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Skeet/Loreto
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To Pam.
Thank you for your Kind and Thoughtfull and Honest Words.
Sometimes it takes more than a Couple of years living with the Good people, living on the Sea of Cortez, to learn the Truth.
Skeet
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flyfishinPam
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some food for thought:
a critical look at these funders
http://www.activistcash.com/
Peninsular NGO's that are considered successful are funded by big money like-
Walton Family Foundation (wall mart family, becoming a HUGE presence in La Paz and the entire peninsula)
Marisla Foundation (getty oil)
David and Lucille Packard Foundation (founders of HP)
do these entities really have a clue what the people need?
think of the song "Money" by Pink Floyd as you peruse through the websites of the do-gooder NGO's and also notice how VAGUE THEIR INFORMATION IS!
The vagueness is deliberate:
they don't want you to know where their operating money comes from
they don't want you to see how little they actually do
they don't want you to know how they involve themselves directly in GOVERNMENT
Hey aren't these called "Non Governmental Organizations"?
How can they call themselves non governmental when they staff ex-bureaucrats in a revolving door system and collaborate with the government so as to
make them "look good" to the people they hurt?
good questions that should be asked and addressed, and more
what I have seen in such a short time behind the scenes of NGO's in Mexico is this:
we the citizens have constitutional and legal rights and if we organize ourselves and learn and pressure our representatives then we will be able to
live by these rights and we will be able to direct our representatives and the government entities so that we can directly benefit. its a long
process but I have noticed that the people here are persistent and patient. eventually we can apply for these government funds and compete with the
NGO's for the same! So what good are these NGO's really? Basically we will make happen what we demand to happen and we can remain independent and
strong.
NGO's want us to be dependent on them so that they can continue getting funds which are filtered through their organizations (revolving door staffing,
nepotism, control, and TAX SHELTERS for the rich) and in fact very little goes towards the people they claim to help. This is wrong! I have seen
this first hand and I am only starting to speak out against it but this needs to be considered.
Don Skeet you are a real man please don't quit posting or be frustrated by those who claim to know but don't really understand it is not their fault.
I had to learn for myself I was wrong but I still gotta survive like my compaņeros we support each other and its genuine and more powerful.
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Skipjack Joe
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As I read this, Pam, you are left with a choice of poor science and money agendas or no science and money agendas.
It would be helpful if you were more specific about the poor science and who and how money was being used to get around it.
But you and Skeet really don't see eye to eye on this matter. You want good science and no money agendas and Skeet wants to keep science out of it
entirely, a sort of common sense self regulation.
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flyfishinPam
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Be specific, well I don't have that much time but you can easily look into this for yourself with google or another search engine and that's just the
start. If you really want to investigate then start asking specific questions to your favorite NGO and derive your own conclusions.
I don't want to make anyone's mind up but I did want to point out that Skeet speaks the truth.
I wish to help the people and I am disgusted at how our human classification of endangered species and other fears are used to control how the people
live. Mexico has really good laws in place already and if those are enforced then we would have little need for more laws.
If you want to read a scientific paper critically the first thing you should do is find out who funded the study. I worked in research and obviously
we couldn't carry out investigations without money, so this is what drives everything. When results are found that are not the desired results for
those who are paying for the work, then the study is either discontinued or never published. This is one way the truth is censored.
Supposedly homo sapiens is the "most advanced" creature to have ever evolved on earth. How can this be if we don't take care of each other
and we place a higher importance on paper and metal than we do on each other? If anyone has ever studied population biology they can relate the
scenario of what overpopulation of a species does to that species and those species in contact with it. So how can we have the audacity to think that
just because we're human that we can evade the inevitable? Species evolve and species become extinct we are no different and no amount of paper or
metal will change that. Our problem and the reason that we too will fall to the outcome of population biology, are our inherent faults. If we can
enjoy life and truly love each other as we respect that which is around us without trying to control others, then we as a species will live on, but
this is a pipe dream.
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Skeet/Loreto
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No Joe: You are not correct in your statement.
What I want is accruate and complete and Honest Science!!
What bothers me is some of the people Teaching and doing the So-called Science has never been out of the Class Room or Lab. They have no Idea of some
of the things that they are claiming.
They are claiming theses things to get money donated so that they may do other things,
I have a Challenge of anyone with Balls;
Take a year go live at San Nicholas and go out 5 miles to Delefonso Island, snorkel and dive, observe the Winds and currents and fish and birds and
come back an give an accruate report.
Joe: If you want an example of Poor Science go read the Klamath River Fiasco a few years ago.
Another is the Snail Darter thing probably before you were born.
The problem is that the Cheaters, Liars, and Theives are finally being caught up with and challenged.
Pam came to Loreto and the Sea of Cortez several years ago and as she has spoken she has learned the hard way about some of these People.
She knows of what she Speaks.
Skeet
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
I am disgusted at how our human classification of endangered species and other fears are used to control how the people live.
