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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
No! We the People caused it!
We failed to stop the use of Drugs!
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Skeet I think history proves that we will never stop the use of drugs. Every society in the history of human civilization
has had its intoxicants, the natural human desire to get high will not change. The drug problem will never be solved until we stop pretending it is a
war and start managing it with intelligence: legalize drugs to eliminate the profit motive, focus on education and treatment, and
stop treating drug users as criminals. |
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Iflyfish
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Ken
"Skeet I think history proves that we will never stop the use of drugs. Every society in the history of human civilization has had its intoxicants,
the natural human desire to get high will not change. The drug problem will never be solved until we stop pretending it is a war and start managing it
with intelligence: legalize drugs to eliminate the profit motive, focus on education and treatment, and stop treating drug users as criminals."
Very well said. Jimmy Carter came out AGAIN, after 40 years, to AGAIN share your view on this issue.
Dennis. I think there is again a discourse on the subject happening in the mainstream press. The recently released International Report, signed by X
Latin American heads of state, among others, Ron Paul discussing this with the Republicans and Carter coming out about this are all in the news. This
issue needs serious discussion as the cost of this "War" is now under question not to mention the wrong headed approach to the problems associated
with drug use. Most recreational drug users do not have legal problems except those associated with being busted. After being busted comes problems
obtaining employment etc. and down they go.
I have for the past 40 years felt like I was talking to exactly what Dennis posted.
Ron Paul recently came out as the winner of a straw pole and his Libertarian views on the subject are very clear. I saw him ask a group of Republicans
"If heroin was legalized how many of you would use it?" the response was stunning silence and then applause. Getting behind legalizing drugs could
bring a lot of dissaffected liberals, who see Obama as having abandoned their causes, as being too centerist or conservative, might jump ship and
support a Libertarian like Paul, who advocates keeping the government out of the bedroom, woman's uteruses and the decision of what intoxicants to
use. These are very important issues to many people.
Iflyfish
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DENNIS
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Right or wrong, it will be next to impossible to gather a quorum vote for legalization.
Right or wrong, who wants to stick their neck out?
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"I saw him ask a group of Republicans "If heroin was legalized how many of you would use it?" the response was stunning silence and then applause."
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Probably the same response to a question such as, "If Scotch was illegalized, how many of you would stop drinking it?"
I doubt there's enough time left in my life to see a satisfactory solution to this problem.
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Skeet/Loreto
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Dennis: I thonk you are right about having enough time left.
I too must accept the fact that the use of Drugs will never be stopped, If maybe we could do the same thing that my Generation did and allow drinking,
make punishment for overuse and Hurting other people a way to go to Jail.
In my mind and experience I have trouble tying the Boose into the Drugs as the affect it has on people, the Enviorment it creates, the Illegal Money
involved etc.
Could it be that the Drug problem will become so bad that we will become so weak that another country will take us over.
It is hard for me to think that all these ole Texas Cowboys will let anything Happen to Texas.
Most all of the Murders and Assaults, Women and Men killing their Children are where Drugs have been involved
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Iflyfish
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Skeet wrote:
"Dennis: I thonk you are right about having enough time left.
I too must accept the fact that the use of Drugs will never be stopped, If maybe we could do the same thing that my Generation did and allow drinking,
make punishment for overuse and Hurting other people a way to go to Jail."
I am impressed that you have taken in some of the information presented here regarding drug use and abuse and how best to address it. We all agree
that there are very serious problems involved and the current approach is not resolving those problems and may actually be making them worse.
It is very hard to change ones perspective, particularly as we age. I am impressed with this latest post as it demonstrates some flexibility in your
thinking. It is also prima facia evidence to me and I hope others that change can occur if issues are addressed clear enough and long enough. My 92
year old father in law also makes the point about Prohibition of Alcohol and the parallels that we see in the current Prohibition that makes criminals
out of millions of people, gangsters out of thousands, and creates a state of terror for us all. Not to mention the enormous resources, both economic
and personal, we are throwing away at the current march to folly that we call the “War on Drugs”.
