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vgabndo
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From my research it appears that "projectile point" is in common use because it is often difficult to determine which manner was used to propel them.
Goat is correct about the effectiveness of even small projectile points on large animals. These days, though, when very few people need deer or bear
meat to survive there is little justification for not killing the animals humanely. I decry today's "sportsmen" who hide in a tree, wound the animal
with an arrow, take the quad back to camp and drink beer while waiting for the animal to die in pain drowning in it's own blood.
Where I live, the people from whom we took the land lived a sustainable lifestyle. They could still be living happily as they had since the coming of
man to this region were it not for the greed of the European Christians who considered then no more than heathen savages and invited them to picnics
for purposes of poisoning them.
I'm proud of the last six months I've spent organizing my community to honor the craft traditions of the Karuk/Yurok/Hupa people on the rivers west of
here. We now have 60 examples of fine weaving displayed in a state-of-the-art case financed and created by volunteers!
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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bajalera
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Vgabndo got it right--"projectile point" is a catch-all term used by archaeologists because they can't always tell whether the stones tipped an arrow
or a spear.
Flint seems to be applied in much the same way--I read somewhere that this word covers three or four different materials. Can't remember what they
are, but I'll bet someone else does.
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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Barry A.
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Excellent work, Vagabndo!!! I applaud your valuable and needed efforts here, even if I don't agree with some of your comments and interpretations.
Well done. I will have to run up from Redding and take a look.
Barry
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Bwana_John
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Flint, chert, chalcedony, obsidian and all the other "glassy" type of rocks used for projectile points (because of their property's of concodial
fracture) are all forms of cryptocrystalline quartz.
Their method of formation (ie volcanic, sedimentary, or metamorphic), the crystal size, and ratio of quartz to other elements are all different but
the material is all very closely related in that it is mostly comprised of very very small xtls of quarz.
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Bwana_John
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| Quote: |
are you sure these tiny ones about the lenth of my baby fingernail but narrower...w
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The catch-all term for those is "bird-point" whether they were for birds,small or big game.
Even a fire hardened wood arrow tip will kill a deer if you hit it correctly. A little glass just helps things out more.
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Osprey
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Mr. google says obsidian makes really, really sharp edges because IT IS NOT CRYSTALINNE. Mr google says a whole lot more about obsidian but the word
quartz does not show up.
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Bwana_John
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And I suppose Mr Google is a Petrologist.
Sometimes Mr Google explains things so the"ignorant masses" can understand the general concept. I wouldn't get in the habit of quoting him.
Amorphous obsidian is unstable at the earths surface, with exposure to surface conditions xtls of SiO2 start to form. (there is no obsidian older than
30 Ma.)
SiO2 is silicon dioxide, and in the xtl form is also known as quartz. There are other polymorphs of SiO2 (cristobalite, tridymite, coestite,
stishovite) but they are not stable under surface conditions.
You might not be able to see them (hence the "crypto" label) but they are there and they will grow with time.
Again the size of the xtls, and ratio of silicates to other minerals are slightly different and methods of formation very different but the basic
building blocks for the materials used to make most stone projectile points are very similar (obsidian is ~70% silicates)
[Edited on 5-25-2010 by Bwana_John]
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Osprey
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Yeah, I got it, no more Mr. google for me. Thanks
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shari
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It would be interesting to date the projectile points from our driveway...are they a couple hundred or thousand years old? wonder how much it costs to
date a sample....I'm hoping a student might want to come and check out the site.
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Pompano
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Megladon tooth
Interesting thread indeed. Got us to wondering if this megladon tooth is older that we had first thought? Mi amigo found it in on a walk
near his home north of San Jose del Cabo.
