Funny that Pacenos are so big on being Paceno Mexicano and from La Paz, yet, Hernan Cortez was an extranero who arrived to Bahia Ensenada (de los
Muertos) and married an Indian and therefore their son is Meztizo. The population was a few hundred Indians at the time spread through the region.
Other arrivals came from China, Europe, North America, South America and the Pacific Rim. Yet today the Paceno claims to be defiantly Mexican.
Anyone who knows history knows the Pacena used to be 7-8 feet tall amazonian, and now the Pacena is most often chaparita? So what is a Paceno?
What is Mexicano?
This is a city of people who have little idea of their history nor heritage. Few stories are told of the Indian history. it would be wonderful if
these events could shed light upon the truth, that Pacenos are a mix of extraneros, that anyone is as much Paceno as any other-Chino, Indio, etc...
And yet in La Paz we say the people most divergent that exist are Pacenos compared to Chilangos-the two are complete opposites?
Perhaps the theme of this years anniversary is "end nepotism, racism and false authority of heritage and honor the Indian heritage of La Paz".
Actually, I consider the "Birthday" of La Paz as being in 1811, when, Jose Espinosa, a retired soldier from the mineral de San Antonio, was given the
exclusive rights to what is now the area encompassing downtown La Paz in appreciation for his services. Part of the deal was that he raise crops and
otherwise provide for ships calling on the new port. When he was unable to fulfill that part of the agreement, the door was open for others to
colonize the area, too. This is when the continuous occupation of the area now known as La Paz first took root.
All four previous efforts to colonize the shores of the Bay of La Paz are nothing more than failures (although the Jesuit missionaries did last the
better part of three decades before they had to throw in the towel).
But when you want to brag about the antiquity of your city, why let a few facts get in the way?
I will be there May 7th or should be with the NORRA race and I will celebrate both the La Paz birthday and the end of the race. I plan on eating at
your place Jesse. Keep the cerveza cold. Maybe a little vino too.
Originally posted by Bajatripper
Actually, I consider the "Birthday" of La Paz as being in 1811, when, Jose Espinosa, a retired soldier from the mineral de San Antonio, was given the
exclusive rights to what is now the area encompassing downtown La Paz in appreciation for his services. Part of the deal was that he raise crops and
otherwise provide for ships calling on the new port. When he was unable to fulfill that part of the agreement, the door was open for others to
colonize the area, too. This is when the continuous occupation of the area now known as La Paz first took root.
All four previous efforts to colonize the shores of the Bay of La Paz are nothing more than failures (although the Jesuit missionaries did last the
better part of three decades before they had to throw in the towel).
But when you want to brag about the antiquity of your city, why let a few facts get in the way?
Speaking of the Jesuits... their mission on the Bay of La Paz lasted a very short 28 years, before moving the mission to Todos Santos...
7a) Nuestra Señora del Pilar de la Paz Airapi 1720-1748 (moved to Todos Santos in 1748)
7b) Nuestra Señora del Pilar de la Paz (Todos Santos) 1748-1840
The mission that was already at Todos Santos (Santa Rosa de las Palmas) ended in 1748 when it was taken over by the older La Paz mission.
13) Santa Rosa de las Palmas (Todos Santos) 1733-1748 (absorbed by moved La Paz mission in 1748)
No ruins were preserved in La Paz of the original church buildings and even its exact location is a mystery... likely built over by modern
construction. A plaque marks a possible spot in the city of La Paz:
Originally posted by gnukid
Funny that Pacenos are so big on being Paceno Mexicano and from La Paz, yet, Hernan Cortez was an extranero who arrived to Bahia Ensenada (de los
Muertos) and married an Indian and therefore their son is Meztizo. The population was a few hundred Indians at the time spread through the region.
Other arrivals came from China, Europe, North America, South America and the Pacific Rim. Yet today the Paceno claims to be defiantly Mexican.
Anyone who knows history knows the Pacena used to be 7-8 feet tall amazonian, and now the Pacena is most often chaparita? So what is a Paceno?
What is Mexicano?