I also believe that Dennis is right about us perhaps not living long enough to see these changes happen. I also had my doubts about the ending of
racial segregation (to the extent it has happened), the ending of the Viet Nam War, the success of the anti-smoking movement, and the acknowledgement
of the civil rights of those of us who are born gay/lesbian/transgendered. There is always a cultural lag between awareness and change, that lag is
often played our over decades. It is very hard to see solutions to problems like these and live through the suffering that goes on before real social
change takes place. I believe that regardless of the outcome in my lifetime that it is important to lend our voice to those issues that we feel
passionate about. As Burke so eloquently said it “all that is necessary for the final triumph of evil over good is that good men do nothing”. What we
can do is speak our minds and as single instruments are learned by individuals together they form an orchestra.
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
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This is how cigarette packs will look in the near future and is how one can deal with an addictive substance using social stigma. This is part of how
we should be dealing with drug abuse. Have you seen the faces and teeth of long term tweekers? Tobacco use has gone way down in the USofA. Tobacco
companies have turned their sights on the emerging international markets. Drugs don't go away, people's attitudes toward them changes.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230393670457639...
Iflyfishsmokefree
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Bajatripper
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
There are some really smart people in this forum, but all we human beings seem to be expert in one area and utter fools and marooons in other areas.
The one thing I find fortifying is that most of us Nomads have our hearts in the right place. To me, if a person’s heart is in the right place, well,
that is all that matters to me in the final analysis.
The discord comes from seeing things differently. Skeet is really for the betterment of our human character (a virtue in itself) and is rightfully
upset and impatient with what he sees through his eyes. Goat sees through the BS and major errors of the opposition and rebuts valiantly,
consistently, whole heartedly, and relentlessly as a good warrior would. Cypress wants things to be better than they are, and is rightfully upset
that we are not, as a country, getting there. Bajagringo observes the discourse and chimes in with his two cents, careful not to offend anyone, which
reflects a calm, mature wisdom that I think we all suspect he has. Bajatripper studies and has supported his contentions revealing to me that he has
done his homework and research so as not to posit trash but to support his contentions which to me reflects his intellectual integrity; a form of
civil responsibility to you and me.
Where things go hay wire is that we all have become so adversarial that the dialogue deteriorates to ultimately taking sides and taking pot shots at
each other instead of objectively analyzing the situation and discussing solutions. Such adversarial positioning prevents objective scrutiny of one’s
own side, leads to blindness of one’s own guilty contributions to the problem. We, as a country, cannot come to a consensus. That is exactly what
has stalled this country. That is exactly what has happened in congress. That is exactly what will bleed this country of its ability to succeed.
What is materially needed are objectivity, citation of facts and circumstances supporting sound logical, reasonable, realistic contentions and
solutions. Pot shots at the opposition will get us nowhere and will just widen the divide which is on its way to conquering us all.
[Edited on 6-19-2011 by MitchMan] |
Damn, Mitchman, with sweet words like those for everyone, you should really run for public office.
You aren't, by chance, the Ordy I knew on the USS Indy in Japan in the early 90s? Your thinking reminds me of him.
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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
In my mind and experience I have trouble tying the Boose into the Drugs as the affect it has on people, the Enviorment it creates, the Illegal Money
involved etc.
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Skeet, I can't put into words how impressed I am with your latest posts, some trully progressive thinking taking place in that old noggin' of yours.
Who says you can't teach an Old Koot new tricks?
Just one minor point I'd like to comment on; Skeet would almost be old enough to remember when booze was treated much like drugs are today, complete
with Congressional legislation criminalizing its use, etc. And, just as now with the cartels making unseemly profits from this illegal status, ditto
in the past. Trafficking in illegal booze is supposedly the source of the Kennedy family fortune.
