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oxxo
Banned
Posts: 2347
Registered: 5-17-2006
Location: Wherever I am, I'm there
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Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
I cannot think of anything that I am Addicted too; |
Red Flag, Red Flag!
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choyero
Nomad
Posts: 152
Registered: 4-21-2011
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Choyero:
I have caught more and different Fish than you have ever seen. I can take a Gob of Worms thread on an Egg Hook and cast just as far a necessary to
catch some mighty fine fish. |
If you can beat 140 tons in 5 weeks, you got me.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Dennis, you wrote:
"OK....Let me rephrase the question.
Drinkers can at times, at a party for instance, drink moderatly with no goal in mind to alter their consciousness. They don't drink for effect.
My question is, do some dopers fall into that same catagory or is effect the only plausible goal?"
Seems to me that, in our culture, alcohol is a social tool as well as a social stimulant whereas drugs are solely a means to an end which would, to
me, make them unidentical by definition. They are not the same in any way until abuse is added to the equation.
I now understand your question.
I believe that your premise is wrong. People do drink in order to change their emotional state. "I want to unwind, I want to relax, I want to kick
back and have a brew, a drink would sure go good right now, let's celebrate and have a drink". Now substitute the term joint, toke etc. to the term
alcohol above and you get the picture.
Alcohol relieved us of inhibitions and people like to let go of their inhibitions and to feel good. If people are using a substance to "feel good"
then they are altering their mood, affect or consciousness. Alcohol in small doses creates a mild euphoria, in large doses a stupor. Ditto with Pot. A
drug is a drug is a drug in this sense.
The only difference that I can see is that pot is very fast acting in making people "feel good".
I too have pondered this question and it is an important one to clarify.
Iflyfishandhopeonedaytokickbackandthrowdownapacificowithdennis
[Edited on 6-22-2011 by Iflyfish]
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MitchMan
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajatripper
Absolutely! I had an uncle who only smoked pot on special social occasions. But he was a hard-core alcoholic every day of his adult life, one of those
people who could drink all day and yet, didn't look drunk |
When I ran restaurants, night clubs and c-cktail lounges, there was a regular at the bar, every day, his name was Bill, mid to late forties I guess.
He was a 'salt of the earth' blue collar quietly friendly and unassuming type of guy; very 'matter of fact' in manner. He would come in and sit and
sip on bourbon for a few hours every day. He only spoke if he was spoken to. He always had this "matter of fact' kind of expression on his face.
One Saturday, he came at about 2pm. Didn't pay too much attention to him...all day...until closing time at 11 pm. I came into the lounge and
announced last call. When everybody left, Bill was still on his stool at the end of the bar, with his usual matter of fact look on his face. When I
went up to him to take his glass away, he didn't flinch, his posture was fixed, his eyes did not follow me, he didn't blink, he was stone cold drunk
and in a complete stupor, but you couldn't tell it looking at him.
My point is this, when there is a frequent use of drugs and alcohol, many 'users' can educate and condition their bodies, manner, movement, gestures,
posture, speech and even attitude to simulate sobriety. It is a skill that is developed.
I had a long time friend who was a CPA tax expert, we worked together for years. He did pot every day of his life, in the mornng before work, at
lunch time, and for most of the evening after work with some beers. At work, he was known as a fast accountant. In accountancy, you cannot last a
week if you are prone to mistakes, and in accounting, public or private, mistakes always come to light eventually. He was a good accountant and was
given big complicated projects to work on, especially in the detailed complicated insurance industry. His personal life was always in the toilet, but
professionally, he was spot on...as a tax accountant!
On Christmas eve, right around midnight, I left a c-cktail lounge in Dana Point right at midnight, drove home going north on PCH. I came upon an
horrific accident that had just occurred minutes before I got there. A young preppy looking guy driving a 300ZX had broadsided a sedan, the sedan had
a woman adult driver and a teenage female passenger. The sedan had been hit so hard that it flipped over and was upside down in the middle of the
street, hood was on fire, and gas was leaking and running all under and around the upside down car. A young man was unsuccessfully pullng on the
driver side door and yelling at the occupants to get out. However, flames engulfed the car and the young man had to step back and give up trying to
open the door. As I was walking toward the accident I looked into the 300ZX. The front end was completely smashed. He was obviously driving at a
high speed. The driver was unconscious and there was a six pack of Budweiser on the passenger floor with three unopened cans and three empty cans.
The next morning I read that the victim woman was driving her teenage baby sitter home when they were hit by the ZX and were killed. The ZX had left
the same bar I was at. The mother and father of the teenage victim came upon the after math of the accident when they were out looking for their
daughter at 2 am Christmas morning. As the newpaper said, it was somehting that was the worst nightmare for a parent.
Sorry, but I see arguments trying to make distinctions between alcohol and drugs as specious.
