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Ken Bondy
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 05:35 PM


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Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
It's great that you have found the marvels of our natural world as a substitute. But most are not so lucky. Even now I can't believe the substitution is to your satisfaction.


I am very satisfied with my substitution of the natural world for religion Igor. I have felt that way since I was a teenager, and there are no changes on the horizon! I find the natural world enormously more beautiful and fulfilling than religious superstition. I also think it is magnificent that we have evolved brains that allow us to understand ever more of it. I find the concept of a god who offers not a shred of evidence for his/her existence, but who will barbecue me for eternity if I don't BELIEVE in him/her, profoundly repulsive, and simply too evil to be true.

I have never found any direct relationship between religion and morality. It has been my experience that people do good, moral things in spite of religion, not because of it. A wise old quotation goes, "Good people do good things with and without religion; bad people do bad things with and without religion, but for good people to do bad things, now that takes religion!"

I hope you find what you are looking for old cyberfriend!!

++Ken++




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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 05:50 PM


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Originally posted by Barry A.
I thought about these things you discuss a lot back in College. Not much since.


But these people thought about it. Or am I totally off base? They didn't put it aside and ignore it.

Who really knows what these images are about. I could be totally wrong. Please offer any other interpretation for consideration. I would welcome that. Perhaps it's time to open the books and see what the experts say. Although I've opened too many books in my lifetime and have little interest here as well.
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 06:22 PM


You are "not off base at all", SkipJack, and I am sorry if I created that idea. Again, I applaud your thoughts, and this thread. I was just pointing out that we all are not "into" the "void" thing, and seeking "the word", but certainly the primitives could have been, and probably were------life was really tough and mysterious in those days.

Barry
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 06:23 PM


Wonderful find Igor. I would love to have had the opportunity to shoot the sight as well. Thanks for sharing.
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Skipjack Joe
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 06:44 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Bondy

I am very satisfied with my substitution of the natural world for religion Igor. I have felt that way since I was a teenager, and there are no changes on the horizon! I find the natural world enormously more beautiful and fulfilling than religious superstition. I also think it is magnificent that we have evolved brains that allow us to understand ever more of it. I find the concept of a god who offers not a shred of evidence for his/her existence, but who will barbecue me for eternity if I don't BELIEVE in him/her, profoundly repulsive, and simply too evil to be true.

I have never found any direct relationship between religion and morality. It has been my experience that people do good, moral things in spite of religion, not because of it. A wise old quotation goes, "Good people do good things with and without religion; bad people do bad things with and without religion, but for good people to do bad things, now that takes religion!"

I hope you find what you are looking for old cyberfriend!!

++Ken++


OK. I'm going to drop this for now. It will rise again. Mostly because I agree with much and arguing with you is like going against myself. Yet there is a difference which I think has to do with our own constitution.

I have to say that the comments about frying is below you. What St Augustine came up has little to do with spirituality. It's a clumsy attempt to instill fear to do good. Also the comments about morality were sophomoric. Few believe the connection between the church and morality beyond an early age.

No, the question is about spirituality in it's simplest form. I claim there is a natural human yearning for it. We're not like a mayfly that lives a day and it's over.

The people that came to this site were not aberrations. They were like you and me. And an explanation as to why they felt this need would have changed nothing. Understanding can't supplant a need.

[Edited on 4-20-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 07:05 PM


I don't know, Igor, maybe we are like Mayflys, and it is exactly that concept that causes us to search for something more.

Another example. We can not comprehend an endless universe, so we search for an end to it.

Hard for us I know, but what if???
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Ken Bondy
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 07:21 PM


Igor

OK one last round and I'll quit :). First, I said "barbecue". No mention was made of "frying"'. Seriously do you find anything incorrect with my statement about penalty for disbelief?