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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Osprey
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Shari, here's a link that may help narrow things down a little. See Don Laylander's notes (an expert on Baja Indians). The Yuman language is thought
to have broken up (indicating dispersal, migration) about 2500 ybp and developed into the 3 big Indian groups of Baja, Guaycura, Cochimis and Pericu
(and a host of others). Since there were multiple groups/migrations all up and down the peninsula the padernales are likely to be from 3,000 years to
the 1800s. http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/baja.html
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wilderone
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"wonder how much it costs to date a sample"
It is very difficult to take a rock artifact and date its time of manufacture (by humans) by istelf, without more to put it in a perspective of
relative understanding. That is because the rock itself, which would be subject to the dating sciences, isn't what you're wanting to know. The most
valuable circumstance is finding it in situ, and then discovering more in the immediate area which can be dated by Potassium-argon dating (found
between layers); carbon 14 dating; aspartic acid racemization; dendrochronolgoy; or thermoluminescence; stratigraphy, obsidian hydration, glacial
varve chronology, fission-track dating, and flourine method. For instance, if you found the point in a midden, along with bones of animals, some
charcoal and pot sherds, those bones, charcoal and pot sherds can be dated and the projectile point would be assumed to be of the same age. Once that
is established and you find another point of the same style, same material in a locaiton which can be assumed to be of the same culture, you can make
a reasonably certain assumption based on the point alone. Knowing what is already available regarding the study, science, dating of indigenous
habitation will get you started. Some factors that obscure dating of artifacts and determination of their creators, are the fact that over thousands
of years, people have come and gone, repeatedly selecting a region for habitation due to its obvious appeal - source of water, flat, flora/fauna for
food sources, and shelter. Points have even been found and re-worked by subsequent cultures. So it becomes even more important to see an artifact in
the big picture sense, and knowing what you're looking at, to help with dating.
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Bwana_John
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| Quote: |
It is very difficult to take a rock artifact and date its time of manufacture (by humans) by istelf, without more to put it in a perspective of
relative understanding
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Actually if the rock is obsidian it is very easy and cheap to date artifacts using obsidian hydration.
Because obsidian is unstable under surface conditions it absorbs water (from the outside in).
When the artifact is worked a fresh surface is exposed and starts to hydrate at a known rate.
The ouside "ring" of hydrated obsidian is measured and a date of manufacture is calculated.
It is destructive to the artifact, however.
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Bwana_John
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| Quote: |
It would be interesting to date the projectile points from our driveway...I'm hoping a student might want to come and check out the site.
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Shari,
First of all, you do NOT want a real dig in your driveway. 
Second, you and Juan have messed everything up for at least 1 meter deep. That information is too scrambled to do much good. 
If you want to get someone interested find a sight undisturbed by recent man that also has had little natural erosion or deposition either. 
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bajalera
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All this detailed info from guys who know what they're talking about--what a great thread!
(But I do like the idea of Mr. Google being a Petrologist.)
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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Cypress
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Yep!
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astrobaja
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I agree quite a bit of interest in this sort of thing!! I'm wondering if with a trained eye anything could be estimated (given climate ie very dry
and little rain) by looking at wear on the worked edges where the knapping has occured? Some of the tools we found have very little patina and have
sharp edges still whereas others have a quite worn look. All appear to be the same type of rock....
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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wilderone
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This is very interesting - points from the Guerrero Negro and Laguna Manuela areas. Says could be as old as the middle archaic times - due to
reoccupation of same region (mid-archaic is 3500 to 1200 BP (before present)). Also says the obsidian is from the valle del azufre deposit.
http://www.pcas.org/Vol34N4/4Ritter.pdf
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wilderone
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good research articles here - probably have to order archived publications:
http://www.pcas.org/documents/PreviousArticles.pdf
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Pompano
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 (centimeter scale)
What looks to be a multipurpose chopping tool, between 13,000 to 15,000 years old, found near Walker, Minn.
What appear to be crude stone tools may provide evidence that people lived in Minnesota 13,000 to 15,000 years ago.
In 2007, archaeologists in the northern Minnesota town of Walker dug up the items, which appear to be beveled scrapers, choppers, a crude knife and
several flakes that could have been used for cutting.
Several experts agreed it is possible people were in Minnesota that long ago.
There is an increasing body of science that there were stone stools and people here in that time period in North America. The long-accepted theory was
that people first arrived in the Western Hemisphere 11,200 years ago — corresponding with the age of arrowheads found in the 1930s near Clovis, N.M. —
via a land bridge from Asia over what is now the Bering Strait.
But a consensus is emerging that some humans arrived thousands of years earlier, even if scientists disagree on just how much earlier. And several
agreed that if the Minnesota objects do turn out to be 13,000- to 15,000-year-old tools, they'd be among the oldest human artifacts ever found in
North America. If this was the case, it is an easy transition to imagine the early visits to Baja.
That's why the local archaeologists are hoping to get back into the Minnesota site after this winter, and hope to work out a way with the city of
Walker to preserve it for sometime in the future when more advanced testing methods might be available...for ALL of North America.
Once it's gone it's gone...we're looking at absolutely irreplaceable links in human history here. Once it's gone there's no retrieving it.
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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