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That's an interesting statement. I'm honestly curious about how these classifications have been set up to control people's lives.
| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
I worked in research and obviously we couldn't carry out investigations without money, so this is what drives everything.
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There are always strings attached to money. That's why we have a 2 party system. No single voter gets everything he wants when casts a vote for his
party. Every voter knows he's making a compromise.
All I'm trying to say is -
"Don't throw the baby out with the bath water".
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flyfishinPam
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Fair enough. But don't take my word for it just open your mind and see it for yourself.
Endangered species classifications-
when I was at school studying plant physiology we were encouraged to locate endangered species so as to restrict the rights of the owners of property
and preserve the species we found. I personally did not agree with that and never participated in it but many of my fellow classmates did...look up
"vernal pools" in northern california and you will find some of this kind of information. Armed with a microscope and electrophoresis apparatus I can
probably find novel or endemic species of plants in many many locations on this planet. Then I could document and publish the findings and start the
fight against disturbing these species. The outcome would likely include the restriction of the use of the land by its owner and/or the people who
need to access and use it. This is just one way that people can be controlled.
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Skeet/Loreto
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Very well said Pam:
Another example is the San Joaquin river in the Central Valley of Calif.
That River is now going through "Restoration" which I do beleive is a good thing as long as the Damage to Low Lying Fields can be protected.
There will be more water flowing and they are trying to keep the same amount of water going to the Land Owners while doing and completing the
Restoration.
The money is being spent{Taxes} to save some Species and they are attempting to do this without harming the Land owners or shutting them down from
raising Crops{Food}.
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
... we were encouraged to locate endangered species so as to restrict the rights of the owners of property and preserve the species we found....
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I think you have it the other way around. Endangered species are sought because of their plight and the land, at times, is set aside to stop them from
being driven to extinction. The idea that school teachers instruct students to threaten land ownership seems pretty radical to me.
If I followed your line of reasoning we should stand aside and let Amazonia be ploughed under because of the individual rights of the Brazilians. That
would be insane.
So just as you have stretched my reasoning to absurdity, - so I have yours.
I will gladly agree that the Endangered Species Act is easily abused but it's absence would be wrong as well. It is a step forward, though imperfect.
------------
The way I see it you were initially upset with the Mexican authorities for not being good custodians of the Loreto fisheries and marine environment.
So you turned to environment groups to help deal with the problem. But now you're in a position where they have agendas you don't support. What is
your next step?
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Skeet/Loreto
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There was an Article in todays News regarding the disapperance of the native "Pronghorn" here in the West.
Govt. People went to the Ranchers and tried to determine their Deaths .
Have not found out why they are Dieing.
Watch what happes if a Nut Group gets onto this! They will probably claim that Texas Boy Scouts are killing them with a Slingshot.
I will follow this and will keep informed and if I find the Truth report it as such!! Please donot send me a Donation!!!
Skeet
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Skeet/Loreto
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Joe:
A good many years ago I was in Puget Sound and watched as all of the TrueCod were taken out by many , many Boats all in about 3o Days. While this took
out a Species there are plenty left and some of them coming back to the Sound.
I also watched as 50% of all Salmon was given to the Indians. I watched as the Salmon were taken completely out in places, but Alas!! Salmon is now
being rasied in growing numbers.
Is it still Endangered??
In San Nicholas in about 1972 I watched Boat after Boat take out the Sierra whcih caused the Yellowtail to go to deeper water. In the past few years
the Sierra have started returning to the San Nicholas area.
2 Years ago the Yellowwtail were in large Numbers chasing Bait as they had been 20 years before. Amberjacks were back in Schools which I had not seen
in a few Years.
The Science I would like to see is a study of the Loreto Bay Shrimp Population. What Happened?? Will the fish that fed there years ago come back or
go around the other side of Carmen Island and feed at other locations.
Is the Shrimp still there from 700 Feet Down to 1500??
No Joe. Science is fine if the People doing the reporting can be Trusted;
I think we may have to have another couple of Generations with a lot of Moral Training before we can get anyone to report their findings in a
Truthful, Factual Way.
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Skipjack Joe
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Skeet, if you don't trust you'll never believe.
You've hit a dead end.
Scientists are by and large very honest people that deal with reproducible data. It's the readers who pick and choose the information they want. And
ignore the rest.
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flyfishinPam
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Well I have observed strong independent self sufficient people being displaced from the locations that they have relied upon for generations all in
the name of "sustainability", "protected areas", and "resource management", armed with scientific studies that are of questionable duplicity. Good
science can be repeated by another investigator and thus proven and strengthened, much of the science used to benefit the non profit industrial
complex cannot be repeated and in my opinion that would make it invalid.
