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bajalera
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Primitive People [ long and also boring]
As Europeans traveled the rest of the world during the Age of Discovery, they occasionally met people like those of Baja California, whose
technologies could be judged as woefully inadequate when compared to their own.
A view that prevailed in the 1600s was expresssed by philosopher Thomas Hobbes, who described primitive people as living "in continual fear and
danger of violent death; and the life of man solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."
Still, the existence of such groups needed to be explained, and the Bible (which failed to mention the American continents) could no longer be
trusted as a reliable record of world history.
One explanation for the low-tech state of primitive groups was the theory that initially there had been a single civilization consisting of white
people. But after God demolishied the Tower of Babel and created races that spoke different languages, they could no longer communicate with one
another and went their separate ways.
Some groups gradually drifted downhill into a state of savagery.
An alternative belief held that all humans strive to reach perfection, and races differ in their ability to get there.
Europeans--who had benefited from the advances in shipbuilding, navigation, weaponry and manufacturing that had been passed down to them from
previous civilizations--had no problem identifying themselves as the most intelligent and progressive beings the wolrld had ever seen.
With the gradual amassing of detailed data on various human societies, an orderly game plan was devised:
All human groups start out as Primitive, and pass through three stages of Savagery (lower, middle, upper), then through the lower, middle and
upper stages of Barbarism, before finally---ta-DAH!---arriving at Civilization.
Each level was assigned its own specific traits, and it was assumed that advances in technology brought about higher moral standards.
The dominant figure of primitive hunting-and-gathering groups was portrayed as Man the Hunter, who was usually pictured brandishing a spear at a
mastodon that tolwered above him in an attack mode.
As anthropology, geography and psychology became accepted as separate fields of study, theories accounting for human differences were influenced
by the writings of Charles Darwin, Karl Marx, Sigmund Freud and many other serious thinkers whose names are less familiar.
Fast-forward to 1966, when 75 anthropologists from all over the world met at a conference in Chicago, at which it was established that Man the
Hunter had been accompanied by a significant other--Woman the Gatherer--whose existence had previously been ignored.
Evidence was presented that the plants and small animals collected and processed mainly by women were more important in the hunter-gatherer diet
than the larger game provided by the men. (Although "gatherer-hunter" would obviously be a more appropriate name, it's a bit late for a change.)
Whatever the level of their technological achievements may be, all hunter-gatherers have been subject to the quantity and quality of the
resoources available in their region's ecosystems.
The limitations that environments place on human activities had yet to be recognized in the 1700s, however, and most of the outsiders who
encountered the Indians of the peninsula judged them to be mentally deficient as well as lazy.
******
P.S. This would have been a lot easier to read if the paragraphs had been indented, as they were when I typed them.
[Edited on 5-30-2010 by bajalera]
[Edited on 5-30-2010 by bajalera]
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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Osprey
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Well, Baegart said the Pericue were climbing cardon. He didn't mention any climbing shoes, spikes, cleates, chaps, shoes, socks or jocks so either he
left all that out or these Indians were crazier than me when I'm wasted.
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MrBillM
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Fortunately
European Culture and Technology took over and brought forth the Bounty we enjoy today.
The GOOD guys came out on top so that we could do our "Hunter-Gathering" at Vons and Walmart, along with others. The only spearing I want done on my
Steak is the guy behind the meat counter.
Hallelujah.
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Packoderm
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Here, I'll attempt to double space where the indents would otherwise be (If you fix yours by hitting enter before each indent, I'll delete
this because I'm sure I wont do it correctly.):
As Europeans traveled the rest of the world during the Age of Discovery, they occasionally met people like those of Baja California, whose
technologies could be judged as woefully inadequate when compared to their own. A view that prevailed in the 1600s was expressed by philosopher Thomas
Hobbes, who described primitive people as living "in continual fear and danger of violent death; and the life of man solitary, poor, nasty, brutish,
and short."
Still, the existence of such groups needed to be explained, and the Bible (which failed to mention the American continents) could no longer be trusted
as a reliable record of world history. One explanation for the low-tech state of primitive groups was the theory that initially there had been a
single civilization consisting of white people. But after God demolishied the Tower of Babel and created races that spoke different languages, they
could no longer communicate with one another and went their separate ways. Some groups gradually drifted downhill into a state of savagery.
