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Paula
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Skijack
I hope you find my last post here worthy of a reply, as I have certainly gone out on a limb-- speaking purely on observation of sights and pictures,
and the spoken words of people who live close to the subject and not inquiring into the scholarly wisdom that is available.
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
redmesa
I have been humbled by Windgrll's links-- posted as I wrote my feelings on spirituality and the preconquisto history of Baja Sur. it appears that
much can be learned by research and study. Could my assumptions have been too hasty? Should I have looked more deeply into the issues at hand before
speaking my mind?
Thank you for the vote of confidence, as I am feeling a bit rattled at this moment! |
Paula,
Windgirls link clearly identifies the man in the hat as a shaman. Are not shaman's a conduit to the underworld? Perhaps this is not a place of
worship. Yet something spiritual is going on. Unless I understand correctly the role of a shaman. He's like a priest and where there is a priest there
is a church? What am I missing here?
Regarding your experience in church it's remarkably similar to mine. At first there is a state of nervouness as I feel like such a hypocrite. Then a
state of awareness as I watch the worshippers. But eventually I reach a state of bliss as I here the chanting and the choir above and a sense of peace
comes over me until I can't bear the smell of incense any longer. I think people worship for different reasons. I can't see into their souls.
Regarding religion among the cave dwellers. I never thought there was. All I said was that some sort of spiritual longing seems to be occuring. This
seems to be a safe assumption. This is universal and will remain so for centuries to come. Early African man had it and all else since. It's like
denying the tribalism between the serbs and the croats. Once you do me wrong and my people will pay you back. Nothings changed. All has been
sublimated. We compete in the olypics. the world cup, the stock market. We lie to gain allies. We can't agree on Iran. We can't agree on Syria. North
Korea has us by the nose. If we can't control a world that requires cooperation how are we to lose a similar ancient longing for spirituality. Do you
know that religion in Russia was stronger in the soviet world than the rest of europe. People were willing to endure punishment and still worship.
Every babushka had her crucifix and taught her grandchildren in the ways of Christianity. How do you explain such a thing. Fools they were not. It's
the universal pull.
[Edited on 4-20-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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Paula
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Igor, I think I'm in over my head here. The link identifies the man in a hat as a shaman, and this seems a logical conclusion. Based on what we
know, or think we know today. I just think that the paintings are a beautiful amazing mystery, but they answer no questions. The meaning of the
paintings is buried, and we have little chance of ever knowing the why of them. So they are an open book, and a person can find what they need to
find in them. And maybe this is where faith comes int play. You see what you see, that is what is there for you, and if you have faith you do not
need affirmation. Ultimately, we all must find the way that works for us. It may be different than anyone else's truth, but it is ours alone.
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Skipjack Joe
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I have added a bit more Paula. Please reread.
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Ken Bondy
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Igor have you read any Dawkins? He presents a lot of thoughtful answers to questions about religion.
Dawkins thinks that religion is hardwired into us. Participation in organized religion starts, in all societies through all times, with a parent
telling a child that he/she is a christian, muslim, jew, etc. largely as a function of where the child was born. Religion is, Dawkins hypothesizes,
an unintended by-product of evolution. Natural selection favored children who did what their parents told them to do (“…stay away from that
cliff…don’t put your hand in that fire…don’t jump in that water…etc.”) The kids who paid attention to their parents tended to survive and procreate
more often than those who didn’t. But along with the wise admonitions, early kids almost always got some bad advice (“…we must worship (zeus, apollo,
sun woman, moon man, god, allah, etc.) so the crops will be good and the sun will continue to rise…”). The children favored by natural selection thus
got the religious garbage along with the stuff that was actually valuable.
This may explain the persistence of religion in human society (the Russian experience you describe) and the undeniable craving many have for some form
of spirituality.
[Edited on 4-20-2012 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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Skipjack Joe
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Ken,
Upon your recommendation I did read Dawkins. I asked the bookstore attedant what he thought. "Yes. It's the atheist manifesto" Howeveer, I never did
not read what you write which makes a fair amount of sense. I guess I was so turned off by the proofs of the unlikeliness of God's existence which
seemed so elementary that I stopped reading. It somehow seemed insulting. My mistake.
Religion plays no role in my house. Yet strangely Alex is strangely drawn to it. I know you disagree but I see no harm in this. The future will bring
so much overwhelming evidence that he's wrong. That likely he will change. Yet as I wrote to you a year ago that to believe in both is a gift. A gift
I lack. So I feel comfortable in the current path. What's wrong with holding on to santa claus. How did Einstein maintain his spirituality as he
uncovered the falsity of the bible. That amazed me. My guess is that his spirituality was a personal creation that he constantly changed to meet his
needs. I suspect his religion had nothing in common with Dawkins proofs.
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Igor have you read any Dawkins? He presents a lot of thoughtful answers to questions about religion.
