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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
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TW and brother Bill are still going.
I suggest everyone bring a backpack or other means to carry water and a snack or trailmix etc. We'll spend 3-4 hours getting to and back plus whatever
time we spend on the site climbing up down and around. Lou's ATV with a cooler will be a big plus. A long sleeve shirt and wide brim hat and lotion to
protect from the sun. The wash has many spots that are soft sand and others with rocks and needle type vegitation and water. Lou's ATV can probably
get thru to the last rocky section which is before the bend just before the arches.
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3851
Registered: 2-9-2004
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I'd like to go but I don't want to drive myself (would rather ride with someone and share expenses) for a relatively short trip like that. I can put
everything I need in a backpack (plus water bottles).
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3851
Registered: 2-9-2004
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Has anyone considered an approach from west of site B? Looks like there is a trail that leads to it. Might be shorter as the crow flies. Then again,
this is the kind of thinking that always gets me lost! Ha!
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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
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The west approach was considered on the previous page and Bajalou pointed out how steep it was. The wash drop is not noticed since it so gradual in
either direction. It's also not difficult but it is 3-4 miles one way. It took me and my buddy 2 hours going in but we stopped a couple of times for
GPS readings and 1 1/2 hrs to come back. We stopped once for pictures and once to rest after starting back. We moved faster coming back because we
were pushing the daylight time and neither of us had a flashlight with us.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65084
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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TWO WEEKS TO GO...
Plans firming up... I just got a u2u from another Nomad who wants to join in the fun hike on April 30 to the lost mission of Santa Isabel!
Okay adventure seekers... where are you?  
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elbeau
Nomad
Posts: 256
Registered: 3-2-2011
Location: Austin, TX
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Hi David and everyone,
I'm still really excited about the trip, even if I don't make it. I haven't posted here in a while, but rest assured, I'm still as excited (or
delusional depending on your point of view) about this trip as ever.
I want to throw my two cents in about a couple of things. First, several of you (brianmckenzie in particular) put some real effort into studying and
presenting good information about the area and just because your conclusions didn't match mine, I went a little overboard in rebutting your remarks.
I apologize. When I U2U'd Bryan he put it pretty well when he said:
| Quote: | | you have postulated a theory and based it on very limited photographic evidence, then based your rationale not on providing evidence, but rather
discrediting my evidence by saying that no one has ground-truthed the location. While it is a correct statement that the area has not been probed,
that argument is neutral, not at all bolstering your claim or mine. |
He's right. I've had a lot of fun learning about the El Volcan arroyo and surrounding area, and I love the interchange we're having about it...but
the "evidence" for this expedition really is just my interpretation of blurry satellite imagery.
...Now...
That being said, I've gone back and forth in my mind about whether or not I see ruins (mission or otherwise), and I've still been actively
researching to see if I can learn any more. I keep researching for two reasons. First, a bunch of you are making an expedition initiated by my post,
and I feel a responsibility to do the best I can to learn as much as I can and pass it on for your trip. Second...I'm really enjoying this 
Anyways...Lately I've been comparing and overlaying and twisting and turning four distinctly different satellite images of the site, and I'm back on
the page of thinking I still see ruins (please pause here for sighs and laughter).
I'll be posting images of what I'm talking about, but they're kind of hard to produce and describe...mainly because I want it to be understandable to
the casual reader of this thread, not just to overly-obsessive people like myself who are willing to spend time clicking image layers on and off and
comparing pixels for absurd amounts of time. Like Bryan pointed out, the only "evidence" I have is the images (and up until now I've really only
focused much on the GE image), so I'm going to introduce some new images and do my best to draw as much information from them as I can.
Thanks to everybody who's keeping an interest in this and making such great efforts to help!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65084
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Rather there is anything man-made there or not is not a big deal... it is an opportunity to have fun with fellow Baja Nomads doing something
different.
Now, I am sad to say my passenger has dropped out... So, unless I make some good money the rest of this month (and my phone has been ringing thanks to
the dry weather), I will NOT be able to have fun with you in Baja this time!
