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BajaGringo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
I just disagree with arguments that sets alcohol apart from dope representing alcohol as not as bad as dope. I see them as substantially equivalent,
eccept for the socal acceptability of alcohol and all the ramifications of that.
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I'm not joining the arguement. I just thought this would be a good place to ask; Many imbibers tend to drink in moderation. Many.
Can the same be said about drug users?
Just curious. |
I used to think not but a good friend (who is a teaching physician at UCLA Medical Center) assures me that there are lots of "functioning" drug users
out there; occasional / recreational users of everything from weed to coke to heroine.
I had been under the assumption that most drugs stronger than weed were highly addictive and avoiding that addiction would be very difficult.
The problem he tells me is that we rarely hear about those who manage the balance of drug usage / functioning in society because of the stigma
involved.
He also said that a surprise drug testing sweep of LAPD, county court judges, Sheriff deputies, probation officers and high ranking, Los Angeles
elected officials would raise a lot of eyebrows.
Who knows...
[Edited on 6-22-2011 by BajaGringo]
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
assures me that there are lots of "functioning" drug users out there; occasional / recreational users of everything from weed to coke to heroine.
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Ron......I should have been more clear. My question concerned the degree of use during a specific episode.
Drinkers may sip slowly from a glass of wine in a two hour period, but I'm wondering if drug ingestion is regularly "sipped" in a moderate way
throughout an event or is an abbreviated "high" out of the question?
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Bajatripper
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| Quote: |
I'm not joining the arguement. I just thought this would be a good place to ask; Many imbibers tend to drink in moderation. Many.
Can the same be said about drug users?
Just curious. |
Absolutely! I had an uncle who only smoked pot on special social occasions. But he was a hard-core alcoholic every day of his adult life, one of those
people who could drink all day and yet, didn't look drunk.
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Iflyfish
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Having worked in both Mental Health and Corrections I can assure you that there are indeed recreational users of drugs of all classes who are not
addicted, this includes Alcohol, Marijuana, Heroin, Cocaine, Amphetamnes, the works. Use does not equal addiction. I can also assure you that use of
these drugs is not tied to a particular social class. I have learned this from my life experience Skeet as well as read extensively on the subject
including many studies that support these conclusions.
I am not recommending any of these drugs to anyone. There are obviously some people who are prone to addicion due to differences in how these drugs
are metabolized and how often they are used. The addict is often the last to know that their used of these drugs in having a negative affect on home
life, work or significant relationships. When any of these substances create a problem in any of these areas then one can consider oneself to have a
problem with these substances. If one either has difficulty stopping (either stopping at a predetermined amount, or not being able to spend
significant time with out the subsance) the use of these substances then there is a problem or an addiction. Addictions are classified in stages and
there is a significant literature on that subject.
For some their genetic dispositon affects their capacity to metabolize Alcohol. Many Native Americans and Japanese are not able to metabolize Alcohol
in the way that it is normally metabolized and their is a heightened predisposition to alcoholism.
There are people who for constitutional or emotional reasons are prone to emotional instability or psychosis. These people can have a significant
problem with marijuana.
People with ADHD who are treated with Adderall are LESS likely to abuse other drugs as evidenced by a recent Harvard Medical School study, something
like 84% less likely. People with ADHD tend to self medicate and when they have an appropriate medication that activates the frontal lobes they no
longer have a need to medicate with other drugs.
In my own Clinical Practice I always asked people to tell me what their drug of choice was. This choice can often be a clue as to what area of the
brain a person is trying to mediate. People with over active cingular gyrus, the part of the brain that when it becomes over active causes people to
"get stuck on things" tend to like marijuana as it can calm these areas of the brain by generating what in Electroencephalogical terms is called an
Alpha State.
The most common forms of ADHD, childhood and adult, find that the stimulants like Ritalin and Adderall make them feel normal, not high, not
stimulated but NORMAL. This is because areas of the brain, often the frontal lobes, which DEACTIVATE under concentration, actually engage under
concentration when blood flow is increased to those areas by the use of these stimulant medications. For an excellent elaboration of these findings
read Daniel Amen, M.D. You can find his website on the internet. He is the author of Change Your Brain, Change Your Life. He has identified six
subtypes of ADD and the various medication regimes most useful in their treatment.
My point is that our brains differ and some people can handle these substances better than others while some are addicted as a result of very little
use.