Dawkins thinks that religion is hardwired into us. Participation in organized religion starts, in all societies through all times, with a parent
telling a child that he/she is a christian, muslim, jew, etc. largely as a function of where the child was born. Religion is, Dawkins hypothesizes,
an unintended by-product of evolution. Natural selection favored children who did what their parents told them to do (“…stay away from that
cliff…don’t put your hand in that fire…don’t jump in that water…etc.”) The kids who paid attention to their parents tended to survive and procreate
more often than those who didn’t. But along with the wise admonitions, early kids almost always got some bad advice (“…we must worship (zeus, apollo,
sun woman, moon man, god, allah, etc.) so the crops will be good and the sun will continue to rise…”). The children favored by natural selection thus
got the religious garbage along with the stuff that was actually valuable.
This may explain the persistence of religion in human society (the Russian experience you describe) and the undeniable craving many have for some form
of spirituality.
[Edited on 4-20-2012 by Ken Bondy] |
Ken,
I still feel we are talking on different levels. Dawkins addrresses the usefulness of religion in social interaction. I have little interest in that.
I am interested in those who are drawn to the spiritual world with questions like who am I really. What am I. Where am I going. What is this all
about. To feel and understand that which is not understable. A modern biochemical explanation of firing neurons does absolutely nothing to quench the
thirst.
Perhaps the cave dwellers came to the shaman to physically mend them. But knowing man I suspect that they also came with the above. At least in
feeling.
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Ken Bondy
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Igor
That Dawkins "hardwired by evolution" discourse came from "The God Delusion", Chapter 5, but he mentions it in other books also.
Einstein's spirituality was focused on the physical world. Here's one of my favorite Einstein quotations:
"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious
then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." (Albert Einstein, 1954)
carpe diem!
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Ken Bondy
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<<A modern biochemical explanation of firing neurons does absolutely nothing to quench the thirst.>>
Igor do you acknowledge the possibility that 'firing neurons" might be all there is?
Have you ever investigated Buddhism?
carpe diem!
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
<<A modern biochemical explanation of firing neurons does absolutely nothing to quench the thirst.>>
Igor do you acknowledge the possibility that 'firing neurons" might be all there is?
Have you ever investigated Buddhism? |
I can accept anything. Yet it is so detached from human consciousness that I find it very difficult. It's interesting how you worded the question.
"might be all there is". It reveals that you too would be happier with more? The idea that Alex would not be at my side if not for an occurence with a
probability of 10,000 to 1 is astounding. Even though I know it to be true. Where would he be otherwise. Would none of us come to be if not for
accidents? That seems incredible. It's hard to accept.
No exposure to Buddhism other than meditation. No, I am stamped for life with the faith of my forefathers. Too much is tied into it. I am incapable of
this now, nor probably before,
[Edited on 4-20-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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vgabndo
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Igor, If I may be so familiar, when I stumbled on the Voltaire quote that is the last one on my signature, there was a bit of an Aha Moment. From
having recently sat through a complete description by Neil DeGrasse Tyson about how mindblowingly tiny any human is in the sphere of things, I'm ready
to think that my mind has so far exceeded the reasoning power it needed to feed, house and shelter itself that it reverts to a form of mental
masturbation. For many, especially the progressive mind, it seems there is pleasure in playing with new concepts and ideas. "We" also seem to take
great pleasure in convincing ourselves that something we believed is true actually is so.
I hope I live long enough to see the new brain chemistry science progress to solid theory. I doubt I'll ever understand most of it, but I sure want
the chance to try.
I thought that the preliminary studies showing the same parts of the brain "reacting" to both the god concept and the self concept to be potentially
revealing. If I got that right? I want more!
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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Paula
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Igor, as you are stamped by the faith of your forefathers, I may be stamped by the lack of spirituality in mine. Religion was non-existent in my
entire family, and was only ever mentioned in a political sense. Coming from where I do, I think any answers that the figures in the paintings were
seeking were for more mundane issues. I am perfectly comfortable with the possibility that I am wrong on this, and I don't find it distressing that
people find different things in what is before them. The figures are beautiful and mysterious, and that is enough for me.
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Skipjack Joe
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Yes it is. That's why I came to you. As a lover of art.
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danaeb
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
The figures are beautiful and mysterious, and that is enough for me. |
I couldn't agree more. Last month I saw paintings up in the mountains outside Loreto. Not so many human-like figures but lots of dolphins, whales and
tortugas. And many curious graphic symbols; red and black dabs, a red grid figure and another figure that looked like an upside down centipede. Who
know what it all means?
Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
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windgrrl
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Very nice to see such a thoughtful dialogue here. Wouldn't it be fine to be having this discussion in one of the caves?
The shaman are thought to be trying to access the spirit world through beliefs and rituals. I can imagine this function & process is for the good
of the survival of the tribe as sprituality is well known to be a positive factor in health, especially mental health and well-being. It just can be
such a thorny topic!
It might be helpful to understand that shamanic spiritual practices are pan-theistic and nature-centric in contrast to the modern mono-theistic and
man-centric model we have today. The pantheistic view commonly found across ancient societies has been largely overridden by modern religion, but was
far more closely connected to a relationship with nature and the cycle of life.