This is a city of people who have little idea of their history nor heritage. Few stories are told of the Indian history. it would be wonderful if
these events could shed light upon the truth, that Pacenos are a mix of extraneros, that anyone is as much Paceno as any other-Chino, Indio, etc...
And yet in La Paz we say the people most divergent that exist are Pacenos compared to Chilangos-the two are complete opposites?
Perhaps the theme of this years anniversary is "end nepotism, racism and false authority of heritage and honor the Indian heritage of La Paz".
Much of what you say about Paceños could also be said of the United States in general. Mixture of European and whatever else? Sounds like an American
to me. And just what Indian heritage do we celebrate? My great-grand mother use to be paraded in the Pioneer Days Celebration as the "Oldest Living
White Person born in Whatcom County, WA." Some Indian heritage that would be.
Another reason locals don't celebrate their "Indian Heritage" is because it isn't "their" heritage. As you pointed out, the first group of locals died
off a long time ago. And since they left behind no monumental architecture, no written language, etc. (they didn't even have pottery technology in
Southern Baja), there isn't much to jump up and down about. About the only aspect of local culture that might stir up interest among some was that
they ran about naked (men were totally nude while the women covered their most intimate parts with little more than a G-string ). Come to think of it,
that could be a winning tourist promotion for the city, don't you think? It could be a celebration of nudity and man (and women, of course!) in
nature.
I will take your statement about everyone knowing that the original natives were giants as a "tongue-in-cheek" comment (you didn't mean it seriously,
did you?).
Speaking of Cortes and his arrival in the region, they don't even know the location of the colony, so how can they claim this as a "Foundation Day"?
Some sources place the colony at Pichilingue or over by Las Cruces, in which case, wouldn't it be the foundation day of those places, and NOT La
Paz's?
By the way, Cortes never married an Indian. He was married to a Spanish woman during all the years he was ever in Mexico and until his death. He did,
however, have a son out of wedlock with la Malinche. As they say down here, "No dejo de ser hombre."
PS
I wouldn't go around questioning the patriotism of a Paceño. They have quite a long history of not taking kindly to outsiders (especially Chilangos)
who do so.
If you want a good summary of what makes up a contemporary native Sudcaliforniano, I'd recommend that you visit the Casa de la Cultura on 16 de
Septiembre and Belizario Dominguez. You'd learn a lot.
I will take your statement about everyone knowing that the original natives were giants as a "tongue-in-cheek" comment (you didn't mean it seriously,
did you?).
Thank you for getting my faceticious humor.
There are many who study La Paz sociology, the social experiment, the history, El Puerto d'Ilusion. It's really quite a interesting case, it's among
the oldest North American cities, yet also among the youngest states on the West Coast of North America having been incorporated as a state in 1974,
there is a very long history yet the feeling of being young and having not yet arrived. La Paz has among the highest standards of living in Mexico,
however, it appears few actually do work.
What I know is 'Being Paceno Mexicano' is to be from somewhere else, largely mixed culturally, the feeling of being Paceno is to be naive, arrogant,
easily angered, quick to forget, proud, capable, self-reliant, optimistic, happy, complacent, macho, trickster.
Of course Nomads love a dog-pile, so pile on and insult me for even broaching this mysterious subject. Probably DK could espouse how awesome the
Franciscans were! Or what a cool guy William Walker was when he declared he was King of La Paz.
The point is for being a very Mexican city, La Paz is not very Mexican?@!#$! Or what I mean to say is Mexico is a very dynamic and diverse place, it
just doesn't like to admit it.
Walker was president (not king) of the Republic of Lower California, later re-named Republic of Sonora (Lower California was one state and Sonora was
the other). The flag was a white field with two red horizontal strips in the lower half and two red six pointed stars in the upper half.
Walker was defeated by the elements and a resistant Mexican population and surrendered to U.S. authorites near Tia Juana.
Walker later tried to take over Central America, and faced a fireing squad.
