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toneart
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Thoughts about a tragedy
Nomads,
I was going to post this on the ongoing string about Carlos Fiesta & friends' plane crash and then decided to start this, a separate string. The
reason is, I didn't want to hijack that string with any possibility of a back and forth discussion regarding my thoughts.
While my thoughts were triggered by that tragedy, they originated long before now and somehow seem clearer to me now. With all due respect, this is an
idea in a larger, more general sense:
Quote:
Originally posted by The Sculpin
A bit contrarian, but why is this so sad? The guy had a zest for life. He lived life to the fullest. We all have to die. He left doing what he loved.
Is that really so bad? As B&B said - via con dios, amigo.
[Edited on 11-23-2010 by The Sculpin]
I have often thought about the phrase "He left doing what he loved".
Even though this was so, that doesn't somehow nullify the sadness. Remember, it is the people who loved him (and his two amigos) and remain here on
earth for whom it is sad.
Beyond that, it is sad for those who didn't know him too. I have checked in with my own feelings and can verify this. The advent of a tragedy,
especially involving someone we know so much about, and also have Baja in common, means that we can directly relate to it. We are related in
brotherhood! It could have been one of us.
In conclusion, I don't see how, "He left doing what he loved." makes any difference at all. I'm sure he didn't love trying to ditch in the water. They
were unlucky to have perished in that way.
What I can get any consolation out of, at all, is that they spent their last few days in Baja doing what they loved. If one reflects on visions of
them during those happy times, we can muster a tearful smile.
Sculpin- Please don't take this as criticism. I am just philosophizing about the phrase.
RIP, amigos!
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woody with a view
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i deleted my long winded response in my eulogy.
here is the gist of it. i think Carlos Fiesta had a good long successful life. he did what he wanted, when he wanted. maybe not 100%, but if we
examine our own lot in life, i would hope that 95% of you Nomads would look yourself in the mirror and wink saying, "DAMN, i did have a pretty good
run!"
the rest of you just gotta put in more time......
RIP Carlos (and his 2 amigos!)
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Bajahowodd
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Tony
Just think for a moment about the many ways one might encounter their demise. Painful wasting cancer. Alzheimer's. Lou Gehrig disease. Or something
more pedestrian such as a traffic accident. Thing is, that while I truly understand where you are coming from, I'd like to think that whatever there
is in the hereafter, if there is one, that there is some merit to the idea of someone passing away in the midst of doing what they loved. JMHO
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DENNIS
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Whatever everything is all about, I really don't want to know. Nobody can take it with them, so to speak, but if what they leave behind is good, they
did good.
RIP
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Barry A.
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Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Tony
Just think for a moment about the many ways one might encounter their demise. Painful wasting cancer. Alzheimer's. Lou Gehrig disease. Or something
more pedestrian such as a traffic accident. Thing is, that while I truly understand where you are coming from, I'd like to think that whatever there
is in the hereafter, if there is one, that there is some merit to the idea of someone passing away in the midst of doing what they loved. JMHO
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What Howard said.
Barry
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toneart
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I think what you guys are saying is, "live life to the fullest". That is certainly a worthy thing to do. From what I know of you guys, you are doing
it! Better to have done that than not to have. It is your legacies to leave behind for your loved ones to remember.
We don't get to choose the way we die, but we can surely choose the way we live!
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Bob H
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Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
We don't get to choose the way we die, but we can surely choose the way we live! |
Right ON!
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Pescador
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Tony, you have hit on the real split that we face when a loved one passes. We try very hard to wrap our feeble little minds around the whole idea and
when we are unable to completely do that we come up with attempts at smoothing out the rough edges of our feelings with catchy little sayings that try
to make some sense out of the tragedy. Of course it is good to live life to the fullest but in the end I suspect that those who really did live life
to the fullest leave the biggest hole of all.
But since we do not get to choose the "exit time" the only thing we can do is to be the best that we can be up until that time.