More significantly, I strongly but respectfully disagree with your statement "Few believe the connection between the church and morality beyond an early age." I think the reverse is true, most people (albeit incorrectly) believe there is a connection between church and morality. You can't go a day without someone describing, in the media, someone as "christian", with the obvious assumption that "christian" is a good, moral thing. So I think there is a pervasive but wildly incorrect assumption amongst most people that religion implies morality.

If you insist, I quit :)

I do agree that our species craves some form of spirituality. I think the best place to find it is in the beauty and intricacy of the physical world.




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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 07:24 PM


I think what you found out there in the desert Igor, would have to be experienced in person in order to get a feeling for what the Artists motivation could of been. You were standing right where they were, probably during the same type of day and it moved you, like it moved them.

Thanks for sharing the photos.
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 07:30 PM


It is impossible to get a true feeling of the art without seeing it in person--it loses the context, perspective, etc.

What strikes me most about the image are the two central characters--the large figure in the foreground who looks to be wearing some type of hat and the rising figure in the background whose head seems to be dissipating in a flame-like shape with odd protrusions at each side of the chest cavity. These two figures seem to be interacting in some way.

The deer at the bottom of the scene seems to create a separation between the human and animal world.

My impression is of a ceremony of sorts. The figure in the hat could be the ceremonial leader and the rising figure seems to be the object of the ceremony.

The rising arms certainly give the impression of the spiritual hallelujah, reaching to celestial spirits.

I am inclined to think this may be a sacrificial altar of sorts....

thanks for sharing.


The figures seem very human
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Skipjack Joe
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 07:34 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
I don't know, Igor, maybe we are like Mayflys, and it is exactly that concept that causes us to search for something more.

Another example. We can not comprehend an endless universe, so we search for an end to it.

Hard for us I know, but what if???


It's hard to feel what another feels. In the hospital I watched a show of the crusader's defense of 'Jerusalem'. After Saladins men broke in the carnage began. Each strike of the sword was displayed by actors and the fossil bones were analyzed. Spears entered torsos. Arrows pierced chests.

Yet as disgusting as it all was I was never able to 'pretend' how it must have felt. They were just entities. Similarly I can't relate to the animal world. Ken and Dennis apparently can.

This post is really off the mark but I will let it stand for now.
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Skipjack Joe
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 07:47 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Igor

OK one last round and I'll quit :). First, I said "barbecue". No mention was made of "frying"'. Seriously do you find anything incorrect with my statement about penalty for disbelief?

More significantly, I strongly but respectfully disagree with your statement "Few believe the connection between the church and morality beyond an early age." I think the reverse is true, most people (albeit incorrectly) believe there is a connection between church and morality. You can't go a day without someone describing, in the media, someone as "christian", with the obvious assumption that "christian" is a good, moral thing. So I think there is a pervasive but wildly incorrect assumption amongst most people that religion implies morality.

If you insist, I quit :)

I do agree that our species craves some form of spirituality. I think the best place to find it is in the beauty and intricacy of the physical world.


I'm erasing this post because in hindsight it makes me feel uncomfortable.

You've probably read it Ken. I'm sorry.


[Edited on 4-20-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 08:07 PM


Thanks, interesting



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vgabndo
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 08:07 PM


Just a couple of quick things from previous posts...

Ken thanks for the link to Dr. Thompson. I just watched him do a power point of the book here:

http://richarddawkins.net/videos/641385-j-anderson-thomson-j...

Thomson shares new science I didn't know was here about the Neuropsychology of supernatural beliefs. It had to happen sooner or later.

This work and the emerging studies on the very real differences in the brains of progressives and conservatives promise to make the next couple of decades a real mess.

This one thing really struck me from the video. Thompson asked the audience, " What does a two year old do when it wants your attention?" He demonstrates by putting his arms above his head to be picked-up. "What does a Pentecostalist do in church?" His arms go up. What does an aborigine paint on the ceiling of his desert shelter?

And, Skipjack, with full respect, I judge you'd get an answer to your question about morality without spirituality in this video. The thinking is up to your standards, I think. Which is a concept explored in the video!!:lol:

And SJJ..it is easy for me to forget that you are recovering. I hope you are progressing well!

