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EnsenadaDr
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From someone who is NOT an natural at foreign languages....
You have to live it, read it, breathe it, and talk it before you become fluent...trust me...and even now I am still learning.. | Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
Actually, I have a strong hunch that the lone value of being able to converse in more than one language is being aggrandized...
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The process may be more important than the product.
I took 6 years of German in junior high and high school (I kid you not). Though I was technically competent, never used it in the real world,
couldn't carry on a conversation now if you paid me. But I'm completely convinced that subjecting myself to that process altered the way my mind
works, in a majorly positive way.
No, there's no control group on our pragmatic experience, but it's hard-- for me anyway-- to hang around monolingual and multilingual individuals
without coming some conclusions about the positive effect of breaking the monolingual cage. |
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
And what the heck does it mean when employment requirements stipulate things like "85% English"?  |
That means your employer had best agree with 85% of what you say, and that you keep the other 15% to yourself. 
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vgabndo
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I like to think of myself as "conversant" in Spanish, and have decided that I will NEVER be fluent and refuse to beat myself up about it.
Part of the fun for me is when my Spanglish fails and the smiles and friendship part begins when I start drawing pictures in the dust on my truck!
When we get down to sound effects, the connection is made, and the result WILL be communication between humans where language is the only barrier.
It brings me great joy when I can do this the other way around when a Spanish speaking person needs help in my local super market parking lot. I seek
them out to assist! and to practice, practice, practice.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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Bajatripper
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Sadly, the public school system has become something far different today... social re-engineering young minds into believing in government control and
how bad America is and explorers like Christopher Colunbus were... it is sickening.
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Don't know how to break this to you, David, but you don't need to go through our school system to learn how bad the US government has behaved in the
past and continues to do so in the present. Just pick up a good history book and start reading for yourself, fit the facts together and see what best
explains so many events in history. Every empire goes through the same process of decay.
Contrary to popular belief, "America" has never done anything bad. It has been its politicians that have behaved badly. People of your ilk don't want
to read such stuff in the quest for blissed ignorance. I suppose that's your right, David, but please, quit blaming the school system for finally
beginning to address some of that past. If you were more educated, you'd know that.
The only "social engineering" I see is brought forth from your side of the political spectrum...you know, all that crap about "intelligent design,"
trying to discredit evolution as nothing more than just another theory, the "hoax" of global warming, etc. etc. Republican power holders want to keep
the public ignorant since that is what serves their interests best, hence all of the wedge issues your side is so infamous for. Taking care of the
environment, for example, cuts into the bottom line profits. Much better to convince the ignorant majority that there's nothing to worry about as
corporations happily go about business-as-usual and destroy our human habitat in the name of profit. Ignorance allows people like you to vote against
your best interests and--best of all--to be proud of it.
VIVA LA IGNORANCIA!!!!!
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by Bajatripper]
There most certainly is but one side to every story: the TRUTH. Variations of it are nothing but lies.
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EnsenadaDr
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Fluent...
For all practical purposes, I would think it means that a person has mastered the language well enough to do their job or communicate effectively with
their coworkers and customers. | Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
| Quote: | Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
You have to live it, read it, breathe it, and talk it before you become fluent... |
Agree. Which brings up a
question: What is "fluent"?
And what the heck does it mean when employment requirements stipulate things like "85% English"? |
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Bajatripper
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
Actually, I have a strong hunch that the lone value of being able to converse in more than one language is being aggrandized to give those fortunate
individuals a power that is as nebulous as religion.
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by DENNIS] |
Usually, your arguments leave little to add, Dennis, but not on this thread.
I find it interesting that you'd argue that bilingualism isn't the advantage it is for those who are.
There most certainly is but one side to every story: the TRUTH. Variations of it are nothing but lies.
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Bajatripper
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| Quote: | Originally posted by The Gull
Benefits of Bilingualism (http://www.tcsd.org/education/components/scrapbook/default.p...)
Higher academic achievement on standardized tests (Robinson, 1992; Cooper, 1987; Armstrong & Rogers 1997; etc)
Increased ability in English (Marcos, K., 1998; Dumas, L., 1999)
Beneficial to the development of reading abilities (D'Angiulli, et al., 2001; Diaz, 1982)
Increased general intelligence and IQ scores (Samuels & Friffore, 1979; Peal & Lambert, 1962)
Improved ability to hypothesize in science (Kessler & Quinn, 1980)
Higher SAT and ACT scores (Robinson, 1992; Cooper, 1987; Eddy, 1981; Olsen & Brown, 1992; etc.)
Improved performance at the post-secondary levels (Wiley, 1985)
Improved cognitive abilities (Curtain, 1990; Genesee & Cloud, 1998; Bamford & Mizokawa, 1991; Barik & Swain, 1976; etc.)
Enhanced memory skills (Kormi-Nouri, et al. 2003)
Increased problem solving ability (Stephens & Esquivel, 1997)
Improved verbal and spatial abilities (Diaz, 1982)
Increased cultural awareness and cross-cultural competencies
Expanded career opportunities
These benefits and more can be explored at the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages website, specifically:
http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4524 |
Nice summation of some of the research on the subject, Gull.