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Ken Bondy
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This is a fascinating discussion, thanks toneart for lighting this off. I have too often heard the old, tired phrase, "...he/she died doing what
he/she loved doing..." and it has never made much sense to me. Other than the people that I love/have loved and my professional career, I have had
three major passions in my life, skiing, flying, and diving/underwater photography. The thought of dying doing any one of them is, frankly, pretty
repulsive to me. It wouldn't have made it any better for me, although it might have offered some consolation for those left behind. The best advice
is what others have offered here, paraphrased simply, live every day to the fullest, capture the day. Here's some good advice that I try to live by:
"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour. Now is the only time you
own. Live, love, toil with a will. Place no faith in time, and waste no time on faith. For the clock may soon be still." [Robert H. Smith, 1932, with
minor editorial modification]
carpe diem!
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Iflyfish
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I appreciate this thoughtful discussion. Coming on the heels of the US Thanksgiving Day is it particularly cogent.
The older I get the more significant these issues are to me. At this age and stage I face my mortality on a regular basis as I witness my decrepitude
advance on my once robust body.
It seems to me that there is truth in all of the thought provoking and thoughtful posts thus far.
I am reminded upon the death of someone who I identify with how important it is to live well, to live life to its fullest. Each day of consciousness
is a gift and an opportunity to seize life and enjoy it, to make it better not only for ourselves but for others also. Each day is also an opportunity
to love well.
I doubt that I will be remembered past a generation or two so have no illusions regarding my legacy. I do however wish to love those around me and to
be as positive as I can be while I am here. That is both good for me and for those around me.
I have concluded that when people die we try to make sense of it and thereby exercise some sort of illusionary control over the situation. He ate too
much, drank too much, was too reckless, he didn't have his chakras adequately aligned, he stored too much bile, anger, sloth etc. Rubbish really, we
all die and that's that. The only issue really is how long and with what quality we live.
We also try to control the situation by asking "what could I have done" etc. We subtly delude ourselves with these statements when we believe we will
not die from doing what “that poor fool did”.
For those who are left when someone close to them dies there is grief. How we deal with that grief is individual but there are to be found clear
patterns of it around the world. The biggest problem with grief, now it becomes pathological is when we deny it, don’t allow ourselves to grieve or we
stay stuck in it and stop living ourselves.
Many deny death and grief with platitudes "he is in a better place", “he lived long”, “he is now with Allah, Jesus” etc. These statements have many
levels to them and all serve the function of allaying our anxiety and grief over the situation.
We also try to assuage our feelings and the feelings of others with platitudes like "he lived well", "he lived a long life" etc. As humans we tend to
avoid pain and seek pleasure. We deny death. There is a wonderful book on the subject Ernst Becker’s Denial of Death, a Psychoanalytical View of
History.
As Kierkegaard well said “life is an apple with a worm at its core, that worm is we die” We all must come to terms with this fact and it is in my
opinion why as humans we have evolved such complex religions to address this issue, life’s great mystery.
I used to think that I would live forever. I now know that this is not only untrue but also I realize that I would not like to live in a body that
continues to deteriorate while I retain consciousness of its increasing decrepitude. For me the conclusion is that of many who have thus far posted. I
hope to live well, experience as much as I can, love well and be a positive force in the world while I am here. I hope that when I die that people
will take some time to reflect on our relationship, shed some tears, express some anger, finish their business with me and move on to live their own
lives with as much gusto as they can muster.
Iflyfishphilosophicaly
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Iflyfish
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"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour. Now is the only time you
own. Live, love, toil with a will. Place no faith in time, and waste no time on faith. For the clock may soon be still." [Robert H. Smith, 1932,
withminor editorial modification]
Well said Ken, well said.
Iflyfish
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DianaT
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Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
Tony, you have hit on the real split that we face when a loved one passes. We try very hard to wrap our feeble little minds around the whole idea and
when we are unable to completely do that we come up with attempts at smoothing out the rough edges of our feelings with catchy little sayings that try
to make some sense out of the tragedy. .............. |
I have often thought about the idea of those "catchy little sayings" and wondered------
You mention the attempt at smoothing of the rough edges, Tony mentioned trying to nullify---I don't know. Do those
things do any of that? When we are the ones left behind do we even hear those words when suffering such personal pain?
Yet in our society, we seem to often deny death as being a part of life----to me, no one every pointed this out better than George Carlin in some of
routines about death. We hardly even use the word dead. So what are we left with? Euphemisms become the norm --- even for the deeply religious.
I do like the Unitarian saying, which they probably adopted from else where as they often do,
In mystery we are born, in mystery we live, and in mystery we die.
