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Author: Subject: Turtle egg harvesting. Wrong!
flyfishinPam
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[*] posted on 11-7-2010 at 03:03 PM


Nah, the SCO is not destroyed, just severely damaged. Grant permits to the traditional fishermen and regionalize them. Maintain a strict monitoring system and place temporary restrictions where necessary. Those who directly live from the resource will protect them preventing any endangered species from becoming extinct. The real, genuine people who live directly from those resources will naturally protect them and biologically this relationship will take on a symbioticism. This is the law of nature. A parasite knows better than to kill its host. This I have learned from the "uneducated" fishermen. Its when paper and metals start to predominate that all goes to hell. I dunno...I just make up this stuff as I go along.
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flyfishinPam
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[*] posted on 11-7-2010 at 03:11 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Pam,

Brazil is telling us that since we clearcut our eastern forests entirely from the eastern seaboard to the Mississippi they should have the same right with Amazonia. The North American deciduous forests were once a solid continuous mass through half of the country. But the situation is different in the 21 century than it was in the 17th. The planet is smaller now. Nobody gets a free pass anymore. It's not about them vs us. We're in this together. Borders don't matter. Everyone has the right to point at everyone.

It's kind of like second hand smoke. You have the right to be in a smoke free room. It's not like letting the person smoke at the next table because he's not right next to you.

That, I believe, is where things are going.


I am curious. So now that Brazil wants the USA to stop deforestation will this happen up there? Will east of the Mississippi now have to restore all that wood? I'm from the northeast and was told that a squirrel could have made its way from Louisana all the way to Maine by hopping from tree to tree and never having to touch the ground. Why I wasn't there to actually SEE this happen I consider the source and form my own opinion. So wouldn't it be great if Brazil came up to the USA and started telling you how to live?

Somehow I can't see that happening. Sounds something like all the guns in Mexico being blamed on the second ammendment of the USA and Mexico, a soverign nation coming up trying to change it.

Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

i dunno I just make this stuff as I go along
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flyfishinPam
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[*] posted on 11-7-2010 at 03:24 PM


hmmm again thanks for making me think but now I can't stop thinking so I'd better take a break.

I will ponder at how much CO2 could have been consumed IF those United States Eastern forests had not been downed. I will wonder if that forest was truly the lungs of the planet and be saddened at how we only have one lung left so we'll have to save it. I will also wonder too at how much toxic gas goes into the air on a daily basis from a certain foreign country who doesn't want to acknowledge the Kyoto deal or the Copenhagen fiesta...who will pay and who is at risk. Then I will break bread with my family and have some laffs. If the dinosaurs didn't become extinct would man have ever evolved? How do Carbon credits really work and is there a standardized calculation? If plants inhale CO2 and emit O2 in light and they do the opposite in the dark then shouldn't we leave our lights on so that they can avoid absorbing the far red light and go into their dark phase? You know that phase where the plant emits....CO2? What if my aunt Juanita had balls would she have been names Juan if my grandparents just liked the name and didn't pass it down? And what the hell was that thing that put me down sitting on the deck yesterday then broke me off? it broke off a guy in another boat and my captain too!
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Skeet/Loreto
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[*] posted on 11-7-2010 at 03:38 PM


Joe:

Global Warming is a Fiasco!!!
It is the Natrual Change in the Weather around the Globe which was taken on by the Nut Al Gore and made into a "Scary Thing" in an Attempt to Control People!!

There is no Proffe. It is a Natrual Change.


The Sea of Cortez goes trought changes that sometimes take years to change back.
At the time 80 to 90 Fishing Boats were going out of Loreto each Morning and lots of Fish were being Caught, everybody talking about.

Now there are very few Fisherman going out so there are not that many fish to report. Another thing is that many of the fisherman are going back to a GPS Spot time and again, reporting No fish. They do not realize that the fish are moving on them.
Look at the reports by Bill Earhart both at Loreto and the pacific Side.
You should go and spend a year on the Sea of Cortez and come back with an Honest Report.

Tell me What Species has been eliminated from the Sea Of Cortez??
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Cypress
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[*] posted on 11-7-2010 at 03:40 PM


That thing was a fish! A big fish, something that is no longer common in the Sea of Cortez.
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Skeet/Loreto
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[*] posted on 11-7-2010 at 04:34 PM


Big Fish No longer common in the Sea of Cortez? Ha Ha!