[Edited on 4-16-2011 by David K]
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bajalou
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4459
Registered: 3-11-2004
Location: South of the broder
Member Is Offline
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I started another thread just about the trip. Who-Where - When
Easier to follow than posts interspersed with posts about the area imagery etc
"April 2011 search for lost mission" --or something like that.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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Bwana_John
Nomad
Posts: 291
Registered: 10-17-2007
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| Quote: |
Anyways...Lately I've been comparing and overlaying and twisting and turning four distinctly different satellite images of the site,
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If the sat pics were not taken form the same place in space, you should be able to put 2 of them into a steroscope and get 3 dimensions.
The trick is aligning the images correctly.
Many people can even see 3 dimensions without the steroscope when the images are in the correct place and your eyes are the correct distance.
A steroscope should be less than $40 from a geology supply store.
Survaying and geology supplys
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elbeau
Nomad
Posts: 256
Registered: 3-2-2011
Location: Austin, TX
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bwana_John
| Quote: |
Anyways...Lately I've been comparing and overlaying and twisting and turning four distinctly different satellite images of the site,
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If the sat pics were not taken form the same place in space, you should be able to put 2 of them into a steroscope and get 3 dimensions.
The trick is aligning the images correctly.
Many people can even see 3 dimensions without the steroscope when the images are in the correct place and your eyes are the correct distance.
A steroscope should be less than $40 from a geology supply store.
Survaying and geology supplys |
It is true that if the images are taken from different angles, but reasonably the same that you can get a 3D visualization, but I've tried to make it
work with the two best images and they're just too different. One was taken about midday in the middle of the summer, the other was taken in the
early morning in January five years later. The main problem is the starkly different shadows being cast by the hillsides. The angles of the photos
are also quite different, to the point that even the areas that have shading reasonably in common are taken at such a different perspective that to
line up all the features in the photos you have to warp the image enough that you lose the stereo effect. I dunno, maybe someone else can do it
better than me, but I've tried and haven't had any luck yet.
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bryanmckenzie
Senior Nomad
Posts: 561
Registered: 9-23-2009
Location: 400 Km from Mexico Beach, Florida
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot & humid --- not hot & dry.
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Thanks Lou. I decided to add the LINK here as a convenience for everyone.
Sadly, I too, will not be able to attend; financial reasons.
| Quote: | Originally posted by bajalou
I started another thread just about the trip. Who-Where - When
Easier to follow than posts interspersed with posts about the area imagery etc
"April 2011 search for lost mission" --or something like that. |
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65084
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Less than 2 weeks to go... it would seem I am back in with a Nomad passenger... It will be a fun hike and campfire story time... Everyone going, bring
some fire wood if you can. Friday night and Saturday night in Arroyo el Volcan... Also, before we leave... a short (less than 1/2 mile) side trip up
the arroyo to the El Volcan geyser and pools will be worth it... specially if there is nothing at Santa Isabel.
(remember, if we find the Jesuit gold stash... there is "nothing" at Santa Isabel 
)
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elbeau
Nomad
Posts: 256
Registered: 3-2-2011
Location: Austin, TX
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Less than 2 weeks to go... it would seem I am back in with a Nomad passenger... It will be a fun hike and campfire story time... Everyone going, bring
some fire wood if you can. Friday night and Saturday night in Arroyo el Volcan... Also, before we leave... a short (less than 1/2 mile) side trip up
the arroyo to the El Volcan geyser and pools will be worth it... specially if there is nothing at Santa Isabel.
(remember, if we find the Jesuit gold stash... there is "nothing" at Santa Isabel
) |
I was sooooooo close to giving you a call to say I could come yesterday. I got the $$$ thing worked out, we had family who would have watched the
kids, we had airfare chosen, but not purchased...then we realized that all three of our older kids would have to miss their standardized testing.
DOH!!!!
My one daughter has been a little "off" lately so it's not reasonable to leave my wife alone to deal with her right now. So (once again) I am
officially not coming...but it's killing me.
No matter what your expedition does or doesn't uncover, I'm going to start a thread planning a trip down the old El Tule trail for this fall (or
whenever the whether gets reasonable again). Lost mission or not, I need to visit the arroyo this year.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65084
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by elbeau
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Less than 2 weeks to go... it would seem I am back in with a Nomad passenger... It will be a fun hike and campfire story time... Everyone going, bring
some fire wood if you can. Friday night and Saturday night in Arroyo el Volcan... Also, before we leave... a short (less than 1/2 mile) side trip up
the arroyo to the El Volcan geyser and pools will be worth it... specially if there is nothing at Santa Isabel.