[Edited on 6-22-2011 by MitchMan]
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Bajatripper
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| Quote: | Originally posted by KurtG
Nobody seems to be addressing the difference between pot and other harder much more harmful drugs. While I neither drink alcohol or use other drugs I
know many who smoke pot in moderation and use no other drug. Pot to me seems pretty harmless, can't overdose since the smoker just takes a little nap
long before getting to any toxic level. Frankly, I prefer pot smokers to alcohol drinkers, I have NEVER seen anybody smoke a little pot and then go
pick a fight, but violence in the local bars by drinkers is common.
I believe it is time to call off the "war on drugs" as a lost cause and treat drugs as a public health problem as do many other countries. Those
countries don't seem to have any higher level of drug usage and don't waste the incredible amounts of money that we do. It would also help take the
profit motive out of the drug trade which would benefit society in both supplier and consumer nations. This has been recently advocated by such
radicals as Paul Volker, Jimmy Carter and the magazine "The Economist." The war on drugs has created an industry of law enforcement which sees job
security, in California the prison guards union is one of the strongest foes of legalizing pot while refusing to consider drug testing for their
members. In the county where I live most all public workers are subject to drug testing except for the police and sheriff's deputies whose unions
refuse to consider it. Ironic, no?
Last weekend in San Luis Obispo County we had four deaths attributed to drunk driving, didn't hear of any deaths from drug usage.
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Excellent post, Kurt. I've always thought the so-called "War on Drugs" was just a way for people with "palanca" in government to get some of those
welfare-for-the-rich distributions of cash, an industry-in-itself, so to speak (the best example of that is the privatization/management-for-profit of
our prison system--talk about a conflict of interest!). And, as an added bonus, it has allowed for the criminalization of drugs that are primarily
used by the urban poor (such as crack cocaine), while letting our justice system go light on the enforcement/prosecution of the drug-of-choice of the
yuppie crowd, cocaine.
How else to explain the overt ignoring of all the evidence that clearly demonstrates that our approach is all wrong? Studies of places where drug use
is legal prove that beyond argument.
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
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Location: Mission Viejo
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
assures me that there are lots of "functioning" drug users out there; occasional / recreational users of everything from weed to coke to heroine.
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Ron......I should have been more clear. My question concerned the degree of use during a specific episode.
Drinkers may sip slowly from a glass of wine in a two hour period, but I'm wondering if drug ingestion is regularly "sipped" in a moderate way
throughout an event or is an abbreviated "high" out of the question? |
Good question but I haven't a clue. My vast drug history is limited to a toke back in HS. Never liked smoking so pot made no sense either.
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depends on the individual... some smoke a LOT some smoke a LITTLE... some pot has more AI in it.. than others... some can smoke all night, others
not...
Hate to see pot in the same discussion has "smack" as it isn't the same drug, by a long ways... as is coke et al... each drug, has its own
pharmacology as does the individual's own body's chemical reaction to the introduction of a "chemical substance" ....... introduced by what ever
means, into into same ...
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
I believe that your premise is wrong. People do drink in order to change their emotional state. |
Not all, Rick. As a therapist, I think you know that. The very moderate drinkers in a social situation may drink because it's the thing to do at that
moment. They're satisfying a different need than the therapeutic.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Dennis,
I understand what you are saying, however alcohol is a mild euphoric and used in a social situation as a "social lubricant". This mild euphoria and
reduction of inhibition is why people have a social drink, otherwise they would have water, juice or soda. I don't believe that most people are
conscious of this motivation to change their mood, relax, increase enjoyment by decreasing inhibition.
Iflyfish
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motoged
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6481
Registered: 7-31-2006
Location: Kamloops, BC
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Mood: Gettin' Better
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
I believe that your premise is wrong. People do drink in order to change their emotional state. |
Not all, Rick. As a therapist, I think you know that. The very moderate drinkers in a social situation may drink because it's the thing to do at that
moment. They're satisfying a different need than the therapeutic. |
I have been a therapist for 37 years, have run a residential drug treatment program for 4 years in the late 80's, and presently provide substance
abuse counselling in my private practice.
My position is that alcohol is a drug and is used as such. The "Drug and alcohol" dichotomy is a false one and likely developed at a point in time
when treatment for alcohol abuse was more established than was "drug" treatment.
This misleading misnomer is unfortunate. The social prevalence of alcohol consumption, its legalization, the commercial gains made by alcohol
"dealers", and the litany of rationalizations and justifications that approve it are evident.
"Moderate drinkers" ???? Okay....what about "moderate tokers/ moderate snorters" ????
Drinking "socially" because "it is the thing to do" is the rationalization/ justification often used by adolescents as well as adult "users" to
rationalize their use.
The use is mood-altering....a chemical fact.
The moralizing about it is a different conversation.
Don't believe everything you think....
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by motoged
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
I believe that your premise is wrong. People do drink in order to change their emotional state. |
Not all, Rick. As a therapist, I think you know that. The very moderate drinkers in a social situation may drink because it's the thing to do at that
moment. They're satisfying a different need than the therapeutic. |
I have been a therapist for 37 years, have run a residential drug treatment program for 4 years in the late 80's, and presently provide substance
abuse counselling in my private practice.
My position is that alcohol is a drug and is used as such. The "Drug and alcohol" dichotomy is a false one and likely developed at a point in time
when treatment for alcohol abuse was more established than was "drug" treatment.
