraper tools, morteros and slicks on some of the boulders, and
there are pictographs there as well. The streams running through there provided ideal habitation sites, providing essential water and well as an
environment for animal species for food. People probably lived in the area, off and on for hundreds of years, in relatively small numbers.
It's difficult to determine how old these scraper tools are without more information, such as comparisons with other artifacts from other areas which
do provide dating clues. The indigenous from this area don't fall into the "basketmaker" or "developmental pueblo" of the Four Corners area
(including "Clovis", "Folsom", "Sandia") which has been widely studied, and with the benefit of so many artifacts over such a large area - housing
(some tree ring evidence), burials, clothing, pottery, trade route clues (macaw feathers, ornamentation), weapons, tools, large middens containing
DNA. But the indigenous of Baja and So. California (e.g. Cuyamaca area) didn't leave behind much to study - seemed like they never got to the Pueblo
stage in spite of the fact they were known to inhabit regions as late as 200 years ago - well within the Pueblo period - but were not as advanced as
other other indigenous cultures in North America. Now this would be an interesting study - why were they so different, developmentally, than their
Four Corners paisons?
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by astrobaja
Hi all,
...Anybody know any Baja archeologists perhaps at UNAM?...
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Dr. Eric Ritter...
See his papers on stone tools published by the Pacific Coast Archaeological Society. (Winter, 1994 Vol. 30, No. 1)
He is the man I spoke to about the mystery walls (lost mission?) discovered by the Erle Stanley Gardner party and reported by Choral Pepper in 1966...
http://vivabaja.com/109
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Barry A.
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Wilderone said, " But the indigenous of Baja and So. California (e.g. Cuyamaca area) didn't leave behind much to study - seemed like they never got to
the Pueblo stage in spite of the fact they were known to inhabit regions as late as 200 years ago - well within the Pueblo period - but were not as
advanced as other other indigenous cultures in North America. Now this would be an interesting study - why were they so different, developmentally,
than their Four Corners paisons? "
This is widely attributed too the mild climate of S. Cal./Baja and lack of "enemies" which did not require the indigenous folks to aspire to much or
defend anything-------no need to, as all their immediate needs were met by the natural scene and lack of adverse conditions by moving around
constantly (mountains to desert to coast, depending on the season). Sorta like So Cal today as it goes into a downward spiral of malaise and
lazyness and into decay as folks "needs" are met by the increasingly socialistic society, big government, and the delightful climate. (?!?!?!?)
We will see what happens down the road. I am not optimistic. History repeating itself, perhaps.
Barry
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Wilderone said, " But the indigenous of Baja and So. California (e.g. Cuyamaca area) didn't leave behind much to study - seemed like they never got to
the Pueblo stage in spite of the fact they were known to inhabit regions as late as 200 years ago - well within the Pueblo period - but were not as
advanced as other other indigenous cultures in North America. Now this would be an interesting study - why were they so different, developmentally,
than their Four Corners paisons? "
This is widely attributed too the mild climate of S. Cal./Baja and lack of "enemies" which did not require the indigenous folks to aspire to much or
defend anything-------no need to, as all their immediate needs were met by the natural scene and lack of adverse conditions by moving around
constantly (mountains to desert to coast, depending on the season). Sorta like So Cal today as it goes into a downward spiral of malaise and
lazyness and into decay as folks "needs" are met by the increasingly socialistic society, big government, and the delightful climate. (?!?!?!?)
We will see what happens down the road. I am not optimistic. History repeating itself, perhaps.
Barry |
ya, sure is funny when the white man uses all his smarts to interpret and understand the motives/desires of cultures he extinguished   crock
of horse hooey, the white man basically practiced genocide, and now he is getting all touchy feely and investigating the exterminated culture 
barry, your argument for easy living in so cal does not jive with same argument made for NW coast indians -- the argument that arts/buildings
flourished because the living was so easy.
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
People probably lived in the area, off and on for hundreds of years, in relatively small numbers.
It's difficult to determine how old these scraper tools are without more information, such as comparisons with other artifacts from other areas which
do provide dating clues. |
probably more like lived there for 1,000s of years.
actually, age is probably quite recent. most items found on ground are usually just a few hundred years old at most. if much more time has passed,
then erosion, deposition, transport, etc., has usually moved/buried the items. ground litter is usually quite recent.
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astrobaja
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Mtgoat: I don't think you would classify this as a true surface find as it was on a bulldozed road which is criss crossed by many several feet deep
erosion gullies. I think an educated guess given the history of the region would indicate that the main inhabitants were Kiliwa for a long time. Our
oak forests (for acorns made into flour) pine nuts, and year round water probably made for an ideal habitat. Our ranch was "bought" (probably for a
song) from a Kiliwa woman called Chepa by Aida Meling. There are several old falling down homesteads here.
My Wifes Uncle is Harry Crosby so I'll send him the pics, I'm sure he knows or knows someone that could shed more light.
Barry: I'm pretty sure all gatherer/hunter cultures would be considered "socialist" The idea of individualism as it exists in so called modern culture would have been totally alien to them!
I give modern man another 50 years living as we are on the planet, before we go through a huge extinction (largely through our own stupidity) we are
after all just another animal on the planet!
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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astrobaja
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Don Jorge:
yes thats right it is'nt underfoot anymore! It was in the middle of the road where off road vehicles and bikes tours drive. Hello but I think I may
have "saved" them!!
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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MrBillM
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Long Gone and ....................
Just as well forgotten. They're not coming back.
Don't get me wrong. I LOVE Natural History, and love seeing/finding "things" like those shown. I once found a Mexican Beer Bottle out in the Desert
unlike any I'd seen before. That was cool, too. Still have it on a shelf. That had more significance than the Indian Arrowheads I'd found since it
revealed something I hadn't been aware of.
Curios are neat to find, fun to look at and interesting as an indicator of previous technological progress, but nothing we haven't been aware of for a
long time. If, on the other hand, we unearth a 4-Cam Fuel-injected V-12 dating back to that time period, THAT would expand our knowledge base. And,
our appreciation for the Natives.
As for the people themselves, their previous lives, too, are interesting curios, but without any modern-day relevance. Whether any of them were
victims of Genocide and by WHO, Who cares ? Nothing's going to bring them back and I don't know anybody who was responsible for their disappearance.
Whatever European policies led to whoever's demise for whatever reason is past. Not happening anymore.
But, like I said, NEAT Artifacts. Enjoy.
[Edited on 5-20-2010 by MrBillM]
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Barry A.
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Good grief, Goat------------it is freezing in the NW, and it rains all the time up there-------that ain't "easy living" in my book!! But, as
northern Europe has shown, cold wet weather fosters inovation, and mankind to advance, invent things, and generally better his existance-----to try
and mitigate and escape the harsh conditions that he finds in the northern latitudes.
SoCal is EASY, with little to inspire anybody, except to figure out how to relax even more, get high, and get bored-----the so called "good life".
Barry
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