An alternative belief held that all humans strive to reach perfection, and races differ in their ability to get there. Europeans--who had benefited
from the advances in shipbuilding, navigation, weaponry and manufacturing that had been passed down to them from previous civilizations--had no
problem identifying themselves as the most intelligent and progressive beings the wolrd had ever seen.
With the gradual amassing of detailed data on various human societies, an orderly game plan was devised: All human groups start out as Primitive, and
pass through three stages of Savagery (lower, middle, upper), then through the lower, middle and upper stages of Barbarism, before
finally---ta-DAH!---arriving at Civilization.
Each level was assigned its own specific traits, and it was assumed that advances in technology brought about higher moral standards. The dominant
figure of primitive hunting-and-gathering groups was portrayed as Man the Hunter, who was usually pictured brandishing a spear at a mastodon that
towered above him in an attack mode.
As anthropology, geography and psychology became accepted as separate fields of study, theories accounting for human differences were influenced by
the writings of Charles Darwin, Karl Marx, Sigmund Freud and many other serious thinkers whose names are less familiar.
Fast-forward to 1966, when 75 anthropologists from all over the world met at a conference in Chicago, at which it was established that Man the Hunter
had been accompanied by a significant other--Woman the Gatherer--whose existence had previously been ignored. Evidence was presented that the plants
and small animals collected and processed mainly by women were more important in the hunter-gatherer diet than the larger game provided by the men.
(Although "gatherer-hunter" would obviously be a more appropriate name, it's a bit late for a change.)
Whatever the level of their technological achievements may be, all hunter-gatherers have been subject to the quantity and quality of the resources
available in their region's ecosystems. The limitations that environments place on human activities had yet to be recognized in the 1700s, however,
and most of the outsiders who encountered the Indians of the peninsula judged them to be mentally deficient as well as lazy.
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Cypress
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Climbing cardon? Baegart just stretched the truth till it snapped.
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Packoderm
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Climbing cardon? Baegart just stretched the truth till it snapped. |
"One explanation for the low-tech state of primitive groups was the theory that initially there had been a single civilization consisting of white
people. But after God demolished the Tower of Babel and created races that spoke different languages, they could no longer communicate with one
another and went their separate ways. Some groups gradually drifted downhill into a state of savagery."
Is this the part you don't believe?
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Cypress
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Packoderm, Sometimes I just don't know what to believe.
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Iflyfish
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My Mormon friend tells me Jesus came over to the New World after doing his thing in the Middle East. The Haida say we came out of the ocean on the
back of a turtle and the Hopi say it was on a spider coming out of the Kiva. Go figure. Christians, Jews and Muslims believe in some dust being blown
on to become human.
Ethnocentricity does seem to be the prime directive for all cultures, we humans, them, not so much. Throw in a good dose of religion to sweeten the
pot and you have good/bad people, saved and unsaved people, more them and us. Primitive/Civilized seem to be permutations of this way of viewing or
generating reality.
The Buddhas view was that grasping on to any of those views and identities will cause you a lot of pain and suffering.
Iflyfish
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Eli
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Mood: Some times Observing, sometimes Oblivious.
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Thanks Lera, I thought that was very interesting.
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Skipjack Joe
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Yes, I enjoyed it also.
Could you clarify the difference between Savagery and Barbarism. That is, how the anthropologists saw it when they came up with the 3 stages.
Regarding why europeans came out on top - this is a good read:
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wilderone
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"...most of the outsiders who encountered the Indians of the peninsula judged them to be mentally deficient as well as lazy."
The "outsiders" - the Spaniards? Those rapists, murderers? the Spaniards who kidnapped and enslaved indigenous wherever they went? From the words of
a kidnapped West Indies islander, "I know the waves caress our shore, once and again an ancient rhythm by which my people breathed. What our world
was, how we saw life, how we lived by our heart, by the belly-button of belonging and thememory of ancient teachings-this from my blood and my heart,
it seems, the friar does not ehar. I know what we had, the personality of our people that was like a gentle breeze, ....