This misleading misnomer is unfortunate. The social prevalence of alcohol consumption, its legalization, the commercial gains made by alcohol
"dealers", and the litany of rationalizations and justifications that approve it are evident.
"Moderate drinkers" ???? Okay....what about "moderate tokers/ moderate snorters" ????
Drinking "socially" because "it is the thing to do" is the rationalization/ justification often used by adolescents as well as adult "users" to
rationalize their use.
The use is mood-altering....a chemical fact.
The moralizing about it is a different conversation. |
I wish I could write this succinctly.
IflyfishwithsuperfluousverbageandwouldliketofishadayaslongasIstay
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
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| Quote: | Originally posted by motoged
"Moderate drinkers" ???? Okay....what about "moderate tokers/ moderate snorters" ????
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That was my original question.....almost verbatim and it remains unanswered even by you experts who are so effing stuck in your comfortable ways that
you refuse to take the leash off your brain.
Gawwwdammm....I lost count of the Psychiatrists who sat across a desk from me who where in need a tune-up ass-kicking.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
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Moderate tokers? Yea, they don't inhale.
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bajalou
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Location: South of the broder
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I spent a few years in the late 70s and 80s being involved with a drug rehab organization in San Mateo county CA. Talking with residents and others
(including family members) I was told many many times that it was much easier to get off heroin than alcohol. The denial factor of alcohol abusers is
unreal.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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drarroyo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
That was my original question.....almost verbatim and it remains unanswered even by you experts who are so effing stuck in your comfortable ways that
you refuse to take the leash off your brain.
Gawwwdammm....I lost count of the Psychiatrists who sat across a desk from me who where in need a tune-up ass-kicking. |
there you have it folks.
any questions?
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motoged
Elite Nomad
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Location: Kamloops, BC
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
That was my original question.....almost verbatim and it remains unanswered even by you experts who are so effing stuck in your comfortable ways that
you refuse to take the leash off your brain.
Gawwwdammm....I lost count of the Psychiatrists who sat across a desk from me who where in need a tune-up ass-kicking. |
Dennis,
I guess I am not sure what your "original question" is/was.
I am not stuck in a "comfortable way"....I am just clear what my present position/understanding is. It might change again as time goes on and my
perceptions change....as they do as I adapt as an organism.
Yeah, I have met my share of therapists who need a good ass-kicking, too.......and I get mine kicked from time-to-time.
Sometimes those are personal wake-up calls.....sometimes they are just crap from an abusive client.
And I have sure an overload experience of wanting to slap around a few clients....
My position presently is:
Folks use a variety of behaviours to cope with being alive:
smoking cigarettes
drinking alcohol
smoking pot
snorting/smoking/injecting cocaine/heroin, meth
gambling
shopping
eating
hoarding
fishing
gardening
reading
socializing (talking) with others
having a pet
etc.
Some of these behaviours become excessive/unbalanced and at that point the behaviour (solution) becomes a problem.
This point of imbalance differs for all individuals based on what evaluative conceptual framework is applied to evaluate the situation (moral,
psychiatric, disease model, harm-reduction model, war on drugs model, etc)
I look at it functionally: What purpose is being served by the behaviour and how is it affecting the person's functioning?
Not all substance use is problematic in my view.
Some is adaptive and functional/acceptable (by my standards);
Some is mal-adaptive and no longer helpful(by my standards....and by others').
People (and other mammals) have used chemistry to alter their experience forever.....mint for the digestion for example.
How we manage such application of chemistry in our lives is the issue....with no particular agreement is the apparent conversation.
Don't believe everything you think....
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
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Goat; Best Post you have ever made.
Now, I need to ask; Is it better to just give up trying to prevent DOPER and accept our Society as it is???
Do we need to try something in the Youngsters beginning that will make it to where he has no "Desire for Drugs. A Chemical that could be injected on
Birth that would stop any future desire for DOPE.
The People who do not use DOPE should not have to Support and pay for those that become a Drag on Society because of their DOPE use and its Criminal
Results.
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Bajamatic
Senior Nomad
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Skeet, it is possible that your posts have become the best part of my day.
yuletide
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Skeet/Loreto
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Sure some good stuff coming from the Nomads!
After all is said and done it does appear that Ole Timers like me must accept the Fact that DOPERS do not want to give up their use. No Matter What.
Therefore we, the non-user accepts that the Weak Minded People want Drugs Legalized so it is easier and cheaper to buy their Drugs.
We must therefore revert to the Survivial of the Fitist and allow them to use.. That way the use of DOPE will increase and DOPERS will die sooner and
Faster.
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motoged
Elite Nomad
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Dennis,
I reread the entire thread and found your question.
Yes, I do believe some people can be minimal or moderate substance users.... Flyfishguy responded before I did and presented this belief eloquently.
Don't believe everything you think....
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Bajamatic
Senior Nomad
Posts: 571
Registered: 8-31-2006
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Also, you've proven yourself to be, hands down, the most myopic human I've ever read.
yuletide
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