There are many who study La Paz sociology, the social experiment, the history, El Puerto d'Ilusion. It's really quite a interesting case, it's among
the oldest North American cities, yet also among the youngest states on the West Coast of North America having been incorporated as a state in 1974,
there is a very long history yet the feeling of being young and having not yet arrived. La Paz has among the highest standards of living in Mexico,
however, it appears few actually do work.
What I know is 'Being Paceno Mexicano' is to be from somewhere else, largely mixed culturally, the feeling of being Paceno is to be naive, arrogant,
easily angered, quick to forget, proud, capable, self-reliant, optimistic, happy, complacent, macho, trickster.
Of course Nomads love a dog-pile, so pile on and insult me for even broaching this mysterious subject. Probably DK could espouse how awesome the
Franciscans were! Or what a cool guy William Walker was when he declared he was King of La Paz.
The point is for being a very Mexican city, La Paz is not very Mexican?@!#$! Or what I mean to say is Mexico is a very dynamic and diverse place, it
just doesn't like to admit it.
[Edited on 4-12-2011 by gnukid]
Your heart is in the right place, Kid (I think). You seem to buy into propaganda, though. La Paz is not an old city, as far as old cities go. San
Diego, California was up-and-running when La Paz was still nothing but a fish camp. At least I don't consider 1811 as old for a city. (If you want old
in North America, go to Saint Augustine, Florida.)
La Paz is definitely a "Mexican" city. I've spent quite a bit of time interviewing tourists (both foreign and national) who visited the city, and that
was a common sentiment expressed--that it still retains its Mexicaness. It may not have any colonial architecture (remember, it was founded about the
time of Mexican independence), but it has enough post-colonial stuff to make it interesting and the city has not been (and will likely never be)
overwhelmed by resort hotels. But it is first and foremost, a port city, and like any port city, it has attracted many foreigners as permanent
settlers. But that doesn't make it any less Mexican than Mazatlan, Manzanillo, or Veracruz (all of which have also attracted foreigners). In fact, La
Paz today feels very much like Mazatlan did in the 1960s, before the Zona Dorada was built. And I expect it to develop much as Mazatlan has, with our
"Zona Dorada" out at Tecolote Beach. But the town of La Paz should stay a Mexican town much as Olas Altas has.
And you are right when you say that being a Paceño Mexican is being from somewhere else, much like being an American is being from somewhere else.
I would question what you know about feeling what it is to be a Paceño since you are obviously not one. I think only a Paceño could tell us what that
feels like. I did, however, find your list of attributes interesting. From whose perspective is this seen? You have lived in enough other regions of
Mexico to make those assertions? More likely, these are the views of your wife, since few Americans would be able to discern the regional differences
among Mexicans.
I'd be interested in your sociology literature, and anything else you might have that studies La Paz and its inhabitants in a professional manner.
By the way; the Franciscans never operated out of the city, since their brief stay on the peninsula happened before the present city was founded.
Please don't consider this as "piling on," and I hope you haven't taken anything I said as an intended insult; my only interest is in accuracy.
There are many who study La Paz sociology, the social experiment, the history, El Puerto d'Ilusion. It's really quite a interesting case, it's among
the oldest North American cities, yet also among the youngest states on the West Coast of North America having been incorporated as a state in 1974,
there is a very long history yet the feeling of being young and having not yet arrived. La Paz has among the highest standards of living in Mexico,
however, it appears few actually do work.
What I know is 'Being Paceno Mexicano' is to be from somewhere else, largely mixed culturally, the feeling of being Paceno is to be naive, arrogant,
easily angered, quick to forget, proud, capable, self-reliant, optimistic, happy, complacent, macho, trickster.
Of course Nomads love a dog-pile, so pile on and insult me for even broaching this mysterious subject. Probably DK could espouse how awesome the
Franciscans were! Or what a cool guy William Walker was when he declared he was King of La Paz.
The point is for being a very Mexican city, La Paz is not very Mexican?@!#$! Or what I mean to say is Mexico is a very dynamic and diverse place, it
just doesn't like to admit it.
