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Barry A.
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AstroBaja said, "Barry: I'm pretty sure all gatherer/hunter cultures would be considered "socialist" The idea of individualism as it exists in so
called modern culture would have been totally alien to them!"
Yes, Astro, you are of course correct. Even today the general thinking in some American Indian cultures (maybe all) tends towards socialism, as my
son can attest to. He has worked for the Paiutes in Bishop (6 years), and before that for the Hoopa in N. CA. (3 years), and before that on the Island
of Chuuk (Truk) (3 years) in the Central Pacific------all 3 societies tending towards socialism. It serves them, and they have a long tradition of
it. This may partially explain why those cultures tend to continue thru the generations pretty much the same, seldom advancing significantly (by
western standards) as a society.
Barry
[Edited on 5-20-2010 by Barry A.]
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Good grief, Goat------------it is freezing in the NW, and it rains all the time up there-------that ain't "easy living" in my book!! But, as
northern Europe has shown, cold wet weather fosters inovation, and mankind to advance, invent things, and generally better his existance-----to try
and mitigate and escape the harsh conditions that he finds in the northern latitudes.
SoCal is EASY, with little to inspire anybody, except to figure out how to relax even more, get high, and get bored-----the so called "good life".
Barry |
how about comparisons to Aztecs??????? you really should try to stay closer to geographic focus point of this salon
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Iflyfish
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Wow, the first Socialist tools made by lazy welfare state types basking in the sun. Amazing!
Great find, the napping is clear, wonder if they were made near by?
Thanks for sharing these great pics.
Iflyfish
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
It serves them, and they have a long tradition of it. This may partially explain why those cultures tend to continue thru the generations pretty
much the same, seldom advancing significantly as a society.
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who is defining "pretty much the same, seldom advancing"?
Barry, you got blinders on. not everyone wants their society to advance so it looks like Irvine CA.
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Good grief, Goat------------it is freezing in the NW, and it rains all the time up there-------that ain't "easy living" in my book!! But, as
northern Europe has shown, cold wet weather fosters inovation, and mankind to advance, invent things, and generally better his existance-----to try
and mitigate and escape the harsh conditions that he finds in the northern latitudes.
SoCal is EASY, with little to inspire anybody, except to figure out how to relax even more, get high, and get bored-----the so called "good life".
Barry |
how about comparisons to Aztecs??????? you really should try to stay closer to geographic focus point of this salon |
----or even more dramatic a civilization, the Mayan's, who certainly advanced in a very mild climate------exceptions to the rule, for sure. The
Aztec's did live at elevation, so not the same conditions as the Mayan's----slightly harsher.
Barry
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
It serves them, and they have a long tradition of it. This may partially explain why those cultures tend to continue thru the generations pretty
much the same, seldom advancing significantly as a society.
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who is defining "pretty much the same, seldom advancing"?
Barry, you got blinders on. not everyone wants their society to advance so it looks like Irvine CA. |
I have noticed few that want to live in circumstances other than pretty much like "Irving, CA"--------Have you?
Barry
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wilderone
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"actually, age is probably quite recent. most items found on ground are usually just a few hundred years old at most"
Near Bahia Asuncion, there is a large area covered with fosillized shells that must be about 2 million years old. Just sitting on top of the ground.
I found an 8,000 year old drillpoint just sitting on top of the ground on an island off California. Along the cliffs at Bahia San Ignacio there are
broken matates, turtle bones and scraper tools just sitting on top of the sand. About a foot below the surface there are layers of decomposing turtle
shells and more scraper tools. An arid climate will preserve artifacts more so than areas that get a lot more precipitation. So it is difficult to
determine the age of a scraper tool found on the ground, when it is known that habitation has occurred over several thousand years, without more. Who
can say when, and what forces caused some artifact to finally be found "sitting on top of the ground"?
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gnukid
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Don Jorge
| Quote: | Originally posted by astrobaja
Amazing how stuff like this can be underfoot and all you need to know is what to look for! |
how it isn't underfoot anymore. Does anyone just stop, marvel at the significance of the find, bend down, handle the artifacts and put them back
where and how they were so perhaps other generations can enjoy the sense of discovery?
Nah,what was I thinking, of course not. Lets put it on the net!!!!!!!!!!!
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Some do pick up rocks and tools and put them down again, often in different places across the globe, in tribute or by accident. This is where it
becomes more difficult for archeologists to determine who and when.
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wilderone
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"sure is funny when the white man uses all his smarts to interpret and understand the motives/desires of cultures he extinguished crock of horse
hooey, the white man basically practiced genocide, and now he is getting all touchy feely and investigating the exterminated culture"
The Spaniards and Apaches, and the great drought of 1276 to 1299 (confirmed by tree ring dating) caused the extermination of many tribes. It's simply
a study of the unknown, when the known presents itself (like a scraper tool or a pictograph). And warfare has been ongoing since man occupied earth -
haven't learned a darn thing about that.
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Mexitron
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
Just as well forgotten. They're not coming back.