[Edited on 4-20-2012 by vgabndo]




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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 09:11 PM


The museum beside the mission in San Ignacio has a replica of a similar cave painting with explanations of some aspects of the glyph content and the life of the people who made them. The folks with the "hats" are indeed thought to be shaman figures, while those with the bumps below their underarms are female figures. Some of the figures are also painted half red and the other half black. It is possible to experience more than a bit of wonder about the people who lived then.

There is sure some interesting reading about indigenous people to be found (apologies if this is a repeat):
http://www.innerexplorations.com/catsimple/guaybook.htm
"The Religion of the Guaycuras

We are lucky to have the detailed picture of the Guaycuras that Baegert left us, but unfortunately his knowledge did not extend to their inner world, and so it is worthwhile to try to breathe some life into the little data we have by looking at their religious beliefs and their major artifacts.

Our primary sources are the works of Baegert and Hostell who, unfortunately, left us very little about the actual beliefs of the Guaycura. We may recall Baegert’s remarks about how humans arose from the mating of Emma, the devil, and a bird which had been a woman, and how stones and animals had once been human. Fortunately we have a report of Venegas on the beliefs of the Monquí, and we have some grounds to believe that their more southerly cousins shared the same sort of religious world view.8

Gumongo, the chief spirit, lived in the north from whence he sent sicknesses, but he also sent Guyiagui who seeded the earth with pitahayas, and opened up esteros, that is, bodies of water behind the beaches, along the Gulf coast as far south as a big rock in Puerto Escondido where he dwelled for a time. Other spirits brought him pitahayas and fish, and he continued this work of bringing pitahayas and forming esteros.

Guyiagui also made garments for the shamans who were called dicuinoches from the hair they offered to him, and he left them a painted tablet to use during their fiestas and ceremonies. These shamans say that the sun and moon and the bright stars are men and women who fall into the sea in the west and must swim to the east to emerge again. The other stars were lit by Guyiagui and they are extinguished in the water of the sea, but they reignite the next day in the east. If we add to the hair capes and tablas, or tablets, of this passage wands, pipes and dart throwers, we are faced with a list of fascinating objects to examine."
H.W. Crosby



[Edited on 4-20-2012 by windgrrl]




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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 09:22 PM


Just a note here Igor...my U2U referred to my first experience with cave paintings which are near Sta.Marta by Bonfil. I am still so overwhelmed with what I experienced, I find it difficult to articulate my feelings.

My favorite figure was a person flying out of a hole in the wall...it was a rather small figure compared to the huge ones and some people may miss it...it is along a path between caves...but this may answer my questions about how those enormous paintings were painted...I just dont buy the scaffolding idea...so this little guy obviously was levitating...so maybe that's how they did it!!! There certainly are many many images that relate to galactic beings...osea....non earthlings.

I was not prepared for being nearly knocked over physically and spiritually by these figures...it was definately one of the most significant experiences I had ever had and is deeply etched in my soul.

I certainly like the idea of the lookout theory as many caves have that feeling.




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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 09:29 PM
Ancient Shmanism in Baja:trances, visons and spirit helpers


...additional discussion of potential meaning of some of the cave paintings in context of spiritual practices by their creators:
http://www.innerexplorations.com/catsimple/exped10.htm




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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 09:46 PM


Igor, a while back you mentioned the peace you feel in Russian churches. I sense tranquility in Mexican Catholic churches. But any sense of religion is absent in me. I do not believe in (a) God. I do have a certain unarticulated spirituality. It is not an element of my day to day existence. When I signed on for facebook a few years back there was a place to state religious views, and I said "mountains, sea, sky". So why the thing for these churches? Cathedral or small remote village church, I have entered them with my head bowed, not out of humility, but with a sense of not belonging, of being an affront to the faithful within those walls, for not deserving to be there. I didn't make eye contact, and tiptoed so as not to disturb those who were praying. But recently while traveling in Oaxaca I paid more attention to the people. Some seem to be sad, crying, and asking for somethig-- help, advice, solace. Often two or three are sitting together, conversing and laughing softly among themselves. And sometimes eyes will meet mine, and people say buenas tardes, como estas? with a smile. And I've come to see that the church is just a place to be part of humanity. Yes, many practice the rituals of genuflecting and prayer, and Christ is their conduit to the great collectivity. What they seek-- and find-- is really not so mysterious at all, just the human spirit at its best.