Tell that to Earhart.
Or to me when two and a Half Months ago I pulled my Three 27 Lb. Yellowtails within 5 miles of Loreto Marina. I do it everytime I go down just to see if the fish are still there. Eat One, Alvarro gets the other two for his family{5 Grand Kids}
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Cypress
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[*] posted on 11-7-2010 at 04:47 PM


So now a 27 lb. fish is big. That's what I'm saying!;)
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baitcast
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[*] posted on 11-7-2010 at 05:12 PM


Cypress I don,t remember you ever mentioning getting one 27#YT let alone three,if you did pray tell where ?

The last time you made a report was a while back,and you told about strip bait and triggerfish:rolleyes: just had to mention it. Rob




Anyone can catch fish in a boat but only \"El Pescador Grande\" can get them from the beach.

I hope when my time comes the old man will let me bring my rod and the water will be warm and clear.
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[*] posted on 11-7-2010 at 05:15 PM


Uh hummmm


What about the turtle eggs...or is deforestation in Brazil part of that




sold out and got out !!!
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baitcast
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[*] posted on 11-7-2010 at 05:19 PM


You are right I forgot,



Anyone can catch fish in a boat but only \"El Pescador Grande\" can get them from the beach.

I hope when my time comes the old man will let me bring my rod and the water will be warm and clear.
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BajaRat
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[*] posted on 11-7-2010 at 05:21 PM


Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Talk about pearls before swine!
Every THING has its price.
In all your effort to justify being captured and taught what to believe, you now expect us to through out even the most basic principles of Physics; cause and effect.
Please tell me that even with all the poop that the commercial, profit driven and politically motivated media has attempted to sell us that you still have the common sense to realize human beings have a huge impact on this planet and all of its inhabitants. Why do you think that these commercial giants put so much effort in telling you that " Every things alright, their just telling you lies. The worlds resources are endless, eat, drink and be merry ", it's your MONEY! They don't give a crap about your dependence on those local resources. Like BPs CEO said "Gulf shrimp aren't the only shrimp in the world". Without some form of conservation effort many places around world are doomed to the same fate as the SOC, and if you think the SOC hasn't been affected by large commercial fishing operations and mega farming then you need to do more homework. Those locals will either manage the turtle resource or have it disappear and taken away from them. A life without ALL the diversity we still have and just neighbors like you would become tiresome just like this conversation. Thanks Lionel
P.S. Skeet, my Texan friends think your probably an east coast Yankee transplant :lol:
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Cypress
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[*] posted on 11-7-2010 at 05:53 PM


Yea, About that triggerfish, about all I ever caught in the Sea of Cortez, I cut my loses moved on.
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[*] posted on 11-7-2010 at 08:30 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Joe:

Global Warming is a Fiasco!!!
It is the Natrual Change in the Weather around the Globe which was taken on by the Nut Al Gore and made into a "Scary Thing" in an Attempt to Control People!


hahahaHAHAHa THIS coming from someone that admits being suckered in by religion! Hahahahahahaha
I LOVE the hilarity this site so often offers up!!!
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Skeet/Loreto
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[*] posted on 11-8-2010 at 07:13 AM


O. K. Baja Rat:

Please list the locarions of the Mega Farming and Large Commercial Operation Fishing in the Sea of Cortez.

You are such a Bull chitter;There are None!!
The last an only One of Two large Japanese Commercials Boats was gone years ago after its illegal Catch was taken away and given to the Poor People of Mexico City.

You donot know of what you Speak. Why not take a visit and see for yourself ??

Comon Rat give us the locations!!
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[*] posted on 11-8-2010 at 07:15 AM


diarro: You are so smart please answer the following.

Why does a Horse have a Tail and where did it come from???
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Skeet/Loreto
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[*] posted on 11-8-2010 at 07:52 AM


Hey Rat:

My Homework:

38 years on the Sea of Cortez
27 years on the Sea of Cortez in a Panga


Where have you been except on the Mall walking around with your Pants hanging on and listening to your Rap Tunes and Ward Churchill.
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[*] posted on 11-8-2010 at 08:06 AM


Atta boy Skeet go get em:lol:
Rob

ACLU,PETA,BLM,SIERRA Club,the original tree huggers,just to name a few of the radicals we have to deal with over the years,from beetles to bears their,s a group that wants to save them no matter the cost of jobs money and what not.