Iflyfishwithartificialfliescausetherealonesarehardtokeeponmyline
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
I just disagree with arguments that sets alcohol apart from dope representing alcohol as not as bad as dope. I see them as substantially equivalent,
eccept for the socal acceptability of alcohol and all the ramifications of that.
|
I'm not joining the arguement. I just thought this would be a good place to ask; Many imbibers tend to drink in moderation. Many.
Can the same be said about drug users?
Just curious. |
I used to think not but a good friend (who is a teaching physician at UCLA Medical Center) assures me that there are lots of "functioning" drug users
out there; occasional / recreational users of everything from weed to coke to heroine.
I had been under the assumption that most drugs stronger than weed were highly addictive and avoiding that addiction would be very difficult.
The problem he tells me is that we rarely hear about those who manage the balance of drug usage / functioning in society because of the stigma
involved.
He also said that a surprise drug testing sweep of LAPD, county court judges, Sheriff deputies, probation officers and high ranking, Los Angeles
elected officials would raise a lot of eyebrows.
Who knows...
[Edited on 6-22-2011 by BajaGringo] |
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Pescador
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oxxo
I call them farsighted, environmentally conscious patriots. |
Do I note a strong biased position here, as the "Teapublicans" are all right wing zealots?
And you might not like calling farsighted, environmentally conscious patriots "Left wing environmental tree hugging wackos" ?
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Skeet/Loreto
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Gentlemen and Scholars:
In referring to the diferances in Boose and DOPE I was eluding to the Results of Boose aa opposed to the results of DOPE.
It seems to me in my years that Criminal Acts are more serious with DOPERS. Am I wrong.?? It has shown that DWI's do deter drivers.
What deters DOPERS? Does not appear anything can deter a Druggie when he gets the stuff in his system.
It is difficult for me to believe that if DOPE is Legalized that 50 years from now our Society will be the same and that DOPE will be used like
Boose.'That the same effects on our Society will occurr.
I think that the use of DOPE is killing more Children than the Use of Boose. What say you???
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Iflyfish
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Here is a site that lays out statistics on morbidity in the USofA. I think you will find this interesting as you consider the relative dangers various
drugs.
My recommendation is that we all eat more fruits and vegetables and exercise more. For recreation pick a poison that you can tolerate in moderation
and if its use starts to cause problems in your life, decrease or stop use of these substances.
Love the video! I have watched mice in Skinner boxes choose electrical self stimulation of the pleasure centers of the brain over food and sex, they
hit the lever till they died in their tracks. This is the underlying neurology of addiction, rats don't have moral values, as far as we can determine.
http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30
(2000 - leading causes of death) "The leading causes of death in 2000 were tobacco (435,000 deaths; 18.1% of total US deaths), poor diet and physical
inactivity (400,000 deaths; 16.6%), and alcohol consumption (85,000 deaths; 3.5%). Other actual causes of death were microbial agents (75,000), toxic
agents (55,000), motor vehicle crashes (43,000), incidents involving firearms (29,000), sexual behaviors (20,000), and illicit use of drugs (17,000)."
Correction: According to a correction published by the Journal on January 19, 2005, "On page 1240, in Table 2, '400,000 (16.6)' deaths for 'poor diet
and physical inactivity' in 2000 should be '365,000 (15.2).' A dagger symbol should be added to 'alcohol consumption' in the body of the table and a
dagger footnote should be added with 'in 1990 data, deaths from alcohol-related crashes are included in alcohol consumption deaths, but not in motor
vehicle deaths. In 2000 data, 16,653 deaths from alcohol-related crashes are included in both alcohol consumption and motor vehicle death categories."
Source:
Mokdad, Ali H., PhD, James S. Marks, MD, MPH, Donna F. Stroup, PhD, MSc, Julie L. Gerberding, MD, MPH, "Actual Causes of Death in the United States,
2000," Journal of the American Medical Association, (March 10, 2004), G225 Vol. 291, No. 10, p. 1238, 1240.
http://proxy.baremetal.com/csdp.org/research/1238.pdf
Source for Correction: Journal of the American Medical Association, Jan. 19, 2005, Vol. 293, No. 3, p. 298.
1. (1998 - marijuana)
"3. The most obvious concern when dealing with drug safety is the possibility of lethal effects. Can the drug cause death?
"4. Nearly all medicines have toxic, potentially lethal effects. But marijuana is not such a substance. There is no record in the extensive medical
literature describing a proven, documented cannabis-induced fatality.