It is wonderful that shamans left a record for us to ponder and interpret.
In the end...accessing our own sense of spirituality is not resticted to a single source. We get the message from many sources and in the end our
freedom to explore spirituality and our spritual perception is our own.
It's always enlightening to explore the world through someone else's lenses.
When the way comes to an end, then change. Having changed, you pass through.
~ I-Ching
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by windgrrl
Very nice to see such a thoughtful dialogue here. Wouldn't it be fine to be having this discussion in one of the caves?
The shaman are thought to be trying to access the spirit world through beliefs and rituals. I can imagine this function & process is for the good
of the survival of the tribe as sprituality is well known to be a positive factor in health, especially mental health and well-being. It just can be
such a thorny topic!
It might be helpful to understand that shamanic spiritual practices are pan-theistic and nature-centric in contrast to the modern mono-theistic and
man-centric model we have today. The pantheistic view commonly found across ancient societies has been largely overridden by modern religion, but was
far more closely connected to a relationship with nature and the cycle of life.
It is wonderful that shamans left a record for us to ponder and interpret.
In the end...accessing our own sense of spirituality is not resticted to a single source. We get the message from many sources and in the end our
freedom to explore spirituality and our spritual perception is our own.
It's always enlightening to explore the world through someone else's lenses. |
So very well stated! While my personal spiritual beliefs run along the lines of pantheism, my beliefs are always evolving and yes, it is always
interesting to hear about the beliefs of others and their path to those beliefs. It is why I enjoy the UU Church so much.
Out of all the books I have read in my personal search, three of my favorites are very small books that are deceptively simple at first glance, and
ones I think a few of you might enjoy.
They were written by a former UU Minister from Santa Fe, Webster Kitchell. He is so longer of this world and I am so pleased that I had the
opportunity to hear him speak.
God's Dog: Conversations With Coyote
If you enjoy that one, you will probably enjoy the two books that followed.
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Natalie Ann
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What a magical moment, Igor... when first you noticed that overhang, were drawn to it! I can only imagine the excitement and joy you must have felt
upon discovering the paintings.... and then that strong feeling of awakening and connection to Spirit and to peace. What a gift for you.
Your pix clearly relate your experience. There's a sense of wonder enhanced by the framing, the curves and textures of the rock adding to the
somewhat sensual feel of the images.
You also stimulated good discussion - always refreshing. I'll have something to say there when I've felt more parts of the elephant.
nena
Be yourself, everyone else is already taken.
.....Oscar Wilde
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Taco de Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by windgrrl
Very nice to see such a thoughtful dialogue here. Wouldn't it be fine to be having this discussion in one of the caves?
It is wonderful that shamans left a record for us to ponder and interpret.
In the end...accessing our own sense of spirituality is not resticted to a single source. We get the message from many sources and in the end our
freedom to explore spirituality and our spritual perception is our own.
It's always enlightening to explore the world through someone else's lenses. |
The other thought to ponder is: Are there really images of shamans, or images left by shamans? Nice thought, but is it true?
As an old (1600s) saying goes:
"Fools' names, like fools' faces,
Are often seen in public places."
In modern times this saying fits politicians, actors and sports 'heroes'; and we all know how foolish many [most] of them are. True spiritual people
(think of a bodhisattva, or a guru on the remote mountain-top or a monk in a remote monastery), often shun the lime-light, and prefer to be sought out
rather than the "look-at-me-look-at-me celebrities" that crave/need attention.
Maybe these images are little more than a "Vote for Bob" yard sign, or "Come see the latest concert by Venado and the Seis Dedos, next Tuesday".
Probably not, but who knows. It sure does not take away from their value, or their ability to create a dialog, that's for sure.
Truth generally lies in the coordination of antagonistic opinions
-Herbert Spencer
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mtgoat666
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images were by people just hanging out and making art, when they had spare time not consumed by sex, hunting/gathering, music and war.
don't know why you want to find special mysticism in the images, all art is same, just the media and styles change over time.
the one thing about baja cave art is the artists' culture had not yet developed much proportionism or realism in their 2-d drawing/painting skills.
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Skipjack Joe
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After speaking to Natalie I want to add a bit more ...
The images I chose to show you were a few of many. It was midmorning and the overhang was in shadow. I set the camera to 'overcast' which naturally
saturates all colors. I shot the red figures against the yellow wall and was pleased. I felt it represented the image as I saw it. I then searched for
compositions and I wrote about that already. Below were people half black and half red. I worked on that but couldn't get the blacks to satisfy me and
left. At the left end of the cave there were more shamans. But the harsh lighting was inconsistent with my work. So ignored.
So this is my visual interpretation of what I saw. I have seen numerous pictures of paintings that do not do them justice. Casual shots by
photographers that record but don't bring the magic.
So I give you the magic that's there. Just disclosed in my way. It's one of the pleasures of photography. The magic of color and imagination.
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