Years ago while riding the dirt bikes there was a race scheduled in the Calif.desert that was all set to go when the BLM came in and said shut it down an cancelled to whole thing.

The reason was we would tear up the flora and fauna and put the desert tortoise in danger,funny part was the area was a miltary gunnery range where the blew the hell out of everything:lol:

The snail Darter of Tenn. was a fiasco of the first degree work on a couple of dams was shut down thousands lost thier jobs who knows how much money was lost in the courts where it was fought for a couple of years,all this about a little fish all three in. of him MADNESS.

Spotted Owl and the tree,s he lived in,Tree Huggers in the northwest went to war to save the trees the owl lived,so radical were they the bubby traps were set for the loggers,tree spiking being the favorite method,spikes were driven in the trees before the loggers started cutting the logger comes along startes to cut the chain saw hits the spike the logger is lucky he only loses his arm,the cutting stops the operation shuts down,the company closes it doors the lumber mill shuts its door and everone is out of work.

On and on it goes,save the trees,save the Owl,
Google the endangered species just in the US alone,there will come a time when we have to decide who goes and who stays.
I vote for us.

[Edited on 11-8-2010 by baitcast]




Anyone can catch fish in a boat but only \"El Pescador Grande\" can get them from the beach.

I hope when my time comes the old man will let me bring my rod and the water will be warm and clear.
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shari
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[*] posted on 11-8-2010 at 08:21 AM


Pam has most eloquently touched on many of the problems facing not only baja...but the world. What to do??

One thing that has contributed to the problems on the planet are people NOT living "locally"...eat local food in season, buy local, live local really makes an impact. Imagine if locals got to eat the bountiful harvest in it's own area...much of the sale & transport of species would be eliminated...trucking, jet fuel, packaging, middle men etc. We have developed an apetite for foods from other places and are paying for it.

Pam is right on about her observations of many NGO's and "scientific studies" that are only published IF they demonstrate the desired results which are not necessarily TRUE results. I have had personal experience with this as well in both mexico and canada...scientific data isnt worth a pinch of coon caca unless you carefully examine where the studies come from.

I wholeheartedly support Pam's suggestion of "Grant permits to the traditional fishermen and regionalize them. Maintain a strict monitoring system and place temporary restrictions where necessary. Those who directly live from the resource will protect them preventing any endangered species from becoming extinct. The real, genuine people who live directly from those resources will naturally protect them and biologically this relationship will take on a symbioticism. This is the law of nature. A parasite knows better than to kill its host. This I have learned from the "uneducated" fishermen."...this goes for turtle eggs too!!




for info & pics of our little paradise & whale watching info
http://www.bahiaasuncion.com/
https://www.whalemagictours.com/
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Skeet/Loreto
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[*] posted on 11-8-2010 at 08:34 AM


Very well spoken Shari!

It says a lot for the Survival of the Fitist.. People move to find Food, a better way of Life, better Weather, etc.

Just imagine the difference in the States if there had been no Slavery and the Black people had stayed in Africa.
Look at the changes since the Nam War and the very small effect the People who came to the States has been.

Look at the effect the Mesxcanos coming to the States has been.

Shari, it just weems to me that some of the Younger Generation has lost the Ability to go out and Seek the Truth about different matters.

Hope it changes for the sake of their Grandchildren.
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[*] posted on 11-8-2010 at 09:07 PM


First of all, I am an unproud owner of personally being involved in commercial fishing operations desimating and slaughtering the unwanted by-catch. Funny, really, is it funny? you talk about baggy pants and malls...I would love to dwell on the idea that you were in diapers and sucking your thumb while I was busy on my 200+ foot Portugese tuna seiner, out of San Diego in the 1980's...finning sharks, and throwing over tens of thousands of pounds of by-catch including: spinner and spotter porpoise with my US government inspector looking the other way. Please don't play Jesus when we've all shown that we have the devil inside. Am I proud of this? Hell no!!!!! I was fresh out of high school and thought tuna fishing out of San Diego would be a fantastic way to feed the world.

