| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
..
8 |
Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
The actions of Sea Shepard should be directed to changing the laws in a legal manner rather than infringing illegally upon the rights of others.
|
japan and norway and a few other countries continue to say FU to the world, and those countries need to be stopped by all means. if people had
followed legal avenues, there would be many fewer whale species today. anyone who defends rights of whalers is a cruel fool.
there is no sane person in USA that thinks japan has a valid "right" to continue whaling. cisco, your defense of japanese slaughter is repugnant!
|
Tom you need to reread what I have written about the animal/man interaction and get your head around what may be legal and what should be moral.
Then, after talking about the slaughter of defenseless species we can get into a lively conversation about why we (U.S.A.) are abusing the moral/legal
interface of international law regarding sovereign countries.
Get it???
|
|
|
SFandH
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7390
Registered: 8-5-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
You mean this guy is just helping to enforce the law? Kinda like Arizona helping out the feds? |
Stay on topic. This topic is something I have very deep, innate feelings about. I hope the discussion continues.
What kind of research requires 100s of freshly murdered whales every year? I'm sure someone who is standing up for the rights of the killers knows.
Right?
[Edited on 7-6-2012 by SFandH]
|
|
|
Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by SFandH
| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
You mean this guy is just helping to enforce the law? Kinda like Arizona helping out the feds? |
Stay on topic. This topic is something I have very deep, innate feelings about. I hope the discussion continues.
What kind of research requires 100s of freshly murdered whales every year? I'm sure someone who is standing up for the rights of the killers knows.
Right?
[Edited on 7-6-2012 by SFandH] |
I too have deep feelings regarding the killing of species and the rape of other natural resources on our planet.
I deplore the killing of the animals as I have stated before, but, man and his "rules" allow that killing as they allow the sustainable harvest of the
baby harp seals that only the rich wear as ornament.
I deplore the illegal shark-fin industry and other abuses of harvest that are being perpetrated due to the economic system of the U.S.
You live in San Diego although I don't know your age. I harvested lobster from the huge navy buoy chains in San Diego Bay. I harvested abalone from
Sunset Cliffs. Until there were no more and then I took my commercial operation elsewhere.
I see legal sustainable fisheries that are well maintained and protected in Baja. Fisheries that have sustained the people for generations and with
the maintenance I see of the respective fisheries will sustain their people for many more generations.
I could write pages about this problem and connect it to the looting and pillage of the World as one great eco-society, which it is, and the abuses
made by those 5% with the power who will TAKE 25% of the resources for their own selfish needs.
What is the difference with the whales? The Japanese are doing it legally, whether you agree with that or not. Change the law if it doesn't feel good.
But, to your statement: "What kind of research requires 100s of freshly murdered whales every year? I'm sure someone who is standing up for the rights
of the killers knows. Right?"
I have no idea what, if any, kind of research requires that amount of product and I believe it is a scam to get a resource, like the Dolphin kills
also, the Sea Hare's, the Abulon produced in Baja for asian consumption, BUT IT'S LEGAL!!!
When you begin taking an "Ox-Bow" type mentality and lynch-mob vigilante methods to contain what you personally do not agree with then all of mankind
is in anarchy.
|
|
|
rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6700
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by SFandH
| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
You mean this guy is just helping to enforce the law? Kinda like Arizona helping out the feds? |
Stay on topic. This topic is something I have very deep, innate feelings about. I hope the discussion continues.
What kind of research requires 100s of freshly murdered whales every year? I'm sure someone who is standing up for the rights of the killers knows.
Right?
[Edited on 7-6-2012 by SFandH] |
#1 Who made you the boss of this thread?
#2 If you read through these posts in a sane manner you will see I support the efforts to stop the senseless slaughter of protested sea life.
My comments about research and Arizona were tongue in cheek. You need to learn to appreciate satire.
|
|
|
SFandH
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7390
Registered: 8-5-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Sorry rts551 I didn't mean to be bossy. Threads often morph into political hot button topics and I didn't want that to happen here.
|
|
|
Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
|
|
With the depletion of the whale's food supply, the harvesting of some species might not be a bad thing. They may well be faced with a serious food
shortage. Man's increasing harvest of krill, their source of food, puts us in direct competion with whales.
|
|
|
willardguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6451
Registered: 9-19-2009
Member Is Offline
|
|
come on, how can you not adore these bumbling fools?
|
|
|
Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
|
|
willardguy, Good point!
|
|
|
SFandH
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7390
Registered: 8-5-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Cisco,
I understand what you and others are saying about the illegal aspects of the anti-whaling group's actions.