I am fine with people accepting changes based on the protection of their environment but I am not fine when they are duped into believing the above by
people who descend on them from the outside claiming to know everything. This is a third world country and formal education in many places is lacking
but that does not mean the people are not intelligent. When one has a titulo in front of their name they are unconditionally respected and considered
experts in everything almost immediately. This is dangerous. This is just another type of imperialism, eco-imperialism.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
--------
The way I see it you were initially upset with the Mexican authorities for not being good custodians of the Loreto fisheries and marine environment.
So you turned to environment groups to help deal with the problem. But now you're in a position where they have agendas you don't support. What is
your next step? |
fair question. the next step is to have discussions with my friends and colleagues my compaņeros where we can determine what we have and how we can
make it better and protect it and to not so blindly follow those who are willing to create dependents out of us. NGO's are not going away either are
the authorities but I say we use them to our advantage and make them work for us as they claim they already do.
I'm not saying we shouldn't protect endangered species but do it in your own country or become a citizen of this one then enter the process and go to
battle. The fact is that the first world countries out of control consumerism is the cause of the demise of natural resources throughout the world
and furthering the endangerment of the endangered species. This is the case ad it is truth, then why should first world countries determine how the
third world people have to live and restrict their freedoms? So perhaps the best way to save endangered species and protect areas is to truly change
the way we live.
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Skeet/Loreto
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Joe:
I Trust what I see, hear, and feel not what some Science person says :This is the way it is". Then cannot prove it.
Look at the Huge Fiasco of Global Warming". Look at the Errors that are finally coming out!
No Joe I beleive in the Supreme Being, Nature and the Survival of the Fitist!
I do not think that by and Large they are an Honest group of People. I think they have been misled by a large group of certain types of College
Teachers and Groups. I think it may be just part of the Changing Generation that will have to be corrected in the years to come.
I Trust that the Sea of Cortez is not Ruined!
I trust that is does not make any difference if an Endangered Species is gone. Did the Snail Darter chnage your Life??
What Species that has gone away has affected your Life?. Please Name them.
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flyfishinPam
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
... we were encouraged to locate endangered species so as to restrict the rights of the owners of property and preserve the species we found....
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I think you have it the other way around. Endangered species are sought because of their plight and the land, at times, is set aside to stop them from
being driven to extinction. The idea that school teachers instruct students to threaten land ownership seems pretty radical to me. ?
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I just want to clarify your question so that my words are interpreted correctly. There were never any threats to "land ownership" but there were
threats and very real actions regarding land usage.
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Skeet/Loreto
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Joe: If you can answer this One question it will tell us a :Lot about your ideas.
Do you think Ward Churchill should have been teaching???
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Look at the Huge Fiasco of Global Warming". Look at the Errors that are finally coming out! |
Global Warming is no fiasco.
The fiasco is the ping pong that American politics are playing with the facts.
Please state your thoughts, Pam. Is Global Warming a hoax?
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
I Trust that the Sea of Cortez is not Ruined!
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I don't know what you mean by ruined. Ruined means destroyed. As long as species haven't been wiped out they will bounce back given a chance. The Sea
of Cortez is a pale shadow of what it once was. And that new road into Gonzaga will make it paler as the fish populations will be driven down to the
levels at San Felipe.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
I trust that is does not make any difference if an Endangered Species is gone. Did the Snail Darter chnage your Life??
What Species that has gone away has affected your Life?. Please Name them. |
It's not about me and it's not about you.
A creature's right to life is not about it's usefulness to mankind.
Most of people these day's don't share the Biblical viewpoint that creatures are here to serve man.
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I'm always careful in putting out my opinions on this board because people often agree with statements due to friendship. So I never know whether
someone is actually stating their values or simply supporting a friendship.
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flyfishinPam
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Thank you Joe and Skeet (and the rest) for making me think. I am sorry that I can't possibly convey every single thing that formulates my opinions
but I must say that my opinions are a dynamic and ever-evolving paradigm. I have changed my mind on many things throughout life but I have done so
after learning or seeing first hand about more facts regarding the topic of each of these opinions. Everyone is probably like this as we all have the
right to change our mind for one reason or another. Lets not be divided and conquered, discussion is good and healthy. Peace.
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Cypress
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The Sea of Cortez isn't destroyed. There's plenty of life there in spite of the hooka divers, gill nets, purse nets, long lines, and bottom trawlers.
They only have to be smaller than the diameter of the nets. Little tiny critters running for their lives. Ward Churchill? He's just a liberal college
prof without a clue.  
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Skipjack Joe
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Third world vs First
Pam,
Brazil is telling us that since we clearcut our eastern forests entirely from the eastern seaboard to the Mississippi they should have the same right
with Amazonia. The North American deciduous forests were once a solid continuous mass through half of the country. But the situation is different in
the 21 century than it was in the 17th. The planet is smaller now. Nobody gets a free pass anymore. It's not about them vs us. We're in this together.
Borders don't matter. Everyone has the right to point at everyone.
It's kind of like second hand smoke. You have the right to be in a smoke free room. It's not like letting the person smoke at the next table because
he's not right next to you.
That, I believe, is where things are going.
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