Now, I'd like to see someone compile a list of resources that support the benefits of staying monolingual.
There most certainly is but one side to every story: the TRUTH. Variations of it are nothing but lies.
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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajatripper
| Quote: | Originally posted by The Gull
Benefits of Bilingualism (http://www.tcsd.org/education/components/scrapbook/default.p...)
Higher academic achievement on standardized tests (Robinson, 1992; Cooper, 1987; Armstrong & Rogers 1997; etc)
Increased ability in English (Marcos, K., 1998; Dumas, L., 1999)
Beneficial to the development of reading abilities (D'Angiulli, et al., 2001; Diaz, 1982)
Increased general intelligence and IQ scores (Samuels & Friffore, 1979; Peal & Lambert, 1962)
Improved ability to hypothesize in science (Kessler & Quinn, 1980)
Higher SAT and ACT scores (Robinson, 1992; Cooper, 1987; Eddy, 1981; Olsen & Brown, 1992; etc.)
Improved performance at the post-secondary levels (Wiley, 1985)
Improved cognitive abilities (Curtain, 1990; Genesee & Cloud, 1998; Bamford & Mizokawa, 1991; Barik & Swain, 1976; etc.)
Enhanced memory skills (Kormi-Nouri, et al. 2003)
Increased problem solving ability (Stephens & Esquivel, 1997)
Improved verbal and spatial abilities (Diaz, 1982)
Increased cultural awareness and cross-cultural competencies
Expanded career opportunities
These benefits and more can be explored at the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages website, specifically:
http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4524 |
Nice summation of some of the research on the subject, Gull.
Now, I'd like to see someone compile a list of resources that support the benefits of staying monolingual. |
"If God wanted us to be bilingual s/he would have made us bilingual" How's that for an argument? or "Isn't American good enough for you?" or "God
destroyed the Tower of Babble." or "The Constitution and our Bible were written in English and there is nothing else you need to know" Learning
languages like French weakens your moral character" or "if you learn Middle Eastern Languages you are supporting terrorism and Muslimism" or "My daddy
never learned another language, why should I?" or "We should be teaching the three R's and leave the rest to the family" or "What right does the
government have teaching our children heathen languages?" "What, are you trying to act smart or something?" "That research is Left Wing propaganda and
I don't see it in the Bible, so it is just a theory" "That research sounds like the sort of soft headed thinking you find in Berkeley" "The pope and
priests are the only ones who should speak other languages". Did I miss any?
Iflyfish
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Bajatripper
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
And what the heck does it mean when employment requirements stipulate things like "85% English"? |
When an employer gives a "fluency percentage" requirement, it is my understanding that it means that the applicants have to score at a certain level
on standardized tests.
There most certainly is but one side to every story: the TRUTH. Variations of it are nothing but lies.
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Bajatripper
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
"If God wanted us to be bilingual s/he would have made us bilingual" How's that for an argument? or "Isn't American good enough for you?" or "God
destroyed the Tower of Babble." or "The Constitution and our Bible were written in English and there is nothing else you need to know" Learning
languages like French weakens your moral character" or "if you learn Middle Eastern Languages you are supporting terrorism and Muslimism" or "My daddy
never learned another language, why should I?" or "We should be teaching the three R's and leave the rest to the family" or "What right does the
government have teaching our children heathen languages?" "What, are you trying to act smart or something?" "That research is Left Wing propaganda and
I don't see it in the Bible, so it is just a theory" "That research sounds like the sort of soft headed thinking you find in Berkeley" "The pope and
priests are the only ones who should speak other languages". Did I miss any?
Iflyfish |
I think you about covered them all. Thanks.
There most certainly is but one side to every story: the TRUTH. Variations of it are nothing but lies.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajatripper
Usually, your arguments leave little to add, Dennis, but not on this thread.
I find it interesting that you'd argue that bilingualism isn't the advantage it is for those who are. |
Never said anything like that, Steve. My arguement is and has been that being multilingual wont raise cognative abilities as some here want to think
it will, and if it will, there's probably no way to test it.
Of course it is advantageous for communication. Who would argue that, but if a person is able to read and comprehend an item in two languages,
assuming an accurate interpretation is being offered, he's no better off for that ability. To say that he would be better informed or more
introspective would be to say the two items read don't say the same thing. After all, interpretation by the reader has been removed from the
equation.
They [flag waving Mexicans] like to say, "The Labrynth of Solitude" by Paz defies interpretation. Do you believe that? Are there clues to
understanding that flow only in the blood?
.........
"Einstein lived for many years in the United States, and spoke both German and English, but had trouble with spelling in English."
-------
What happened here?
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Cypress
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I know more than a few folks that can't speak good English, they're fourth generation US citizens.
