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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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What a waste! At present fur prices a decent bobcat hide can be worth up to $500 USA. How much is a goat worth?
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astrobaja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 952
Registered: 5-22-2006
Location: near San Pedro Martir Park
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Mood: beam me up
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I grew up on a farm which my family ran for over 30 years in Ontario Canada, its great to say this is the desert way here in Baja but I just see it as
a typical rancher attitude that transends any question of borders. We saw this sort of thing with a lot of the farmers back in Ontario too, shooting
timber wolves, snowy owls and raptors of all kinds!
We had a large sheep operation for a good 10 years, my Dad instead of leaving them outside at night would gather them up every evening with a little
sweet feed and put them in the barn where they were safe and sound.
It comes down to being willing to work WITH nature rather than adopting an ignorant adversarial position. Here in the SPM the last wild condor was
shot by a well known local rancher in the 70's just because they thought condors killed cattle when of course they are carrion feeders!
The answer lies in education, teaching the ranchers that leaving the predators makes for a more sound ecosystem and to give them strategies to work
towards sustainable practices! A tough sell, ranchers can be very stubbornly ignorant! I know I grew up around them!
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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Curt63
Super Nomad
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Registered: 3-28-2009
Location: San Diego, Ca.
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Mood: Fish tacos and Tecate
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My dad was 7 when the depression hit. Where he lived, Western Pennsylvania, people helped people and no one was stealing anything. The only laws they
broke were hunting seasons and limits and no one even attempted to enforce such laws.
As dad and brothers walked to school, each had a rifle and took carefully planned hunting routes to school. It was perfectly acceptable to miss school
and spend the the day dressing and canning anything they shot.
Im not saying it was right or wrong. Its just what they did. I live in a different world.
No worries
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Mulegena
Super Nomad
Posts: 2412
Registered: 11-7-2006
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I appreciate astrobaja's sentiments and experiences.
Let me say that the mountain goats do come in at night of their own volition. The ranchers do have dogs as well which protect the animals. They do
free-range during the day after being milked. The ranchers cannot keep these animals penned if for no reason other than the expense of food. There is
also the expense of the cost of fencing material. Additionally the animals must range in order to find water.
We considered buying a few milk-producing goats, lecheras, with the intention to develop a herd. My husband's brother was to have been our partner and
herd manager. After talking with numerous mountain goat ranchers we nixed the idea as being economically unfeasable, read "a sure way to lose our
investment fast".
Its not to defend the destruction of wildlife, I can't and won't do that for I feel that its wrong. Its simply that this is a reality in the world of
goat ranchers. They barely eke out a subsistence lifestyle and barely manage to feed, house and educate their families. They often must pick up and
move their entire ranch when the water supply dries up. Life is brutally hard for these mountain ranch people. They live in a manner that is primitive
by our standards, even by the standards of the people who have migrated out of the mountains to villages in search of a more secure lifestyle. They
are not killing these animals for the joy of it or because its a more simple solution. They are not ignorant of the ecology or the law. They are
simply trying to survive in this harsh land.
"Raise your words, not your voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder." ~Rumi
"It's the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~ Aristotle
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astrobaja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 952
Registered: 5-22-2006
Location: near San Pedro Martir Park
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Mood: beam me up
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I understand what you are saying Mulegena, the ecology here being so very dry is much harsher than where I grew up for sure!
But that said there are programs in place to help these ranchers with funds for fencing, solar pumping, etc. Often though the information never gets
to them and they are reluctant to take advantage of them. For good reasons gov't programs are often not trusted (in any country!)
Here in the sierra theres comparitivly speaking more water, and the ranchers (some) DO take pleasure in killing the wildlife just cause they can, this
I find deplorable!
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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Mulegena
Super Nomad
Posts: 2412
Registered: 11-7-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by astrobaja
But that said there are programs in place to help these ranchers with funds for fencing, solar pumping, etc. Often though the information never gets
to them and they are reluctant to take advantage of them. For good reasons gov't programs are often not trusted (in any country!)
