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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
It would appear that human beings are by nature genocidal if one looks at our history with ethnocentrism and hubris playing a very large roll in all
of this. Might makes right and we fight “with god on our side”.
Iflyfish |
While I might agree with Watts, (not Watts, ERIC HOFFER) but not completely, that most people do things strictly out of their own self-interest and
one might extrapolate that idea to a society as a whole, and I definitely agree that all wars are fought "with god on our side", genocidal seems
quite strong----um another thought to ponder.
Pondering..........
Yikes---edit to change the name from Watts to Hoffer---quite a HORRIBLE mistake--- one of those brain burps!
[Edited on 5-31-2010 by DianaT]
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Iflyfish
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Skipjack
Great question regarding Savagery and Barbarism. I found the following Cross Cultural Analysis site, interesting stuff. Anthropology is not my primary
area of expertise but I have always been interested in what it has to offer to our understanding of human beings and how we got to where we are.
http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/Faculty/murphy/crosscut.htm
I think that this way of thinking, organizing reality, comes out of the Aristotelian method of breaking down into parts that which is observed and
coming up with some sort of naming system. Since the name ain’t the thing and comparisons are inherent in this way of viewing things this sort of
value laden language may be inevitable?? This way of understanding things contrasts with Eastern Philosophies that do not separate the thing from its
context, if that makes any sense. The Western view is reductionist and the Eastern view contextual. These are very different ways of viewing the
world. I suspect that most cultures throughout our history as a species experienced the world in this Eastern way of seeing things and the advent of
Aristotelian logic being a branching point in our perception of how the world is organized and works.
Heraclites, another Greek philosopher, saw the world in “flux” and may have been more of the mind of the Eastern philosophers. Aristotle won and now
we have generated a bacterium out of whole cloth.
In my reading it wasn’t till the late 1800s that the West started to again explore these notions of flux and the inevitable impact of the observer in
the field of observation. These notions were explored in the works of the German philosophers and American Transcendentalists. http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/help/co...
I think it is very difficult to name things without doing so in the context of some comparison, which leads to quickly to hierarchical thinking.
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
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Diana, do you mean Alan Watts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrLtWZzKeX8&feature=relat...
Iflyfish
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DianaT
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Yea---did not know there were all those U tubes of him---need to listen to them when I have a little more time.
I go back to him because when I was young----many moons ago, his Book, "The Book" had quite an impact on me. It was my first real exposure to
something different than the Western way of thinking. It led me to further investigation of Eastern philosophies and into the development of my own
personal spiritual beliefs---eventually ending up in the Unitarian Church-----also influenced by many other philosophers and writers.
BUT! what I wrote was a MAJOR mistake---MAJOR. I meant to say Eric Hoffer----who I also found to be very interesting.
But glad I made the mistake or I might not have found those u-tubes!
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Iflyfish
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The Book, on the taboo against knowing who your really are. Great book and influential in my thinking too.
Pass me another of those cold Pacifico's por favor.
Iflyfishwhilewaxingphilosophic
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MrBillM
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Looking Back
Is an interesting Hobby. Bad things were done to Good (and Bad) people long before anybody we know came along.
That's History and That's life. Things could have been different, but they weren't and nothing changes that.
Euro culture won out. I've enjoyed growing up and living as a result of that culture. Since there's no way of knowing what alternative events
"might" have changed that culture, it's a waste of time speculating. Enjoy what was built without guilt.
And, "Do it OUR way".
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
Is an interesting Hobby. Bad things were done to Good (and Bad) people long before anybody we know came along.
That's History and That's life. Things could have been different, but they weren't and nothing changes that.
Euro culture won out. I've enjoyed growing up and living as a result of that culture. Since there's no way of knowing what alternative events
"might" have changed that culture, it's a waste of time speculating. Enjoy what was built without guilt.
And, "Do it OUR way". |
There is a whole school of history that does focus on the what if part of history----things like how the US would be different if the railroads were
not built---that one earned someone a PHD.
In my opinion, that is a waste of time, other than for a little fun----but not that serious.
I do, however, believe that history should be looked at from lots of different perspectives---after all, there are only a few facts and the rest is
interpretation.
I would agree that one does not need to feel guilty about what happened in the past, but learning about it from other perspectives can promote greater
understanding and acceptance. Not the "what ifs", but just seeing it through a different mirror.
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MrBillM
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Loving History
It's certainly true that "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it", But I think that really applies to a point in the history of
Man quite a bit down the road from the period in discussion. The study of Primitive man (for me, anyway) holds less interest than that of the
Dinosaurs or the physical history of the earth itself.
Speaking as someone who has a (sometimes) obsessive interest in History, I simply don't have the same fascination with the History of Prehistoric,
Primitive Pre-Discovery Man and don't see where their societal interactions have much to "Teach" us today. Like their Primitive Existence, Weapons
and Tools, their societal organization was Primitive and fundamental to simply staying alive.
But, everyone has a different focus.
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Skipjack Joe
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"Woman is the niggar of the world"
So go the lyrics to a Lennon song during the heyday of feminism.
And the proportion of work by primitive man was one of the finest examples of man's enslavement of woman throughout history. But let's examine this
work allotment more carefully. Hunting to food is a lot more than that, isn't it? The hunting skills developed are the same ones used to defend your
band at night from marauding predators. The same skills used to gain territory from neighboring tribes and the same used to defend your clan from
genocide from competing tribes.