Your heart is in the right place, Kid (I think). You seem to buy into propaganda, though. La Paz is not an old city, as far as old cities go. San
Diego, California was up-and-running when La Paz was still nothing but a fish camp. At least I don't consider 1811 as old for a city. (If you want old
in North America, go to Saint Augustine, Florida.)
La Paz is definitely a "Mexican" city. I've spent quite a bit of time interviewing tourists (both foreign and national) who visited the city, and that
was a common sentiment expressed--that it still retains its Mexicaness. It may not have any colonial architecture (remember, it was founded about the
time of Mexican independence), but it has enough post-colonial stuff to make it interesting and the city has not been (and will likely never be)
overwhelmed by resort hotels. But it is first and foremost, a port city, and like any port city, it has attracted many foreigners as permanent
settlers. But that doesn't make it any less Mexican than Mazatlan, Manzanillo, or Veracruz (all of which have also attracted foreigners). In fact, La
Paz today feels very much like Mazatlan did in the 1960s, before the Zona Dorada was built. And I expect it to develop much as Mazatlan has, with our
"Zona Dorada" out at Tecolote Beach. But the town of La Paz should stay a Mexican town much as Olas Altas has.
And you are right when you say that being a Paceño Mexican is being from somewhere else, much like being an American is being from somewhere else.
I would question what you know about feeling what it is to be a Paceño since you are obviously not one. I think only a Paceño could tell us what that
feels like. I did, however, find your list of attributes interesting. From whose perspective is this seen? You have lived in enough other regions of
Mexico to make those assertions? More likely, these are the views of your wife, since few Americans would be able to discern the regional differences
among Mexicans.
I'd be interested in your sociology literature, and anything else you might have that studies La Paz and its inhabitants in a professional manner.
By the way; the Franciscans never operated out of the city, since their brief stay on the peninsula happened before the present city was founded.
Please don't consider this as "piling on," and I hope you haven't taken anything I said as an intended insult; my only interest is in accuracy.
Interesting BajaTripper, like Dk, you have some facts and opinions but are about 90% wrong on all counts. I'll kindly point that out, and note that La
Paz's true history apparently makes people mad and in certain denial. I should also like point out how often people are wrong here on BN, as an
example of how people are limited in their perspectives and project upon others their limited views. Those characteristics, denial and
misunderstanding, these alone are worth study as a signature of the perception of Pacenos from within and from outside.
By now, you must admit that the popular story that Columbus deserves credit for discovery of the Americas is an utter blip of nonsense, among many
other North American tales which are certainly offensive to any truthful historical context.
The Californias' have a long and well-defined history. The history of Indians and diverse cultural camps is rich, including stories of vicious
pirates like Walker. Las California's history is defined not by the absurd and false 150 year history published by US schools and institutions, but
instead by the 10,000 year history that gets rejected by propagandists. La Paz has a fantastic history that we know something about from the study of
remains, geology, fossils etc...
Chinese sent explorers in junk warships, certainly by the 1300s-1400s and likely as soon as the vessels were capable in 300AD?, the Chinese are
our direct West coast neighbors &#Yo! Much evidence exists of their presence in the Californias, many books have been written about this, you may
recall recent successful acheological historically accurate recreations of these trips on the Princess Tai Ping of which I participated (that's me).
When a Chinese junk vessel departs from East to the West, they would encounter uncertain weather and had no motors, the square hulled boats had little
upwind ability and therefore their arrival was often south of San Diego. There is also a history of many hundreds of ships running up and down the
West Coast-this is little known or discussed in US history, but the evidence exists and has been demonstrated. The traditional small felucca Italian
sailing vessels known in San Francisco are the same as the 2-3 remaining in La Paz. You can visit Hyde Street Pier in San Francisco and meet John
Muir (IV?) to learn more and see the discovered remains and recreations of these vessels (that's me playing the role of Chinese captain on the California shrimper Grace Quan with a proud John Muir on
board).
When you look at the face of some Pacenos, you see the Chinese influence. A Paceno is often known as Chino! Their skin is pearl white and their eyes
clearly have Asian influence (are you getting mad yet?@#$! argh. There are also many Pacenos with French heritage, Indian, German, Italian etc...
