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Author: Subject: baja's Sistine Chapel
goldhuntress
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[*] posted on 4-18-2012 at 07:14 PM


Nice photos! Very cool. Thanks for sharing this special find.
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[*] posted on 4-18-2012 at 07:15 PM


Igor,
I also love to create my own thoughts when seeing such things. I once had an anthropology professor who liked to tell us that whenever the researchers had not real idea, they would declare something religious---it covered a lot of possibilities.

And DK, there are a few thousand registered members here, and who knows how many more people look at this forum. Precaution as Igor said, I believe is a good thing. A few years back, my son found the water source for the Mission Doloras in BCS and he would never put it out on an open forum. He would, however share it with certain individuals. A friend many years ago took me to some petroglyphs in the Los Padre Wilderness---a place that he and a partner had "discovered" many years before when they worked for the Forest Service in the back country. Their "discovery" was published in the Forest Service magazine, but not with directions. It is just not worth the risk. Your rather racist statement about who defaces these sites is quite revealing about you.

Igor, one thing that always causes me real thought is how similar so many petroglyhs are from so many different places. The image of a person with arms stretched upward is so common----why? And it is a question for which I wonder if there is an answer.

[Edited on 4-19-2012 by DianaT]




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Skipjack Joe
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[*] posted on 4-18-2012 at 07:37 PM


Diane,

This may sound conceited... I'm a very educated man. I have learned so much and had such a thirst for knowledge. But what I learned in the end is that the most precious knowledge is what I learned on my own. So I'm holding on to that. I find things on my terms and form my own theories. That's immensely satisfying. More than anyone explaining to me what I'm looking at

In fact that's the attraction to photography. Good images are felt, never understood, or analyzed. The viewer will understand your feelings. I seldom shoot images like that cause they require an intensity that's missing. Now I frame it up like a picture and pull the trigger.
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[*] posted on 4-18-2012 at 08:02 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Diane,

This may sound conceited... I'm a very educated man. I have learned so much and had such a thirst for knowledge. But what I learned in the end is that the most precious knowledge is what I learned on my own. So I'm holding on to that. I find things on my terms and form my own theories. That's immensely satisfying. More than anyone explaining to me what I'm looking at

In fact that's the attraction to photography. Good images are felt, never understood, or analyzed. The viewer will understand your feelings. I seldom shoot images like that cause they require an intensity that's missing. Now I frame it up like a picture and pull the trigger.


I really do understand what you are saying about understanding things on your own terms and creating your own theories. And I think that is a very valid thing for many and so many things can be seen and felt differently by different people.

Art, literature, photography, etc. are all about emotion and feelings. But I might disagree with you in that I don't think it is necessary for someone to understand and share your feelings, or the feelings of who ever the artist may be--I see the important element is that there is a feeling or emotion there, no matter how different it might be. I just don't think there can ever be one or even a correct understanding and interpretation of any form of art. What I see as important is that there is an emotion created ---

BTW---the anthropology professor I referred to was a person who destroyed years of research because he had finally discovered a source of water on an island where some of the Seri People in Mexico had lived and he did not want to reveal the place. And for that, I very much respect him.




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[*] posted on 4-18-2012 at 08:04 PM


Diane,

I can understand how one can become jaded to see the same figures repeatedly. To me it was new and therefore exciting.

However the interplay between image and canvas is really fascinating. The round swirling rocks give you a sense of elevation and other wordly. The dark shadows and fissures in closeup give sense of danger and forboding.

Was this fortuitous? Likely yes. Yet it's there. And each site must have it's own interplay. So there is little to be bored with. But what do i know.
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[*] posted on 4-18-2012 at 08:18 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Diane,

I can understand how one can become jaded to see the same figures repeatedly. To me it was new and therefore exciting.

However the interplay between image and canvas is really fascinating. The round swirling rocks give you a sense of elevation and other wordly. The dark shadows and fissures in closeup give sense of danger and forboding.

Was this fortuitous? Likely yes. Yet it's there. And each site must have it's own interplay. So there is little to be bored with. But what do i know.


Igor,
Opps, did it sound jaded? I really didn't mean it that way, but what is written does not always translate to the thought behind it.

I see what you are talking about with the interplay between the natural formations and the man created images. And yes, each site does have its own interplay. And yes, that site does bring forth images of the other worldly. Your images are quite powerful as they really show that power.

My curiosity is the similarity in the design of the images in places. Why is there that similarity in places that probably did not have contact with other places. What is the meaning of that? That is one thing about which I wonder. I know that it may sound, well how do I say it, "way far out" but I wonder about the cosmic connections between many of the ancient people. I know that will sound crazy to many.