I'm a vegan but I don't support PETA because I think they go too far.
You said:
"When you begin taking an "Ox-Bow" type mentality and lynch-mob vigilante methods to contain what you personally do not agree with then all of mankind
is in anarchy."
I'm always suspicious of slippery slope arguments such as you present. I don't think it's necessarily so that the actions we're discussing will lead
to "all of mankind is in anarchy".
I see shades of gray, seldom is anything, for me, black and white.
[Edited on 7-6-2012 by SFandH]
|
|
|
rdrrm8e
Nomad
Posts: 252
Registered: 5-14-2007
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by willardguy
come on, how can you not adore these bumbling fools? |
Perfect....!
Only Paul is much more dangerous
|
|
|
Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by SFandH
Cisco,
I understand what you and others are saying about the illegal aspects of the anti-whaling group's actions.
I'm a vegan but I don't support PETA because I think they go too far.
You said:
"When you begin taking an "Ox-Bow" type mentality and lynch-mob vigilante methods to contain what you personally do not agree with then all of mankind
is in anarchy."
I'm always suspicious of slippery slope arguments such as you present. I don't think it's necessarily so that the actions we're discussing will lead
to "all of mankind is in anarchy".
I see shades of gray, seldom is anything, for me, black and white.
[Edited on 7-6-2012 by SFandH] |
I certainly applaud your choice of Veganism. What we have been discussing is the killing of animals and being aware of the growth and harvesting
methods utilized in the U.S. for our meat and dairy products is sickening to me. Probably was “The Jungle” although I have not read it in years it has
stayed with me.
Regarding the legality/illegality of whale harvesting as a food source I am researching some information that Sancho alerted me to and am amazed at
the world-wide pirate whaling that is in effect at this time by numerous countries.
This is opening up a whole new area of study for me and I am fascinated by the IWC history and the ability of countries to circumvent the resolutions
that have been mandated.
That though was not my entire intent on discussing in this thread. (oh, want to get this in before I forget. “The Sierra was severely damaged after
being rammed by activist Paul Watson aboard his ship, the Sea Shepherd. The Sierra was later sunk in port by unknown saboteurs with limpet mines. Paul
Watson continues to be a controversial figure at odds with whaling and particularly Japan.”) Ship sunk, people injured because I’m right and you're
wrong??? And I will stand by my statement:
"When you begin taking an "Ox-Bow" type mentality and lynch-mob vigilante methods to contain what you personally do not agree with then all of mankind
is in anarchy."
and your very perceptive “slippery slope” analogy.
I am using the whales here to hopefully project the immensity of the global problems that we have in utilizing the Earths resources and the demands
made, many times at gunpoint, to secure something we (whomever WE are) WANT and take it from the other, whether WE or the other is an individual or a
country.
When we feel that we have license, rationalize,... to justify acts against other animals, humans, social systems, then we have achieved anarchy. It is
justification of our actions. And yes, I should have confined it to that specific incident. Thanks for bringing it up.
Sometime we can talk about morality and how it impacts the legal system but I think we are getting out on the “slippery slope” a bit far for this
thread as it is.
Saludos...
|
|
|
Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
|
|
Cisco, The "slippery slope" is a downhill slide. "Ox-Bow" mentality? That's a new one! Lynch-mob? That one's pretty much worn out. See anything south
of the Mason-Dixon line that is in opposition to the current US administration.
|
|
|
rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6700
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
With the depletion of the whale's food supply, the harvesting of some species might not be a bad thing. They may well be faced with a serious food
shortage. Man's increasing harvest of krill, their source of food, puts us in direct competion with whales. |
Interesting statement. At some point with that mentality we will undoubtedly become the species that is consumed. There is no guarantee that we are
the top of the food chain.
|
|
|
shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13049
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
Member Is Offline
Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
|
|
actually Killer Whales are at the top of the food chain.
|
|
|
Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
actually Killer Whales are at the top of the food chain. |
Only because they aren't on our grocery list.
|
|
|
jbcoug
Senior Nomad
Posts: 709
Registered: 9-24-2006
Location: Vancouver, WA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Needing Baja!