And it could be added that it is a mystery WHEN we will die---or as the common euphemism would say, it was his/her time. But as humans we
seem to want answers, not mystery, but we are dealing with concepts we don't really understand.
Is it not sad for the dead? Is there any awareness? Since it is a mystery as to why we are alive at all, is dead any different? We do know those
left behind are in real pain, and those around the survivors seem to be left with little except the euphemisms.
Some cultures provide a rather programed way of dealing with life and death all as a part of the same thing. I wonder it that provides the survivors
more comfort, but I believe only a member of that culture would know.
Tony, it is a very interesting topic, and probably more so those of us who are closer to death simply because of age---or more liking to be said,
headed toward the end of our life.
And we are all left with our own definitions of living life to the fullest----
[Edited on 11-26-2010 by DianaT]
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Mike99km
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Dieing doing something we love.
Death is our last event, it will be a mark used by or friends/ loved ones. We do have a choice as to the when and how, most of us choose to stay.
Everybody does a risk assessment when they choose to do anything, get in car, take a walk,jump out of a plane, get out of bed. By deciding to to
anything we choose to live.
The way we live our life is how we will be remembered, Dying doing something we love generally means that we knew the risk and screwed up doing it.
We start set of events in motion that we lose control, can't stop or get off. The final outcome is or friends /loved ones are remembering us. In that
end we get to find out the answer to the big question.
All the the rest are left with a hole in our heart and grieving. Hopefully, you have make some mark on this world that you're positively remembered
by.
I know this is a bit harsh, I have had lots of friends die doing the thing they love. I celebrate their life and miss their company.
You live the life you settle for.
"Never teach a pig to sing it frustrates you and annoys the pig" - W. C. Fields.
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BajaGringo
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I hope they talk more about how I lived than how I died when the time comes. Don't put off your dreams for tomorrow and live with no regrets...
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schwlind
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So many eloquent words have been written... sadly, inspired by such a horrible tragedy.
I wish I had known him...
Linda
Linda
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Woooosh
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A tragedy that a full gas tank would have fixed, or at least another gallon.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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David K
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Well said Frank.
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toneart
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Quote: | Originally posted by schwlind
So many eloquent words have been written... sadly, inspired by such a horrible tragedy.
I wish I had known him...
Linda |
Yes! I wish I had known him too!
What wonderful responses from every one of you. I would love to sit in a circle with all of you who have so eloquently expressed your thoughts on
living and dying. I feel that Carlos Fiesta would also be present. He is!
We tend to ponder the "mysteries", as Diane put it. For me, the questions, "who, what, where and when" are not so important. It is the
"why(?)"that is still the mystery. Why life? Why death? Why indeed!
I feel I am getting clearer, and yet....????
Carpe Diem
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Barry A.
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For me, at 72, I have given up on the "pondering" Tony. I have (I think) provided for all my kids and my wife, gotten rid of many of my toys and most
junk, so when it happens I just hope it is really quick (preferably in my sleep), and I don't want any fuss made over it, and my family knows
it------I am ready, but in the mean time I will just "keep on living fast and hard" if you know what I mean. 
Life is good!!!!
Barry
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DianaT
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Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
Quote: | Originally posted by schwlind
So many eloquent words have been written... sadly, inspired by such a horrible tragedy.
I wish I had known him...
Linda |
Yes! I wish I had known him too!
What wonderful responses from every one of you. I would love to sit in a circle with all of you who have so eloquently expressed your thoughts on
living and dying. I feel that Carlos Fiesta would also be present. He is!
We tend to ponder the "mysteries", as Diane put it. For me, the questions, "who, what, where and when" are not so important. It is the
"why(?)"that is still the mystery. Why life? Why death? Why indeed!
I feel I am getting clearer, and yet....????
Carpe Diem |
Do you think we might even scratch the surface of the why ? But it would be interesting to try, or maybe just a little crazy
making in trying to seek that clarification.
Recently I heard someone say that since we do not understand the mystery and the why that we should just accept the now and forget pondering the
other. Not sure I could ever do that.
One interesting thought about people dying when they know they are dying comes from a relative of mine. When working where most of the patients were
dying and knew they were dying, she said she often watched them choose the time of actual death. These were people who had suffered very long term
illnesses.
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