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[*] posted on 4-18-2012 at 09:13 PM


I just assumed that there was connectivity and 'successful' images were being repeated. Like our modern world. Someone shoots a picture of Che Guevara in a beret, it goes well, and is duplicated everywhere you look. It's a success.

Look at the iconography in a Russia Church. The same image of Christ appear in one cathedral after another. I feel that's veery similar. A picture of the afterlife is being repeated,
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[*] posted on 4-18-2012 at 10:43 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
This may sound conceited... I'm a very educated man. I have learned so much and had such a thirst for knowledge. But what I learned in the end is that the most precious knowledge is what I learned on my own. So I'm holding on to that. I find things on my terms and form my own theories. That's immensely satisfying. More than anyone explaining to me what I'm looking at......


can i use this in my signature? with all props to you, IGOR? that is the most profound statement i have EVER read on this forum.




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[*] posted on 4-18-2012 at 11:03 PM


Folks, this is rich, deep dialogue that's been evoked here. Gratitude for the thoughtfulness that this thread has prompted.

What an exciting find, to see the overhanging ledge, receive, hear and then act on the inner-prompt to face the rugged desert and search out the place. The reward of discovery of this beautiful archeological site, what a gift.




"Raise your words, not your voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder." ~Rumi

"It's the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~ Aristotle
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[*] posted on 4-18-2012 at 11:42 PM


Thanks for the comments.

As I looked at this mural I was greatly impressed. Yet I wrote nothing. Will they understand? Did I really see something significant? Will they see what I saw. I've put some effort in this thread for you to see and understand

I just receveived a u2u from shari of her very similar reaction to paintings at Agua Verde.

When You first see it it's mostly attractive. But as you look through your viewfinder it all changes. Heads appear out of shadows searching for the above. Change positions. Now in another corner you find groups of arms swirl above you in an ascent that all strain for. It's an image that had to be looked at bit by bit to understand. Otherwise it's just a painting in a beautiful spot.

Yet how did this perfection come to be? Surely the artist didn't search for a cave with the perfect contours for his creation. Nor did the artist create an image that perfectly matched it's interior. Hard to believe. It's likely that these caves are similar and a successful form is repeated with adjustments, Yet the deer were specific to the contours. Shows a great deal of creaivity.

Again this is just me reacting to a single painting. There may be many similar that would totally debunk these reactions. But there is little doubt that this was a place of worship. It was too perfect to be otherwise. A crucible in a harsh land.


[Edited on 4-19-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 06:12 AM


Thanks for the posting and sensitive comments. So many of these sites can only be protected by their isolation and this site remains so.
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 07:08 AM


Igor those photos, and that place, are simply magical! What great beauty. The quality of the art, and the canvas, exceed any cave art I've ever seen. Stunning! From my perspective I don't much care where it is, I can appreciate it from your photos. While I would like to see it first-hand, that is unlikely so your beautiful photography, both in and out of the cave, will do me just fine.

As to what the figures represent, i think you know my thoughts on religion so I can't pretend to find any "spiritual" meaning in them, although i am sure the artists did. All human societies, from primitive to modern days, have invented supernatural gods to explain things in their physical world that they can't explain otherwise. These figures, with outstretched arms extended skyward, probably reflect an attempt to connect with their supernatural inventions. The fact that I find no mystical meaning in the figures does not in any way diminish their beauty and I thank you profusely for posting them.

[Edited on 4-19-2012 by Ken Bondy]




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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 10:45 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Paula,

Where are you. You asked for this 6 months ago and I finally did it. Please give me your impressions. You are seasoned in this matter.

P.S Don't hurt my feelings by comparing it to Stanley Gardner's tourist attractions.

[Edited on 4-19-2012 by Skipjack Joe]



Ah yes.... I remember you mentioning this cave. I think I can remember watching for the pictures, and it is nice to see them now. I'm wishing I could remember your words that piqued my interest here...
I have seen only caves that I've been led to, and can only imagine finding one on my own, especially one as lovely as this. To begin with, the quality of the rock is different, so soft, and the contours beneath the paintings add much to the finished work. It is unclear where the paint color and texture, the camera, and the eye of the photographer intersect. This is so different than the few caves I've seen, I find myself wishing that I could visit it. The stone box in the image looking out from the cave make me think it is on or close to a ranch, but it could be so many places... and I can see many reasons for keeping the mystery.
The fact that you seem to have just found this on your own is inspiring, and I think I should just go out and look around more often than I do. You give me too much credit for being seasoned, but I thank you for the compliment.
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 11:24 AM


Thanks to all who submitted to this worthy thread. Inspiring and great photography of a difficult but magical subject. I have seen a few caves and realize how difficult good picture taking is in there. Just hope one day to walk into a simmilar experience.