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by jbcoug
I hope a number of the above posters don't fish or consume sealife, otherwise we have a lot of hypocracy going on.
John |
spoken like a true ignoramus! congratulations on your ignorance!
|
Goat,
First I want to state clearly that I am on the whales side, but I'm not above catching a fish now and then. I respect the opinions voiced by both
sides, but I don't think it is ignorant to question someone about where they draw the line between "murder" and catching dinner. The line tends to
get blurred as a matter of convenience at times. I certainly respect those that back up thier beliefs by not eating meat, your position is clear.
Since I like meat, and many other nomads at least like fish, it's harder to draw that line. I'm just trying to not be a hypocrit.
John
\"The average dog is a nicer person than the average person.\" Andy Rooney
|
|
|
estebanis
Nomad
Posts: 279
Registered: 11-11-2002
Location: Stuck North of the Border. They won\'t pay me
Member Is Offline
|
|
You all should really watch this...
I am an avid outdoorsman and this video outright attacks my lifestyle however it is an awsome film...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTJ1H0Zp6zQ
|
|
|
watizname
Senior Nomad
Posts: 792
Registered: 8-7-2009
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by motoged
| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT.....
--- I am a rather confused believer in situational ethics. I say confused because of so many questions in my mind.
[Edited on 7-5-2012 by DianaT] |
Diana,
One benefit of being confused is that it opens up more possibilities....being "certain" about something reduces one's options.
I think that we, as a species, are a virus on this planet....it is all unfolding as it is. If we were to consider ourselves to be parasites (perhaps
more generous a thought than being a virus), we still aren't even at the stage of being in a symbiotic relationship as a parasite, as both the host
(ie. the planet) and the parasite have mutual benefit in that type of parasitic relationship.
We just suck vitality and viability from our host....and what is most obscene, is that we think we are entitled to that sucking.
|
I think motoged is right on. Look at satilite photos of the earth and see how the giant developed areas
look grey, and dead, like a cancer on a living cell. That's us folks. I don't think we have much longer, in geologic time.
I yam what I yam and that\'s all what I yam.
|
|
|
gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by watizname
| Quote: | Originally posted by motoged
| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT.....
--- I am a rather confused believer in situational ethics. I say confused because of so many questions in my mind.
[Edited on 7-5-2012 by DianaT] |
Diana,
One benefit of being confused is that it opens up more possibilities....being "certain" about something reduces one's options.
I think that we, as a species, are a virus on this planet....it is all unfolding as it is. If we were to consider ourselves to be parasites (perhaps
more generous a thought than being a virus), we still aren't even at the stage of being in a symbiotic relationship as a parasite, as both the host
(ie. the planet) and the parasite have mutual benefit in that type of parasitic relationship.
We just suck vitality and viability from our host....and what is most obscene, is that we think we are entitled to that sucking.
|
I think motoged is right on. Look at satilite photos of the earth and see how the giant developed areas
look grey, and dead, like a cancer on a living cell. That's us folks. I don't think we have much longer, in geologic time. |
Can you people get a grip on yourselves?
Humans are a life form like any other, they are not evil nor do humans suck imperatively. When people build cities to live in they do so because it
meets the needs of society, people living in cities is more efficient and uses less space and resources. The fact that cities are built of cement and
are grey doesn't make them inherently bad. Nor is countryside somehow always better. The truth is humans are a species and have every right and reason
to make things, eat things, produce waste and to live. Cows, fish, and insects are no different.
Certainly you would agree living inside a beehive, or ant hill or bat cave may seem claustrophobic but it serves the needs of the organism.
The idea that people are bad because they exist is purely a false idea designed to produce guilt and use that guilt to oppress people. The idea of
Gaia, Agenda 21 and Anthopogenic Global Warming are demonstratable to be false, their roots are well documented as purely social ideas to control
people.
Whereas the truth is organisms do come and go, they do become extinct always in every case. The idea that people should die or be restricted so that
an near extinct animal can live or so that one persons idea of society can be cut from anothers existence is pure nonsense based in beliefs not in any
science nor beneficial practice.
It was Malthus who promoted the idea that human population would grow faster than food production and that humans would die due to lack of resources.