The baggy pants comment, you ain't got crap in your own drawers. The mall? Never my kick. Yet, I got caught and captured, taught what to believe, thinking that somehow this blue ball had inexhaustable resources. I am guilt-stricken every day to the point where I will never eat shark. The porpoise we were "protecting" will never make up for the tuna we were slaughtering.

I have spoken with commercial tunafishermen in this last decade who, in casual conversation, stated they "were doing great, catching huge fish." When I asked them what they considered huge fish, the response was "70-90 pounds" with a gleam in their eye. They were shocked to hear that in the 80s, when I was fishing south of Hawaii, 350 pound cows were the norm. This isn't something unusual, this is the what the fisheries all around the planet are describing today, other than the commercial factory ships, that look at tonnage rather than specimen size. What we are missing here is that there is a difference between indemic cultures and local fishermen, compared to indescriminant harvesting of the world's oceans.

Baggy pants. What a ridiculous excuse for a conversation. If I wore those, I'd tell ya, and I'd be proud of them. The fact is that what I've described above, I am not proud of. Baja California, since my childhood, has always been a bastion and a haven for what is possible, on a local and sustainable scale. I do not choose to live blindly. I want to live. I want my family to live. I want to get back to something that is real, sustainable, and productive. I know I made some bad choices when I was a kid, sin baggy pants :) I can't believe that would be your best defense against honest information that is painful especially when you have lived it. Senor, and all other amigos, I love all the wonderful pictures and great stories that we post here. Unfortunately, there's an underbelly and a seedy reality that exists on this planet. I am telling you first hand that this IS a reality and that the same reality is taking place in the SOC today. Please forgive me for what I have done, for I know the planet won't.

You asked about the damage being done to the SOC? To address mega farming? The very north end of the Sea of Cortez used to flow freely with navigable river waters leading into the Colorado. US policy has divided these waters amongst the southwestern states to the point that they never reach the sea. BCN farmers have had to resort to groundwater because the river flows no more. Just look at the satellite photos. Stop believing me or some A-hole's story on "it's this way" or "it's that." Times have changed, friends, and the planet is changing, and our negative impact can no longer be disputed. Species are dying at unheard of rates, including the lovely things you like to eat.

In regards to mega farming: the Sea of Cortez does not only encompass the lonely, quiet, shores of Baja California. Let's not forget the impact of the greater coast of mainland Mexico; in particular, Los Mochis, Sinaloa.
This river delta region has been feeding the United States for decades. Its pesticides, fertilizers and all other unnatural by-products are wreaking havoc on the SOC. Again, some of the most impacting realities can be seen in past and current satellite photography.

Please, don't discount the people bringing forth the realities that are adversely impacting our environment. They are only trying to do the best to save what we have left. Please, use your own judgement, study, learn. The key is to know when to make changes.
Thanks. Lionel

P.S. Please note the sites below, read, explore, and make your own decisions. These could be the most important choices in your life.

http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/science/20080318-1027-...

"SAN FELIPE, Mexico – The vaquita, a tiny stubby-nosed porpoise found only in Mexico's Sea of Cortez, is on the brink of extinction as more die each year in fishing nets than are being born, biologists say. A drop in vaquita numbers to as few as 150 from around 600 at the start of the decade could see the famously shy animal go the same way as the Chinese river dolphin, which was declared all but extinct in 2006."


http://www.earthsave.org/environment/rxenviro.htm

"FISH and MEXICO and CALIFORNIA: In December 1995, the Sacramento Bee newspaper ran a remarkable 4-part series on the devastation of the Sea of Cortez between mainland Mexico and Baja California. The Sea of Cortez is 700 miles long, 60 to 150 miles wide, and nearly twice the size of Lake Superior, and more than 300 times larger than Lake Tahoe.

Part One: Tom Knudson, "A Dying Sea," Dec 10, 1995.

¥ "This great amniotic sea, this world showcase of marine life is being destroyed. The problem is basic. It is overfishing, aided by greed, corruption, poverty and lawlessness. This is 1995, but the Gulf of California is a frontier sea where marine life is slaughtered for markets in the US and Asia, for foreign exchange and sometimes for little more than gas money."