The grass is always greener....
and so, there is always a better spot in Baja
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 03:39 PM


Wonderful images, wonderful thread, thank you all.

I think I'm correct in saying that the folks who made those paintings were no less intelligent than are we. They were, by our standards, incredibly ignorant. I can only imagine the uncertainty of life in that environment and the many ways the inventive human mind may have found to explain-away the fear, or to hedge against the probability that misfortune would come again.

I'd like to know more about why *the way* our brains process and compare data seems to *invite* superstition. It seems that as we constantly look for patterns, that when an abnormal pattern is observed producing a good outcome, we try to reproduce the abnormal conditions even after a long return to normalcy demonstrates the abnormality.

Because Homseco who lives two days walk away painted a deer on his shelter roof and chants to it before he goes hunting, and because he is almost ALWAYS successful, the rapid growth in popularity of totem deer among less capable hunters regionally might be understandable.:lol:




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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 03:56 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by vgabndo
I'd like to know more about why *the way* our brains process and compare data seems to *invite* superstition. It seems that as we constantly look for patterns, that when an abnormal pattern is observed producing a good outcome, we try to reproduce the abnormal conditions even after a long return to normalcy demonstrates


vgabndo. I just finished an excellent book which addresses that:

J. Anderson Thomson, Jr., MD, "Why We Believe in God(s)"

Great read!

[Edited on 4-19-2012 by Ken Bondy]




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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 05:05 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Quote:
Originally posted by vgabndo
I'd like to know more about why *the way* our brains process and compare data seems to *invite* superstition. It seems that as we constantly look for patterns, that when an abnormal pattern is observed producing a good outcome, we try to reproduce the abnormal conditions even after a long return to normalcy demonstrates


vgabndo. I just finished an excellent book which addresses that:

J. Anderson Thomson, Jr., MD, "Why We Believe in God(s)"

Great read!

[Edited on 4-19-2012 by Ken Bondy]


Ken,

I've thought about you in the past. Why try to understand the attraction and not just simply let yourself resspond. I'm playing the devil's advocate because I too am incapable of trusting my feelings over reason.

It's great that you have found the marvels of our natural world as a substitute. But most are not so lucky. Even now I can't believe the substitution is to your satisfaction.

For all evil that organized church has done let's not forget the good. You see it in people's eyes during christmas. Have you stopped giving gifts. Unlikely. Where would we be without stories like a Christmas Carol that clearly tells us judeo/christian good from bad.

There is a peace in a russian church that nothing can compare other than a desert or redwood grove. But what about those that don't venture out. Where will they get it. There are other ways to obtain this: meditation or for me the zen of unbiased observation. Again this is so esoteric as to be useless.

So I see little use in someones idea of why we need god. A better question is what do you offer that's just as good. What is there to fill the void. It sounds like you've found it but in all honesty I have not. But I'm too smart to believe in lies of the church. This may sound morbid (I'm a sick man) but the end will be unpleasant in whatever form it comes. For you and for me.
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 05:05 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
why does one hand have five fingers and a thumb?


Possibly to show them as slightly non-human, as not to give them too much power? Kind of like the "errors" / "mistakes" that are put into some Mandala sand paintings that are sold or have no sacred value.

Also interesting that several have "appendages" sticking out below their arms. Do these possibly symbolize breasts? And thus both men and women are represented in the images?

Very cool images. Thanks for sharing them Skipjack Joe; and also thanks for not sharing the location.

I'll bet they really come alive in the flickering of a fire on a dark moonless night. :o




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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 05:29 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja


I'll bet they really come alive in the flickering of a fire on a dark moonless night. :o


What a marvelous thought? Yet I found no soot as in my previous finds that had been used as middens. There was one far corner without paintings that suggested a fire had been lit.
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 05:32 PM


I thought about these things you discuss a lot back in College. Not much since. Many of us simply don't experience "the void" that you speak of-------I have no idea what that is. (Ignorance is bliss!?!?!?)

Your photos are beautiful, and in themselves create mysteries to ponder, and that is all good. In this case, I support the secrecy of this "place" and applaud you decision to keep it that way. But I love knowing that they exist!!

I too have places like that-----------

Bravo, SkipJack.

Barry
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