"5. This is a remarkable statement. First, the record on marijuana encompasses 5,000 years of human experience. Second, marijuana is now used daily by
enormous numbers of people throughout the world. Estimates suggest that from twenty million to fifty million Americans routinely, albeit illegally,
smoke marijuana without the benefit of direct medical supervision. Yet, despite this long history of use and the extraordinarily high numbers of
social smokers, there are simply no credible medical reports to suggest that consuming marijuana has caused a single death.
"6. By contrast aspirin, a commonly used, over-the-counter medicine, causes hundreds of deaths each year.
"7. Drugs used in medicine are routinely given what is called an LD-50. The LD-50 rating indicates at what dosage fifty percent of test animals
receiving a drug will die as a result of drug induced toxicity. A number of researchers have attempted to determine marijuana's LD-50 rating in test
animals, without success. Simply stated, researchers have been unable to give animals enough marijuana to induce death.
"8. At present it is estimated that marijuana's LD-50 is around 1:20,000 or 1:40,000. In layman terms this means that in order to induce death a
marijuana smoker would have to consume 20,000 to 40,000 times as much marijuana as is contained in one marijuana cigarette. NIDA-supplied marijuana
cigarettes weigh approximately .9 grams. A smoker would theoretically have to consume nearly 1,500 pounds of marijuana within about fifteen minutes to
induce a lethal response.
"9. In practical terms, marijuana cannot induce a lethal response as a result of drug-related toxicity."
Source:
US Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration, "In the Matter of Marijuana Rescheduling Petition" (Docket #86-22), September 6, 1988, p.
56-57.
http://druglibrary.net/olsen/MEDICAL/YOUNG/young4.html
2. (1999 - marijuana) "Indeed, epidemiological data indicate that in the general population marijuana use is not associated with increased mortality."
Source:
Janet E. Joy, Stanley J. Watson, Jr., and John A Benson, Jr., "Marijuana and Medicine: Assessing the Science Base," Division of Neuroscience and
Behavioral Research, Institute of Medicine (Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 1999), p. 109.
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309071550&page=109
Iflyfishinaweoftheexpenseanddestructivenessofthewarondrugs
[Edited on 6-22-2011 by Iflyfish]
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Skeet/Loreto
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Fish" The post well said but that is not the Point!!!
It is the Acts of DOPERS and the Terrible RESULTS that I am referring too.
People eat to much Fat, get Fat and Die. In doing that they do not commit acts that kill other peoples Children..
So, tell me Fish. What causes People to become DOPERS???
Cannot face Reality?
Scared of Life??
Weak Minded?
Uneducated??
It is what it does to a Person to make them lose Control of their Minds and Bodies.
Do you Trust a DOPER?? I do not!
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Iflyfish
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Human beings are addictive organisms. We can become addicted to substances, people and activities. The issue is when do these things become a problem
in our lives.
We use drugs, sex and rock and roll to change our feelings. Drugs, sex and rock and roll feel good. I include classical music with the rock and roll.
On a Sunday morning I prefer Mozart. On the road I prefer Buddy Guy and Creadance Clearwater Revival. Sometimes Mrsfish says I play them music too
loud. When this happens I am experiencing a problem with that particular drug, in this case music. I turn the sound down to decrease the social
destructiveness of my musical drug use and things go much better on the domestic front. I use the same strategy for other potentialy addictive
substances, processes i.e. computer use, and activities.
As to comparing the relative destructive acts of people intoxicated with various drugs I again would refer you to the study.
Iflyfishwithcredanceclearwaterrevivalinmyears
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajatripper
Absolutely! I had an uncle who only smoked pot on special social occasions. But he was a hard-core alcoholic every day of his adult life, one of those
people who could drink all day and yet, didn't look drunk. |
OK....Let me rephrase the question.
Drinkers can at times, at a party for instance, drink moderatly with no goal in mind to alter their consciousness. They don't drink for effect.
My question is, do some dopers fall into that same catagory or is effect the only plausible goal?
Seems to me that, in our culture, alcohol is a social tool as well as a social stimulant whereas drugs are solely a means to an end which would, to
me, make them unidentical by definition. They are not the same in any way until abuse is added to the equation.
WTF....who cares.
.