La Paz has ample evidence of diverse fish camps that go back 1000 plus years and certainly more, do you believe people suddenly arrived exactly 1000
years ago? We can find evidence of the people of Baja go back from 1000-12,000 to 30,000 years ago as diverse people were the primary inhabitants of the time. Where did they come from? They came from the Pacific Rim and beyond.
We can surmise that by the time of el ##### Hernándo Cortés arrival from Spain as a 'conquistador' there were perhaps at least 800-1000 native Indians
from the tip to North of La Paz and certainly with Chinese and diverse influence.
You may have seen the Pearl beds of Espirtu Santo and vast remains of cultures there, I wonder who built those? Ghosts? Yep? The remains have been studied and show hundreds lived on
the island in the 1200-1300. They were known as Las Palmas. Pearl jewelry from the region can be dated to 7000 years ago and some of the largest Pearls in the world were found there, one measuring 400 grains.
When one considers why people come to La Paz today, we can understand why they came a long time ago, the climate and sea life provided a warm and
plentiful existence unlike Alta California which had harsher Winters. I call La Paz-la hermanita de San Pancho, because both La Paz and San Francisco
are cities based on a peninsula of a bay near the Pacifc coast-they are mirrors of each other-a tricky, circus-type mirror.
I appreciate this discussion very much as it's my passion, I also appreciate the vast misunderstanding of La Paz' history and also that in general few
people want to know the truth about La Paz history since it doesn't serve their goals of support their ego in some manner.
How do I know about La Paz? Am I Paceno? Yes I am Paceno. When we discover that La Paz's history is not one derived of solely native Mexican/Spanish
influence, that instead as an Island of sorts it's history is influenced by the Pacific Rim and Indigenous Culture and certainly is diverse, we see La
Paz is not racially Mexican, but is made of those people who decided to call it home. A Paceno is someone whose heart is in La Paz with a love for all
things of Bahia de La Paz, Sana Cruz or whatever they called it.
In fact, I have joined the Chinese in their primative yet successful recreation of the historical trip. I am interested in how Indians lived so I lived with with Seri Indians in Sonora, I also explore every street of La Paz, arroyo, beach and hill, speaking to the people, looking in their
eyes. Many from the the waterfront have never been to the hilltops and vice versa. They say, I know La Paz streets better than almost anyone. I could
tell some stories. As a boy, I met an amazonian Pacena Princess in La Paz, we became friends. We are still friends and we live in La Paz-that was 25
years ago. She is more than 6 feet tall without her ever present high heels and buffon hair-that makes her almost 7 feet tall-no kidding. Her family,
Poloni, came from Italy to La Paz in the last 100 years.
Among the most successful Victoria's secret models is a Pacena, a bit more south from Mire Flores, she is also 6 foot tall. So the story of beautiful
amazons from La Paz has some merit.
As to DK's assessment of William Walker,
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Walker was president (not king) of the Republic of Lower California, later re-named Republic of Sonora (Lower California was one state and Sonora was
the other). The flag was a white field with two red horizontal strips in the lower half and two red six pointed stars in the upper half.
Walker was defeated by the elements and a resistant Mexican population and surrendered to U.S. authorities near Tia Juana.
Walker later tried to take over Central America, and faced a fireing squad.
Walker was a man of is time, A prodigy, a practicing Doctor, Lawyer, an Assistant Editor of the San Francisco Newspaper, a notable Mason! He
apparently envisioned himself cut from the cloth of imperialist US land grabbers, a west coast version of a Banana Republic- an important term to
understand coined by his contemporary O Henry.
Walker saw what others has done and attempted to nab his own Republic in La Paz. Like the 'filibuster' (pirate) model known to the USA, he declared himself to be self-appointed President, a modern pre-eminent King of a sovereign and
independent country. He raised his flag in La Paz on November 3rd 1853 following a bloody skirmish. Somehow, I see it like the taking of Los Arcos
Hotel, temporary, egotistical, dramatic and idiotic but eventually inconsequential. Few Pacenos know of Walker...