Now imagine a country where much of those currently-illegal profits were taxed. Better yet, since it would be a Sin Tax, we could make that
"taxed-the-hell-out-of." Now, there's a tax that's bound to be popular with EVERYONE (I know I wouldn't complain any about having to [theoretically
speaking, of course] pay it).
I dare say we'd have enough money to finance both the wars-for-resource-adquisitions in the Middle East AND that quasi-socialist-regulated-capitalist
state I'm personally so fond of.
My next drink, I want to remember to toast your suddenly-clear thinking, Skeet, or whoever you are (damn, I just couldn't resist).
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
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Mitchman, I meant to quote your post, which I greatly admire and appreciate.
Very well said indeed. Differences are inevitable, what we do have is control over how we frame and respond to it.
We have many very important issues to address in the USofA as we move forward. Reasonable people can and do disagree. A full hearing on the subject
allows us all to learn.
I also appreciate what you have said about Skeet's assertion of the significance of values and his observations about some of the changes he has
observed that are indeed eroding our civility. I have failed to acknowledge that perspective as you have done so well.
Great post.
Iflyfish
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajatripper
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
In my mind and experience I have trouble tying the Boose into the Drugs as the affect it has on people, the Enviorment it creates, the Illegal Money
involved etc.
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Skeet, I can't put into words how impressed I am with your latest posts, some trully progressive thinking taking place in that old noggin' of yours.
Who says you can't teach an Old Koot new tricks?
Just one minor point I'd like to comment on; Skeet would almost be old enough to remember when booze was treated much like drugs are today, complete
with Congressional legislation criminalizing its use, etc. And, just as now with the cartels making unseemly profits from this illegal status, ditto
in the past. Trafficking in illegal booze is supposedly the source of the Kennedy family fortune.
Now imagine a country where much of those currently-illegal profits were taxed. Better yet, since it would be a Sin Tax, we could make that
"taxed-the-hell-out-of." Now, there's a tax that's bound to be popular with EVERYONE (I know I wouldn't complain any about having to [theoretically
speaking, of course] pay it).
I dare say we'd have enough money to finance both the wars-for-resource-adquisitions in the Middle East AND that quasi-socialist-regulated-capitalist
state I'm personally so fond of.
My next drink, I want to remember to toast your suddenly-clear thinking, Skeet, or whoever you are (damn, I just couldn't resist).
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[Edited on 6-21-2011 by Iflyfish]
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Skeet/Loreto
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IFish with Worms!!
There are many things in this ole World today that are troublesome to me as a Citizen; I think that I will try to list them; Keep in mind my
references are from Lifes Experience.
Major Problem for the People of this Great Country.
The Lack of Parental Control and teaching our Children the Basics of Life.
Turning over to the Schools and Govt. Agencies our Responsibility.
When I as a small child would walk home from school I was taught by my other school mates and parents to be Careful of the RattleSnakes which Hung
around the sides of the Paths.
This taught me to be OBSERVANT and to see what is going on around me.
Now days the use of handheld instruments are bEcoming and ADDICITON.
This Addicition is far worst than Boose or DOPE!
I observe Mothers and Fathers opening the back door of the Car allowing their Children to step out, sometimes very close to Traffic while still
operating their IPOD. They never look up and Observe!!
If we look further ahead I can forsee in the Future that when a Child is Born they will have an Antenna implanted in the top of their head. This will
allow the GPS to direct them to the Toliet!!
Over the years Boose has taken its Toll in the lives of our Citizens but for me What I have seen that is just as bad is "Gambling".
I was in Montana when Kino came in Big and watched as Familes became sperated due to the Parents leaving them in the Car while Mom and Pop when in to
Gamble.
Here in the State of Texas Casino Gambling with Money is aganist the Law. Why?? Because the Baptist will not let it be voted in! Thank the Good Lord.
So now to get down to DOPE. I do not think we can put Boose and DOPE. together.