[Edited on 6-22-2011 by DENNIS]
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Skeet/Loreto
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Fish:
I cannot think of anything that I am Addicted too;
Maybe I have missed out on some Life.
I loved to go to Mammouth Mnt. Ski Area and Ski the Cornice! What a Thrill, and that was many years ago.
My ultimate Thrill is saying or doing something that intices another Person to change their lives and become better people.
By the Way Mozart was a Mason. I at times in my live have been very close to being addicted to Dancin, and Girls, Flying, Skiing,Fishing the Sierras,
and Montana with a Flyrod and a Gob of Worms.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
By the Way Mozart was a Mason. |
So what?
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choyero
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a flyrod with a gob of worms
you couldn't cast 10' without the worms flying off, but then again you were probably at the trout farm.
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KurtG
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Mood: Press On Regardless!!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
I just disagree with arguments that sets alcohol apart from dope representing alcohol as not as bad as dope. I see them as substantially equivalent,
eccept for the socal acceptability of alcohol and all the ramifications of that.
|
I'm not joining the arguement. I just thought this would be a good place to ask; Many imbibers tend to drink in moderation. Many.
Can the same be said about drug users?
Just curious. |
The quick answer to your question is yes they do.
Nobody seems to be addressing the difference between pot and other harder much more harmful drugs. While I neither drink alcohol or use other drugs I
know many who smoke pot in moderation and use no other drug. Pot to me seems pretty harmless, can't overdose since the smoker just takes a little nap
long before getting to any toxic level. Frankly, I prefer pot smokers to alcohol drinkers, I have NEVER seen anybody smoke a little pot and then go
pick a fight, but violence in the local bars by drinkers is common.
I believe it is time to call off the "war on drugs" as a lost cause and treat drugs as a public health problem as do many other countries. Those
countries don't seem to have any higher level of drug usage and don't waste the incredible amounts of money that we do. It would also help take the
profit motive out of the drug trade which would benefit society in both supplier and consumer nations. This has been recently advocated by such
radicals as Paul Volker, Jimmy Carter and the magazine "The Economist." The war on drugs has created an industry of law enforcement which sees job
security, in California the prison guards union is one of the strongest foes of legalizing pot while refusing to consider drug testing for their
members. In the county where I live most all public workers are subject to drug testing except for the police and sheriff's deputies whose unions
refuse to consider it. Ironic, no?
Last weekend in San Luis Obispo County we had four deaths attributed to drunk driving, didn't hear of any deaths from drug usage.
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BajaGringo
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Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
assures me that there are lots of "functioning" drug users out there; occasional / recreational users of everything from weed to coke to heroine.
|
Ron......I should have been more clear. My question concerned the degree of use during a specific episode.
Drinkers may sip slowly from a glass of wine in a two hour period, but I'm wondering if drug ingestion is regularly "sipped" in a moderate way
throughout an event or is an abbreviated "high" out of the question? |
Good question but I haven't a clue. My vast drug history is limited to a toke back in HS. Never liked smoking so pot made no sense either.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by KurtG
didn't hear of any deaths from drug usage. |
Perhaps because there's no chapter of MADD, Mothers Against Drug Death, in your neighborhood.
Alcohol death denotes a failure of the individual.
Dope death denotes a failure of society. No one wants to hear about it.
Anyway....thanks for your answer.
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Skeet/Loreto
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Choyero:
I have caught more and different Fish than you have ever seen. I can take a Gob of Worms thread on an Egg Hook and cast just as far a necessary to
catch some mighty fine fish.
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Skeet/Loreto
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I as an ole timer often think about "What happened??
When I was growing up and up to the 60's I did not see a large amount of Drug use. Even when i was working hollywood and So, Central La was the use of
Drus as rampart as it is today.
I think that Movies had something to do with it,''I think the spread of the "If it Feels Good, Just do it" mentality had something to do with it.
Then I think that the "Lack of Parental control" had a lot to do with it as well as the "911 mentality" and the Govt control of everything from
Diapers to DayCare helped along the Way.
We as a People need to learn to be Strong and Firm. not Weak and let someone else do the Job.
The DOPERS use BOOSE as an Excuse for their use of DRUGS. It is just the weak mentality of DOPERS.
Could it be in the Genes??
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oxxo
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Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
Do I note a strong biased position here, as the "Teapublicans" are all right wing zealots? |
Only if you want to argue about it.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
It is just the weak mentality of DOPERS.
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Really?????
http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/cocaine/
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