And now to the paintings... I mentioned religion in one of the "famous" caves, and the guides said no, those people had no religion, and everyone wants to find religion in the paintings, but it is not there. The same guide said that really no one has any idea what the intentions of the artists were. Granted, this was one guide, and who knows how his knowledge or opinion came to be. But one must realize what a primitive society it was that existed in Baja before the Catholics and the soldiers came. Monte Alban and other famous sites on the mainland date from centuries before Christ. And clearly, from what remains and from what has been taken away and now is in museums, there is evidence of a society with complex practices in fields of agriculture, art, probably cuisine, astronomy, warfare, and more. And at the same time in history, over here in Baja folks were living in caves, and subsisting on small rodents, fish, and cactus fruit. The paintings are beautiful, but can we-- coming from our rich store of knowledge and curiosity--, take ourselves to that basic place from where we can begin to understand their intent? Were the artists motivated to think abstractly? You say that they were people just like us, but are we people just like they were? There are a few people still on the ranches who say they can remember seeing the last of the descendants of the cave people-- seen running through the desert, living in the old way. When my children were small they always drew figures, often family portraits, with arms outstretched-- free, joyful, and welcoming of all the good that might come their way....
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 10:10 PM


Paula, Yes! What you say so rings true with me.
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 10:18 PM


redmesa

I have been humbled by Windgrll's links-- posted as I wrote my feelings on spirituality and the preconquisto history of Baja Sur. it appears that much can be learned by research and study. Could my assumptions have been too hasty? Should I have looked more deeply into the issues at hand before speaking my mind?

Thank you for the vote of confidence, as I am feeling a bit rattled at this moment!
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[*] posted on 4-19-2012 at 10:20 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by vgabndo
Just a couple of quick things from previous posts...

Ken thanks for the link to Dr. Thompson. I just watched him do a power point of the book here:

http://richarddawkins.net/videos/641385-j-anderson-thomson-j...

Thomson shares new science I didn't know was here about the Neuropsychology of supernatural beliefs. It had to happen sooner or later.

This work and the emerging studies on the very real differences in the brains of progressives and conservatives promise to make the next couple of decades a real mess.

This one thing really struck me from the video. Thompson asked the audience, " What does a two year old do when it wants your attention?" He demonstrates by putting his arms above his head to be picked-up. "What does a Pentecostalist do in church?" His arms go up. What does an aborigine paint on the ceiling of his desert shelter?

And, Skipjack, with full respect, I judge you'd get an answer to your question about morality without spirituality in this video. The thinking is up to your standards, I think. Which is a concept explored in the video!!:lol:

And SJJ..it is easy for me to forget that you are recovering. I hope you are progressing well!

[Edited on 4-20-2012 by vgabndo]


I'm sorry, I came away with little from this. His point is that Religion came about from social interaction. Yes, this supplants morality. But when someone writes about the need to invent God I'm not interested in the nuts and bolts of social structure. When I read God I read a spirit. A need to fulfill some inner need that is felt but not understood.

Maybe I missed it. A lot of verbiage on evolution of no relevance. Brain analysis that I did not understand and always mistrusted. Brain chemistry is in it's infancy. How would you feel if you were offered serotonin, what appears to be the diferrence between Ken and my brain, and told. Take this and your spiritual longings will be gone? I would be horrified. An entire dimension would be gone.
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