¥ "The Sea of Cortez is more than just a dazzling spectacle of nature. It is a Pacific Caribbean for the western US. It is California's Riviera."

¥ "Gone are the huge navies of game fish that fed so savagely they forced schools of bait fish to burst out of the water--volcanoes of fish erupting into the air. Gone are the immense, slow-moving cumulus clouds of turtles, manta rays, the thick, spiraling columns of hammerhead and thresher sharks, the clams thick as cobblestones on the beach. Gone too is the future for many families who make their living from the sea."

¥ "By all accounts, the entire gulf is being utterly devastated by overfishing," said Paul Dayton, a professor of marine ecology at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla, Ca, one of the premier marine science centers in the world."

¥ "And there's something else: This is no isolated disaster. It is one spore in a larger pox, the plundering of oceans worldwide."

¥ "Catch a ride on a shrimp trawler, the sea's most destructive fishing machine. Watch the big nets scoop up tons of unwanted species, such as sea horses, starfish, manta rays and enormous quantities of baby fish. Help the crew sort out the shrimp and heave the excess overboard--dead. For every pound of shrimp caught in the Sea of Cortez, nearly 10 pounds of other marine life dies."

¥ "The world is not just losing the treasures of the Sea of Cortez. It is eating them. Fishing is supposed to be done conservatively to protect stocks. But in poverty-stricken Mexico, another rule applies: If you will buy it, they will kill it. They will liquidate their sea." And the US is the biggest buyer of Mexico's seafood.

¥ "Here the ocean was full of fish, like a smorgasbord. Now there's nothing. The gulf is exhausted." Manuel Palacio, 65, Mexican fisherman.

¥ "The damage doesn't stop at the water's edge. In some places, seabirds are fading from the sky too, apparently because there's not enough fish to eat."

Part Two: Tom Knudson, "Waste on grand scale loots sea," Dec 11, 1995.

¥ There is massive waste in commercial fishing. "It is one of the most serious environmental problems in the world," said Paul Dayton, of Scripps Institute of Oceanography in La Jolla. "And it's out of sight. Fisherman don't advertise it. People don't know what's happening."

¥ "Worldwide, more than 57 billion pounds of sea life are caught unintentionally and wasted every year, estimates the UN's Food and Agriculture Organization in Rome. That is more than 200 pounds of dead, discarded marine life for every man, woman and child in the US. It is one-quarter of all annual marine catches on Earth and more than double the entire commercial marine catch of the world's largest fishing nation, China."

¥ "By wasting so much marine life, fisherman may be literally throwing away the future."

¥ "In the Sea of Cortez, for every pound of shrimp caught, 9.7 pounds of other marine life dies. And sometimes, the ratio climbs to 40 to 1, according to people who live on the sea."

¥ The Sea of Cortez was once a place teeming with life--"a Serengeti of the sea." "It was like diving into an aquarium," says one old-timer.

¥ "The sea is a vast piece of machinery, composed of billions of moving parts. But whole segments are being stripped away before anyone knows how they work or fit into the larger whole...Species that were abundant 20 years ago are ghosts today."

Part Three: Tom Knudson, "Bribery, lawbreaking, scarce law enforcement abound," Dec 12, 1995.

¥ "Oceans everywhere are hard to police. And poaching is commonplace."

¥ "As the seas are depleted, something else is damaged, too: the human communities that depend on them...Ironically, those who suffer the greatest are those who need the sea the most--simple fishermen and their families."

Part Four: Tom Knudson, "It's not too late, and the sea itself may show the way," Dec 13, 1995.

¥ "But the biggest reason for hope has nothing to do with people. It is the Sea of Cortez itself. The sea is a recovery project waiting to happen."



http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/fishing/news/story?id=291...

http://www.cipamericas.org/archives/1367



http://www.mexconnect.com/articles/3157-overfishing-in-the-s...
"Two boats caught around 400 dorado - we watched them retrieve approximately 110 hooks and there were 53 dorado on each of them. Each boat had 5 km of longline with 600 to 700 baited hooks in the water. Multiply these numbers by the numbers of boats fishing and you suddenly have 5,000 to 10,000 small dorado being taken from Baja waters on any given day."
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