Over the years People have to some extent be able to Control BOOSE, but DOPE with its basic CRiminality is different, even if we make POT Legal, just
look at what happens when Youngsters somke a little Pot then want to try something different.
I am sure many of you have seen the results. Coke, Crack, Extasey, Window-Pane etc.
The use of and over use of BOOSE costs a Person with their Life and Sickness as they get older.
DOPE causes the Death and Sickness right away and seems to spread to those around a person Faster.
Fishing with Insects; I think, sadly, that the only solution to DOPE is the complete changeing of our Society,
Gob of Worms
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Bajamatic
Senior Nomad
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Alcoholism and Drug abuse are both diseases. Trying to argue that one is better than the other probably points to a drinking problem.
yuletide
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
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Mood: undecided
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I'm one sick puppy!
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Skeet/Loreto
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Matic.
Please Define "Drinking Problem"?
There are still areas here in the Texas Panhandle that are DRY.
When I was going to school here in Amarillo, there was no Drinking problem or DOPE Problem.
Why did we as youngsters not have the problems??
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Bajamatic
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Which youngster are you referring to? I was talking about an 80 year old who seems to think alcoholism isn't really an issue, but pot smoking, with
its basic criminality, is a major societal disaster.
I was under the impression that you weren't a big fan of experts and fact-mongers who lack actual practical experience with that which they study.
Maybe you should partake in a field experiment before you go claiming knowledge.
yuletide
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drarroyo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajamatic
Alcoholism and Drug abuse are both diseases. Trying to argue that one is better than the other probably points to a drinking problem.
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 . Jajajajajajaajajja
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Skeet/Loreto
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Matic: I was talking about what I have seen and experienced over the 80 years of Life. Nothing More.
I think that as Drinking progressed over the years we have been able to somewhat control its use.
If you check the Criminal records you will see that the more violent Crimes are committed by the DOPERS. That is Facts not what some Stat Monger is
saying,
It seems today that the Youngster who does not have or did not have a good realationship with his parents is more prone to do DOPE!
It is the Parents we need to work on. But they too are involved in DOPE so resist any change in their Life.
How Sad!
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Bajamatic
Senior Nomad
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whats the difference between your stat and a stat that says the population of bluefin tuna is nearly extinct? Just curious how to see the difference
between facts presented by enviro-nuts, or whatever you called them, and actual social and biological scientists. Because I'm getting confused here.
Also, more people go to jail for drunk driving than anything. FYI.
[Edited on 6-22-2011 by Bajamatic]
yuletide
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MitchMan
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Alcohol and dope are both very strong and addictive intoxicants. The physical and phsychological differences are not enough to put each in different
categories of evil or capability for damage. The only significant difference is social, that is, alcohol is simply more socially acceptable, that's
why it is legal. To say that the differences between alcohol and dope with regard to their addictive and intoxication efect is sufficient enough to
merit putting alcohol in the category of "acceptable" and dope as "unacceptable" is plainly and simply an error and is no more than a gross
rationalization.
Skeet, I don't mean to disagree with you as to the deleterious affect of intoxicants to our society, I just disagree with arguments that sets alcohol
apart from dope representing alcohol as not as bad as dope. I see them as substantially equivalent, eccept for the socal acceptability of alcohol and
all the ramifications of that.
[Edited on 6-22-2011 by MitchMan]
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oxxo
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Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by BajamaticJust curious how to see the difference between facts presented by enviro-nuts, or whatever you called them,
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I call them farsighted, environmentally conscious patriots.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
I just disagree with arguments that sets alcohol apart from dope representing alcohol as not as bad as dope. I see them as substantially equivalent,
eccept for the socal acceptability of alcohol and all the ramifications of that.
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I'm not joining the arguement. I just thought this would be a good place to ask; Many imbibers tend to drink in moderation. Many.
Can the same be said about drug users?
Just curious.
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