Don't get me wrong. I LOVE Natural History, and love seeing/finding "things" like those shown. I once found a Mexican Beer Bottle out in the Desert
unlike any I'd seen before. That was cool, too. Still have it on a shelf. That had more significance than the Indian Arrowheads I'd found since it
revealed something I hadn't been aware of.
Curios are neat to find, fun to look at and interesting as an indicator of previous technological progress, but nothing we haven't been aware of for a
long time. If, on the other hand, we unearth a 4-Cam Fuel-injected V-12 dating back to that time period, THAT would expand our knowledge base. And,
our appreciation for the Natives.
As for the people themselves, their previous lives, too, are interesting curios, but without any modern-day relevance. Whether any of them were
victims of Genocide and by WHO, Who cares ? Nothing's going to bring them back and I don't know anybody who was responsible for their disappearance.
Whatever European policies led to whoever's demise for whatever reason is past. Not happening anymore.
But, like I said, NEAT Artifacts. Enjoy.
[Edited on 5-20-2010 by MrBillM] |
I think the idea is that folks who want to research this stuff still have something to work with in field...Baja's history is still being uncovered.
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Mexitron
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On the Central Baja Coast there are many rocky soil-less areas, and occasionally you can find not only a quartz arrowhead but the pile of flakes
he/she chipped off to make it (guess in that situation the arrowhead wasn't up to snuff and was discarded into the pile)...lack of soil keeps them
exposed, wonder how old they could be...
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Tomas Tierra
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
I found an 8,000 year old drillpoint just sitting on top of the ground on an island off California. |
Carefull what you write..The blackhawk copters and ak47 wielding federal agents may be on the way!
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Tomas Tierra
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Keep your eyes open, you never know what you'll find in Baja!!
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MrBillM
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Communal versus Socialist
The argument illustrates the difficulty of adapting modern thought with ancient subsistence living.
While the primitives lived a "Communal" life, stretching that to an analogy with Socialism, which centers around a State-Ownership and Authority to
govern production and distribution as understood today, is flawed.
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wilderone
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ooooh Tomas - very nice. where did those come from?
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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Tomas....what a wonderful collection. I would love to know what the different pedernales were used for. For example, those really teeny ones with all
the barbs...were they arrowheads??? or spearheads....pretty tiny spear...were they for birds, gophers, little fishies?
does anyone here know what they were used for?
Other questions are...where did they bring the obsidian from? Our area has thousands of chips and was obviously some sort of workshop but there is no
bulk obsidian around that I know of.
this time of year the winds uncover new layers of chips and artifacts...they appear and disappear all the time. It was probably some kind of seasonal
camp here I figure but there sure was a prolific pedernal carver here.
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
Other questions are...where did they bring the obsidian from? Our area has thousands of chips and was obviously some sort of workshop but there is no
bulk obsidian around that I know of.
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there is obsidian at valle de azufre east of you on the gulf. researchers have found evidence of "ancient" obsidian "mining" at the site.
also obsidian is found in a few central baja locations.
those crazy people were carrying rocks across the mountains on their backs, because they did not have toyota tacomas
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Mexitron
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shari---that's the first time I've heard the term "pedernales" used as a noun---is that spanish? Only use I've heard it used is for a beautiful river
and waterfall in the Hill Country in Texas (Pedernales State Park near Johnson City).
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shari
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Pedernal is translated..."flint" which I just thought might be more "accurate" to describe what we find here. Arrowhead to me, denotes a bow and arrow
type thing...spearheads obviously go on spears...
the word pedernal is commonly used in these parts to describe any of the above...things used to hunt with.
I had a wonderful big, muscular, obsidian black, shiny horse who was aptly named Pedernal.
It would be cool if someone knowledgeable in this field could do a psyber workshop in this topic...maybe through a live chat room discussion.
Perhaps this board might branch out into more creative & educational venues...we could organize chat times on certain topics of interest and
invite a specialist in that field to discuss them and answer questions live.
see what I'm getting at anybody??
some suggested examples of topics...pineapple growing, gardening tips, fossils, crafts, building techniques, cooking, cultural questions, etc.
Maybe when obviously popular topics of interest crop up on the board, we could arrange a time to meet in a chat room to discuss them..just an idea.
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bajalera
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Well, since qualifications are being given, I'll mention that my late husband was the first professional archaeologist to work in Baja California.
Some interesting artifacts we collected and deposited in the museum in La Paz in 1964 were later colllected and taken home by the boy scouts who hung
out there.
My articles published in the Pacific Coast Archaeological Society Quarterly include two on artifacts that took one helluva amount of time to make with
tools made of stone:
"Table and Atlatl: Two Unusual Artifacts from Baja California," pp. 25-34
Vol. 8, No. 1
"Chacuaco: The Tubular Stone Pipe in Baja California," pp. 21-29
Vol. 12, No. 1
As for dating, archaeologist Harumi Fujita, who is based in La Paz, has collected material on Isla Espiritu Santo that she believes substantiates a
date of around 45,000 B. C., but the jury is still out on whether this will be accepted.
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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