Who are the Europeans to judge what they know nothing about? The Portugese and Spanish explorers wanted riches and glory for themselves, funded by
their rulers who wanted the same. They were the ones who killed, stole, destroyed. They were the ignorant savages.
Christopher Columbus was a murderer and the USA should certainly not dedicate a day in his honor.
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Ethnocentricity does seem to be the prime directive for all cultures, we humans, them, not so much. Throw in a good dose of religion to sweeten the
pot and you have good/bad people, saved and unsaved people, more them and us. Primitive/Civilized seem to be permutations of this way of viewing or
generating reality.
The Buddhas view was that grasping on to any of those views and identities will cause you a lot of pain and suffering.
Iflyfish |
Your statements are very interesting. One of the first things I thought about when reading what Bajalera wrote was how some of the Asian Cultures
viewed the Europeans at that time.
And while I have often viewed ethnocentricity as the cause of so many of the problems in history and today, I never really thought about it being the
prime directive for all cultures. I need to ponder that one --- prime directive is an interesting concept. Thanks.
Bajalera---not boring AT ALL. I laughed as I remember when they suddenly decided that Man the Hunter was not alone. Thanks for the post. It is
interesting to read, think about, and agree, and or disagree.
Reading it again.
DianaT
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wilderone
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I'm reading an interesting book now titled "The Columbus Exchange - Biological and Cultural Consequences of 1492." Here's an excerpt:
A sensational preview of the impact that Old World livestock would have on the American mainland took place in Espanola and, shortly after, in the
other Antilles. One who watched the Caribbean islands from outer psace during the years from 1492 to 1550 or so might have surmised that the object
of the game going on there was to repalce the people with pigs, dogs and cattle. Disease and ruthless exploitation had, for all practical purposes,
destroyed the aborigines of Espanola by the 1520's. Their Arawak brothers in Cuba, Puerto Rico and Jaimaica followed them into oblivion shortly
after. The Bahamas and Lesser Antilles were not occupied by the Spanish, but as the Indians of the larger islands disappeared, slavers sailed out to
the smaller islands, spread disease and seized multitude of Arawaks and Caribs to feed in the death camps that Espanola, Cuba, Puerto Rico and
Jaimaica had become. Thus, within a few score years of Columbus's first American landfall, the Antillean aborigines had been almost completely
eliminated."
The whole book is a real eye-opener on how seeds, plants, trees, animals - cattle, pigs, horses - forever changed landscapes and agriculture
throughout the world. I can only ponder what might have been otherwise, if the Spanish explorers chose to have some respect for those they
encountered. The Spanish and Portugese of the time were not "civilized" in my opinion.
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Iflyfish
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Diana T
Would you elaborate on "Asian Cultures viewed the Europeans at that time". This is the other side of the mirror.
The concept of "Prime Directive" comes from that fascinating Anthropology body of work called "Star Trek"
I don’t find this thread boring at all. In fact I think it gets to the heart of what for many of us is one of the underlying motivations for travel.
“Who is the other?”
For an interesting twist on this I would recommend:
The Botany of Desire 
This is a book about how plants have manipulated man into furthering their differentiation and dispersal.
Don't want to hijack this fascinating thread, just another perspective on it.
Pigmentocracy is another construct that has influenced our views of “the other”. This may be a fruitful topic for yet another thread.
Iflyfish
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Diana T
Would you elaborate on "Asian Cultures viewed the Europeans at that time". This is the other side of the mirror.
The concept of "Prime Directive" comes from that fascinating Anthropology body of work called "Star Trek"
I don’t find this thread boring at all. In fact I think it gets to the heart of what for many of us is one of the underlying motivations for travel.
“Who is the other?”
For an interesting twist on this I would recommend:
The Botany of Desire
This is a book about how plants have manipulated man into furthering their differentiation and dispersal.
Don't want to hijack this fascinating thread, just another perspective on it.
Pigmentocracy is another construct that has influenced our views of “the other”. This may be a fruitful topic for yet another thread.
Iflyfish |
Since I am not a Trekky (sp)---I missed that concept in my education.