The flag was reported to have been variations on that described by DK. Two stars in the center with red on top and bottom. The flag was also raised in San Francisco on the corner of
Kearny and Sacramento Streets to front a successful enlistment office.
Walker abandoned his position in La Paz when he realized he had no cover and was exposed on all side to attack. He went to Ensenada and tried the
tactic again, eventually he returned to San Diego. Walker did turn himself him to authorities without consequence and returned to San Francisco where
he stood trial. After a rousing speech the jury declared his innocence after 8 minutes of deliberation.
Later, after a quick election he declared himself President of Nicaragua with the acknowledgement of the US. He led a bloody invasion, succeeded
briefly and eventually was returned home to trial and quickly found not guilty. This repeated again in Granada, later another trial and innocence.
Twice more he invaded Nicaragua via neighboring countries until following many twists and bloody incursions he was eventually put to death by
Nicaraguan firing squad. He died known as a horrible, insensitive overly confident and vicious person and typically American.
Whew, the conclusive point is that the idea of a multi-cultural melting pot is a false notion. The idea that La Paz is natively racially Mexican is
false. La Paz and apparently Las Californias are made up from a diverse culture that lived among each other, were influenced and conquered by each
each other but are not homogenous like say Japan. La Paz is an island of sorts with a long history of arrivals due to its position and welcoming Bay
and yet also La Paz is harsh at times, exposed, dry and difficult.
La Paz has a very long history yet remains young at heart, uncertain, yet to define itself completely, La Paz forever yearns to become something it
hasn't yet achieved like a young man or woman, that's who we are. It forever screams opportunity yet obstacles and traps exist everywhere at every
turn. It is dynamic. Those who understand these characteristics exploit it. Others who do not understand La Paz curse it and blame La Paz for all
their troubles, yet La Paz is just a City, a quiet little Pueblo though also among the largest physical geographical municipalities in Mexico? A
Dichotomy! An Enigma! Or wait am I talking about DK.
I give up, Kid, you win. You make me really, really angry with your truths and I just can't take it anymore.
But seriously, any time you wish to compare the sources from which our diverging opinions come from, why don't we visit each other's libraries? We
both live here in La Paz, don't we? Go ahead and U2U me and we'll set up the visits. I'd love to see your references. I'm sure you've got all of the
original Spanish accounts, since most of what we know of the early history of Baja comes from them. Can't very well give an informed opinion without
them, since many have yet to be translated into English. And then, about your Spanish...
I'd like to entertain this further, but I have a life.
Take care, Kid--over and out
interesting topic...tripper mentions the regional differences in Mexico which find ever fascinating. I too believe that living in an area for an
extended period of time...say more than 10 years...one begins to take on the regional flavour...or essence.
I have discerned a noticeable difference in people who are from San Roque as opposed to those who were raised in Asuncion...and of course there are
los flojos from San Ignacio...and GN is a riot of mixed cultures...then there are the ranch cultures who's roots are spanish...history molds every
populated area...real history that is.....
This version of the flag is from an illustration and description provided in a book on the event... one of the Dawson series books.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bajatripper
I'd love to see your references. I'm sure you've got all of the original Spanish accounts, since most of what we know of the early history of Baja
comes from them. ...
I linked my resources in my post?
I linked at least 10 resources to read about the 30,000 year history of La Paz, not one other poster linked even one???
If you had to choose between references and facts and spouting nonsense and insults, what would YOU choose?
Apparently 100% of Nomads go for absolute avoidance of facts, ignorance combined with arrogance with a handful of spite and few Masonic tricks, yeah
it's the BN signature!
Originally posted by David K
This version of the flag is from an illustration and description provided in a book on the event... on of the Dawson series books.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Edited on 4-12-2011 by David K]
More like this, according to historian, Juan Manuel Gabino Villascán:
"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen.
The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back
if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Theodore Roosevelt
"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes
"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others
cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn
"The best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer." - Cunningham's Law
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