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
My arguement is and has been that being multilingual wont raise cognative abilities as some here want to think it will |
any exercising of the mind raises cognitive abilities. the owners manual for the human mind is 2 simple lines: "use it or lose it" and "do not bathe
brain cells in drugs or toxic chemicals."
capiche??
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by mtgoat666]
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vgabndo
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In my part of the country, out-in-the-open far right wing Christian revolutionary militia groups have made a hook-up with 7 local Sheriffs. One of
their favorite images is of the President peeing on a map of the USA. He's also depicted as the anti-christ.
I don't think that teaching the new scientific paradigm in the schools or recognizing a woman's reproductive rights is any kind of excuse for having
to live in this kind of environment in my America. I don't care how much anyone disagrees with what we the people let happen to our government. Our
government let 1200 new militias take root since OK City. A lot of this is since the GOP let the Assault Weapons Ban lapse under Tom Delay. In my
part of the country is seems the conservatives are really peeved at the Democrats for letting them "elect" G W Bush so he could do all those things
they hate so much!
I'm not convinced that leftist social-engineering in the schools had anything to do with this, and if it did, how could it possibly justify civil
chaos in response?
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by vgabndo]
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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bufeo
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by Iflyfish ..."God destroyed the Tower of Babble." |
Well, first off, it's the Tower of Babel, from the Hebrew.
| Quote: | | ...[the Constitution] and our Bible were written in English and there is nothing else you need to know" |
Your Bible is translated...got that??...translated from Greek and Hebrew ( and a bit of Aramaic) by some scholar who was
multilingual.
In any case, I'm not what one would call an unbiased source, since I spent my military service as a translator (Czech), later continued my service in
the employ of the No Such Agency as a translator (Czech and French). Then, I went on to teach French at the secondary school level for twenty years.
Plus, I enjoy traveling to Mexico and being able to converse, however elementary, with those who do not have a command of English.
I suspect that those who don't see the advantage of having a second (or third) language in all liklihood never will no matter what research or
arguments are put in front of them.
Allen R
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by bufeo]
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Pompano
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Los Angeles' full name is "El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora la Reina de los Angeles de Porciuncula"
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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becoming bilingual has been an interesting journey in discovery for me as one also becomes bi cultural and this affects the WAY you think.
In spanish and french, things are backward...(or maybe it's english that is backward) and I find myself getting tripped up sometimes in english as y
brain has to turn around. Sirena & I...unbenounced to us...speak a combo and mix and match english and spanish words without realizing it. My
brain automatically reaches for the "best" word and out it comes whether that be english or spanish...we dont even notice we switch back and forth. I
find myself thinking Latino in regards to problem solving... meaning thinking outside the box for sure...more creative thinking....kind of looking at
things from a different angle, like backwards which provides a new viewpoint.
I am told (I'm also unaware of this) that my voice raises when I speak spanish and I gesture much much more...am more animated...and I have a lower
voice and more reserved body language when speaking english...weird eh!
I is interesting to watch Izaak absorb 2 languages at once...for example, although he knows both words, he uses doggie for dog and gato for cat...why?
because they sound better? are easier to remember so the brain latches onto that word first?
Sirenita learned to read in english when she was 2 but never studied in english so her writing style is unique...kind of with a latino feeling.
All I know is that it sure is exciting at a later age to feel all those neurons firing up again when learning another language!
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
the owners manual for the human mind is 2 simple lines: "use it or lose it" |
Where did you hear that one? Bingo Night at the Del Webb clubhouse?
If we believe every little caveat we got from granny, you should be blind by now.
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woody with a view
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wrong Dennis! we'd all have hairy palms by now!!!!
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by woody with a view]
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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bufeo
| Quote: | | Originally posted by Iflyfish ..."God destroyed the Tower of Babble." |
Well, first off, it's the Tower of Babel, from the Hebrew.
| Quote: | | ...[the Constitution] and our Bible were written in English and there is nothing else you need to know" |
Your Bible is translated...got that??...translated from Greek and Hebrew ( and a bit of Aramaic) by some scholar who was
multilingual.
In any case, I'm not what one would call an unbiased source, since I spent my military service as a translator (Czech), later continued my service in
the employ of the No Such Agency as a translator (Czech and French). Then, I went on to teach French at the secondary school level for twenty years.
Plus, I enjoy traveling to Mexico and being able to converse, however elementary, with those who do not have a command of English.
I suspect that those who don't see the advantage of having a second (or third) language in all liklihood never will no matter what research or
arguments are put in front of them.
Allen R
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by bufeo] |
Yup, you are right. Just presenting the arguments in the way I often see and hear them presented. I also think that you are right about how bias and
prejudice influence ones capacity for taking in new information. Scripts are generated by making decisions that then are reinforced by only taking in
the information that reinforces the decisions made. I think that some of this is hard wired. Well said.
One of the most unfortunate developments in our public dialogue in my view is the redefinition of logic when mixed with theological i.e. evolution is
ONLY a theory ergo sum of equal intellectual value as scientific research.
Iflyfish
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