Guess I need to expand my horizons.
I really should not have used the term Asian Cultures because that is somewhat like saying they are all the same----just like many lump together all
the cultures from Mexico to Tierra del Fuego and they are all so different.
What I had in mind when I wrote that were China and Japan, which are VERY different cultures. But neither one of those cultures thought much of the
Europeans back then in terms of culture. It was that same ethnocentric concept.
Think I would like that book you suggest---sounds like another interesting slant on things.
[Edited on 5-31-2010 by DianaT]
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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Interesting topic for sure that touches the heart of many of us who question the history books and enjoy learning about other cultures both past and
present.
I once read a fascinating book called the "Descent of Woman" that really opened my eyes to women's role in the history of evolution....
but my favorite all time creation story was told to me by an elder woman of the Clayoquat tribe on northern Vancouver Island....it goes something like
this....and I cant remember the beginning of it but the Creator put women on the sweet earth but she became lonely so she decided to create a boy
which she did by blowing snot into a clam shell...which grew into man...there are many carvings and painting with a baby boy in a clam shell and they
call it Snot Boy...really!!
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Skipjack Joe
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Once again feminism raises it's ugly head.
Too bad. It started out with much promise.
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Packoderm
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Once again feminism raises it's ugly head.
Too bad. It started out with much promise. |
It looks to me like it started out with a bit of feminism: "Evidence was presented that the plants and small animals collected and processed mainly by
women were more important in the hunter-gatherer diet than the larger game provided by the men."
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DianaT
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Wilderone, I agree with a lot of what you wrote and how you characterize the European "explorers". It was nasty business and so often the victims
were considered less than human.
The old versions of history needed to be rewritten. But with some of it has come a far too romantic view of some of the indigenous cultures. For
example, the Aztecs had quite a complicated culture that was destroyed by the Europeans. But many of the indigenous peoples of Mexico hated the
Aztecs and saw them as conquerors, brutal and nasty.
That is just a very simplified and common example, but I am sure you know what I mean, and it does not excuse the behavior of those "explorers".
It just seems that with what we like to call "advanced" culture comes war and brutality---with all of them. And the term "advanced" is one of those
questionable labels.
And while I have always enjoyed studying different religions, they all do seem to have a few things in common----a simple explanation of creation, an
innate superiority, something to cling to for simple answers, and far too much intolerance----a recipe for disaster. ( That was just another way of
saying what IFYFISH said.)
Then there is always the question about the clash of cultures as to if it was inevitable, if anything is inevitable. And with just a simple contact,
so often the diseases arrived before the people.
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Iflyfish
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"The old versions of history needed to be rewritten. But with some of it has come a far too romantic view of some of the indigenous cultures" Diane T.
You have cited historical facts about the Aztecs; few know that the Haida of the Queen Charlotte Islands slaved all the way down the west coast North
America as far as San Francisco Bay. The description of early life as brutish for most is in my view an accurate portrayal of early life from the
comfort of my easy chair, sitting behind insulated glass windows, sipping my morning coffee out of a porcelain cup and tryping on my laptop.
I suspect that in all cultures there have been a few prescient, intelligent, far sighted people who had a positive influence on the quality of life.
However there is the concept of the bell shaped curve and those few may have occupied one of that narrow areas in that bell curve with most somewhere
in the middle.
It would appear that human beings are by nature genocidal if one looks at our history with ethnocentrism and hubris playing a very large roll in all
of this. Might makes right and we fight “with god on our side”.
Feminism? The comments seem descriptive to me and counter a commonly held belief that the hunting of men provided most of the nutrition for tribes. It
appears that meat may have played a smaller role in the diet of our ancestors than we had previously thought.
Is it possible that most of the history that we read has a sexual bias toward men who have been the physically stronger of the sexes and have had the
better weapons? Is there a bone in our own nose that we cannot see in regard to this issue?
As to the snot business, I laughed my burro off on that one! Seems in many ways a less brutal genesis than thoracic surgery! Humans are it seems
eminently creative in the generation of mythology.
Pass a Pacifico please, this is getting interesting.
Iflyfish
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