Let's fast foward 5 million years forward to the Siskiyou mountains in the winter of 2008. A family of 3 runs out of gas in a snow covered road 25
miles from hwy 5. They eat all their rations and burn their tires to create a signal fire for a hoped for rescue. After a week it becomes clear that
nobody will come to their aid. The father decides to hike out for help. His tracks follow 12 miles down a steep canyon where his frozen body is
eventually uncovered. The mother and daughter eventually are saved. We assume that there is never any doubt as to who will go seeking help. This story
is important because it shows that nothing, absolutely nothing has changed. Being a man in today's world is no different than what it had been at the
dawn of time.
You can get further examples of the role of men during the last 2 hours of the sinking of the Titanic. Women and children were always the precious
cargo of every family and it's always been the man's responsibility to keep it safe and intact.
This look at our earliest begining also shows, in my opinion, about why the argument of one culture being 'unjust' to another makes little sense. From
the begining it was never about justice but about domination or being dominated (The Sioux were in the Dakotas because they had used the US repeating
rifle to wipe out the tribe that lived there). Nationalism and patriotism are just different aspects of the same act. A war like the Civil War about
slavery is really a historic anomally.
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wilderone
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"From the begining it was never about justice but about domination or being dominated"
Regardless of the label you put on it, it's murder. And it was primarily carried out by men.
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Osprey
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Early man had it very tough. Doesn't take much imagination to see the cave groups, clans and how they were set up. The male brings home several skunks
in one week and claims that he hasn't seen a rabbit or a bear, no tracks, scat, missing berries on the bush. The female undercooks the skunk, sleeps
in another part of the cave for a few days. The male goes on a well-deserved guilt trip and picks on smaller males or those with infirmities. The clan
turns against Mr. Skunk (as he is now called) and drives him from the cave until he can find an antelope carcass with a little meat on it. He has to
outlive most of the clan to wear out the nickname and regain some semblence of self respect. I'm just saying, in the beginning we were all Jewish.
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MrBillM
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The ENTIRE History of Man
Is worthy to satisfy Curiosity, but becomes Significant and Interesting with implications to the future once the Tribal Hunter-Gatherers moved from a
daily subsistent existence and they began to use those primitive tools and weapons, along with basic fortifications, to protect their "resources"
from other tribal groups who might want to acquire it AND those groups began to venture into other lands for acquisition from still other groups whose
land, wildlife and possessions they coveted.
Thus began the Golden Age of Civilisation.
Coveting and Conquering became, and remain, THE great impetus for Giant Societal and Technological Leaps forward.
At times, a little hard on those less-advanced, but the end result has been an overall positive.
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
"From the begining it was never about justice but about domination or being dominated"
Regardless of the label you put on it, it's murder. And it was primarily carried out by men. |
Bingo----------and it continues when conditions get desparate or even too trying. Human nature remains essentially intact and the same, only being
tempered or less visible when conditions are tolerable, relatively speaking..
It is a dog eat dog world out there------but conditions elsewhere are impossible! This is why it is paramount to keep alert, and keep your powder dry,
and protect your turf any way you can. 
Barry
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Iflyfish
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I participated in a week long workshop with Warren Farrell PhD, Clinical Psychologist, San Diego author of Why Men Are The Way They Are, and first man
to serve on the board of NOW, National Organization for Women. After a week it was clear to me that the relationship between men and women is a highly
choreographed dance that both play an equal part in.
Having said that there is no doubt about the fact that women have historically had less power than men in the world outside of the family and it is
therefore necessary for women to know that they can be heard and influenced by the man they are with. This in fact is one of the significant findings
of the 24 year 2,000 couple study done by John Gottman, PhD Psychologist, from Seattle, with whom I have also trained.
I appreciate Bajalera’s starting this very stimulating thread. The bone in our own nose is the hardest one to see and sometimes gets in the way of our
perception.
Iflyfishwhilesometimesscratchingmyheadaboutthingslikethis
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Iflyfish
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Barry
"Human nature remains essentially intact and the same, only being tempered or less visible when conditions are tolerable, relatively speaking.."
Abundance requires less competition indeed and human nature does remain as it always has. It is however cooperation that got us out of the caves, and
that includes cooperation between the sexes.
Iflyfish
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Barry
"Human nature remains essentially intact and the same, only being tempered or less visible when conditions are tolerable, relatively speaking.."
Abundance requires less competition indeed and human nature does remain as it always has. It is however cooperation that got us out of the caves, and
that includes cooperation between the sexes.
Iflyfish |
Absolutely--------and I could not agree more. Include "cooperation" to my list. And beyond cooperation just between "the sexes", I would expand that
to with everybody on the planet within common sense bounderys, utilizing the other things on the "list".
Thanks for pointing that out.
Barry
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bajalera
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I just entered a fairly long post and nearly all of it somehow got deleted--Computer Magic at work. I'll try again when I have more time.
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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Barry A.
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Lera---------that is soooooooo frustrating!!!! I know.
Barry
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bajalou
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajalera
I just entered a fairly long post and nearly all of it somehow got deleted--Computer Magic at work. I'll try again when I have more time.
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I read you're last post - I think it was all there except it had about 150 blank lines in the upper middle of it. If you scrolled down far enough, it
was there. Try it again.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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MrBillM
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Extraordinary use of Primitive Tools
Recently Unearthed example of Primitive Man's tool usage ?
They apparently hit a snag due to still-to-be-developed additional technology.
Including development of the wheel.
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