(remember, if we find the Jesuit gold stash... there is "nothing" at Santa Isabel
) |
I was sooooooo close to giving you a call to say I could come yesterday. I got the $$$ thing worked out, we had family who would have watched the
kids, we had airfare chosen, but not purchased...then we realized that all three of our older kids would have to miss their standardized testing.
DOH!!!!
My one daughter has been a little "off" lately so it's not reasonable to leave my wife alone to deal with her right now. So (once again) I am
officially not coming...but it's killing me.
No matter what your expedition does or doesn't uncover, I'm going to start a thread planning a trip down the old El Tule trail for this fall (or
whenever the whether gets reasonable again). Lost mission or not, I need to visit the arroyo this year. |
Don't worry Beau, we will cover it from every angle possible... these Nomads are a great bunch... as you may have figured already after TW's pilot
expedition to your site.
Everything happens in is proper place and time... I was resolved to sit it out... then the u2u today from a Nomad wanting to do this.
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BAJACAT
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2902
Registered: 11-21-2005
Location: NATIONAL CITY, CA
Member Is Offline
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sweet DK, I hope the same happens on my side, I really want to go, plus this will be my first trip with you, Mr BAJA...
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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elbeau
Nomad
Posts: 256
Registered: 3-2-2011
Location: Austin, TX
Member Is Offline
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Many posts in this thread have focused on whether or not there was or is water in the area. Here is a quote from an article in "Inter-America":
"By the month of September of the same year, in consequence of a storm, a freshet of the rivulet of El Tule laid bare the very rich placers of this
locality, and the neighbors of Santa Cruz hastened to take advantage of them until they were exhausted by the water. The auriferous sands of this
valley lie beneath the sediment and the vegetable mold, at a slight depth, and scattered throughout it. There may be found many excavations that
contain them, but the water hinders the extraction of them. Art and science have not yet reached there; they do not yet lend their mechanical
assistance to draining, a thing that could be very easily accomplished."
This quote helps us in a couple of ways. First, the article describes El Tule as one of the chief mining districts. That supports what DK has said
about there being a lot of mines in the general area, which doesn't help my case for ruins...but doesn't destroy it yet either
But what we also see is that not only is there water in the arroyo, but there is enough water that it consistently interferes with attempts at doing
placer mining by removing the arroyo sediment...even to the point that the author suggests the need for "mechanical assistance to draining". I don't
believe the author thought he was only dealing with a rainy season, it sounds to me like he is describing water consistently beneath much of the
arroyo.
...unless, of course, the reference to "El Tule" means some different El Tule, which is possible. If someone knows, please chime in.
Here's the page from the publication and a Google Maps image showing the El Volcan / El Tule arroyo (incorrectly labeled "Zamora") compared to San
Antonio, which is mentioned in the article.
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elbeau
Nomad
Posts: 256
Registered: 3-2-2011
Location: Austin, TX
Member Is Offline
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Here's a few satellite images lined up together of the "arches" (not surprisingly, GE and GM use the same image):
And here's a thermal image of the area from 1984, which is interesting, but the resolution is 14-meters, which isn't nearly good enough to discern
features like we want:
And last but not least, we'll call this one the siezurarch. It uses a simple quick-flipping technique to help the human eye see depth (much like
bajalou suggested earlier):
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65084
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Could you put a pointer on, or circle over your 'arches'... on the Terraserver image (or all three)?
The El Tule in the book is very likely not the same place. It is grouped with other mine regions most are south of La Paz. There is no historic 'Santa
Cruz' (as a neighbor) near El Volcan.
Keep up the research, however! If there was running water in El Volcan, I would bring my gold pan! There is just south at Cataviņa and Santa Maria
(very limited) and north in Arroyo Grande and Arroyo Matomi.
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GregN
Nomad
Posts: 100
Registered: 5-13-2004
Location: Palm Springs
Member Is Offline
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Sounds like a fun adventure. Enjoy it everyone.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65084
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by GregN
Sounds like a fun adventure. Enjoy it everyone. |
Thank you... it is (afterall) one of the legends in YOUR book!
http://www.gregniemann.com/bajalegends.html
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