Malthus was wrong, we have the ability to produce as much or more food than we need. Except that the current UN and USA admin still quotes and claims
to believe in Malthus and his ideas are promoted by Holdren et al under Obama.
The truth is people do not suck, they are not a plague, people are beautiful just like flowers or birds.
The thing that sucks is war, aggression, the endless death toll wrought by US military against civilians all for profit for the military industrial
complex.
But instead of being brave enough to say that we are all responsible for the endless terror, torture and rape by the US military, you have cowards
here blaming people for living in a city as a form of evil?
Take a moment and turn off the TV and perhaps using pen and paper start writing down your priorities, make columns for pro and con and jot down
reasons why you think humans suck vs. other organisms. Try to identify what really sucks, what is absurd and what mechanisms are really harmful. Then
try to give reasons to support your ideas. Perhaps using this method you will come to different conclusions than the idea that people are bad. Whats
bad is hierarchical systems that promote oppression of one over another, especially those that use violence and aggression to profit.
[Edited on 7-7-2012 by gnukid]
|
|
|
Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
| Quote: | Originally posted by watizname
| Quote: | Originally posted by motoged
| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT.....
--- I am a rather confused believer in situational ethics. I say confused because of so many questions in my mind.
[Edited on 7-5-2012 by DianaT] |
Diana,
One benefit of being confused is that it opens up more possibilities....being "certain" about something reduces one's options.
I think that we, as a species, are a virus on this planet....it is all unfolding as it is. If we were to consider ourselves to be parasites (perhaps
more generous a thought than being a virus), we still aren't even at the stage of being in a symbiotic relationship as a parasite, as both the host
(ie. the planet) and the parasite have mutual benefit in that type of parasitic relationship.
We just suck vitality and viability from our host....and what is most obscene, is that we think we are entitled to that sucking.
|
I think motoged is right on. Look at satilite photos of the earth and see how the giant developed areas
look grey, and dead, like a cancer on a living cell. That's us folks. I don't think we have much longer, in geologic time. |
Can you people get a grip on yourselves?
Humans are a life form like any other, they are not evil nor do humans suck imperatively. When people build cities to live in they do so because it
meets the needs of society, people living in cities is more efficient and uses less space and resources. The fact that cities are built of cement and
are grey doesn't make them inherently bad. Nor is countryside somehow always better. The truth is humans are a species and have every right and reason
to make things, eat things, produce waste and to live. Cows, fish, and insects are no different.
Certainly you would agree living inside a beehive, or ant hill or bat cave may seem claustrophobic but it serves the needs of the organism.
The idea that people are bad because they exist is purely a false idea designed to produce guilt and use that guilt to oppress people. The idea of
Gaia, Agenda 21 and Anthopogenic Global Warming are demonstratable to be false, their roots are well documented as purely social ideas to control
people.
Whereas the truth is organisms do come and go, they do become extinct always in every case. The idea that people should die or be restricted so that
an near extinct animal can live or so that one persons idea of society can be cut from anothers existence is pure nonsense based in beliefs not in any
science nor beneficial practice.
It was Malthus who promoted the idea that human population would grow faster than food production and that humans would die due to lack of resources.
Malthus was wrong, we have the ability to produce as much or more food than we need. Except that the current UN and USA admin still quotes and claims
to believe in Malthus and his ideas are promoted by Holdren et al under Obama.
The truth is people do not suck, they are not a plague, people are beautiful just like flowers or birds.
The thing that sucks is war, aggression, the endless death toll wrought by US military against civilians all for profit for the military industrial
complex.
But instead of being brave enough to say that we are all responsible for the endless terror, torture and rape by the US military, you have cowards
here blaming people for living in a city as a form of evil?
Take a moment and turn off the TV and perhaps using pen and paper start writing down your priorities, make columns for pro and con and jot down
reasons why you think humans suck vs. other organisms. Try to identify what really sucks, what is absurd and what mechanisms are really harmful. Then
try to give reasons to support your ideas. Perhaps using this method you will come to different conclusions than the idea that people are bad. Whats
bad is hierarchical systems that promote oppression of one over another, especially those that use violence and aggression to profit.
[Edited on 7-7-2012 by gnukid] |
Amen!!!
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
..
8 |
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