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Again, I'm not speaking for anybody up in La Purisima, but what I've heard also concurs with your statement. I've heard that this funding never
reaches the folks who need it. Sadly, its misappropriated and given to the dispersers' relatives. Heinous, indeed, all around.
"Raise your words, not your voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder." ~Rumi
"It's the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~ Aristotle
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Tried to have goats on my property. Due to wolf and cougar predation it's not possible. Can live with it. But!!! Goats aren't my source of income. If
they were, wolves and cougars would be eliminated by gun, traps, and any other means available. Coyotes? No problemo! The wolves exterminate 'em.
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vgabndo
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 12-8-2003
Location: Mt. Shasta, CA
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Mood: Checking-off my bucket list.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Less than 30 years ago, in the western ranching areas of the USA, this use to be common practice--------I saw hundreds of coyotes hanging on fences
thruout Nevada, Utah, Wyoming and western Colorado.
Barry |
It's a different world now Barry. Ethics have changed.
People now lament over what the europeans did to the native americans. But isn't this similar. You move in and blast away at anything that's
troublesome, man or beast. There is no attempt to coexist.
We had a rancher here in HMB lose cattle to a local cougar. Do you think anyone was demanding the death of the cougar?
If you can't deal with the problems of living next to a national park or wilderness area then relocate to an area where you feel comfortable. Those
are TODAY'S ethics.
Yes, it's different in baja but I still feel that ranchers (especially that hawk) can do more on their part. |
In Siskiyou County CA the practice of bragging about killing indigenous dogs is alive and well. Half a mile NE of the Little Shasta Cemetery is a
roadside tree at the intersection. There must be a hundred coyote tails nailed to it.
Those ranchers who have moved on from their lizard brains keep a few Llamas with the herds and flocks.
In San Nicolas' they would string the little foxes on the fence.
Here in Mt. Shasta our little Red Fox who comes through the yard every day is only slightly larger than our cats. She has just about finished-off the
last of the Gray Squirrels who live in the Black Oaks in the neighborhood. I suspect she'll move on then. We'll see how the rodent population bounces
back after that. She's the first in 15 years so it might take a while for the Grays to come back.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15939
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
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Mood: Everchangin'
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same road 2005
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MexicoTed
Senior Nomad
Posts: 708
Registered: 8-2-2004
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Thanks for all the info, we did understand it was cultural. We also thought the same thing, but one of the group suggested by having so many animals
strung up, the rancher was also "showing" other predators what would happen to them. By the way, there was 1 raptor, 1 coyote and 6 bobcats total.
You'll see in the images that only the legs were left on the wires as it was apparent that other animals had torn down the body and eaten it.
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LancairDriver
Super Nomad
Posts: 1603
Registered: 2-22-2008
Location: On the Road
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Its hard to understand how some who live closest to nature seem to have the least respect for it. I have a few neighbors in rural Oregon who shoot
every single Racoon, Beaver, Coyote, Fox or any living thing they happen to see. Simply because they can, no valid economic or safety reason.
Some brain dead ranchers in Ventura Co. CA are credited with wiping out almost the entire California Condor population in the 1950's by lacing dead
cattle with strychnine in an attempt to poison Coyotes. Never occurred to them who or what else might be affected.
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Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3397
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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Mood: Happy!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by LancairDriver
Its hard to understand how some who live closest to nature seem to have the least respect for it. I have a few neighbors in rural Oregon who shoot
every single Racoon, Beaver, Coyote, Fox or any living thing they happen to see. Simply because they can, no valid economic or safety reason.
Some brain dead ranchers in Ventura Co. CA are credited with wiping out almost the entire California Condor population in the 1950's by lacing dead
cattle with strychnine in an attempt to poison Coyotes. Never occurred to them who or what else might be affected. |
I imagine the sheep ranchers up in the valley take out quite a few animals as well. never seen a coyote or cat in Bandon...
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LancairDriver
Super Nomad
Posts: 1603
Registered: 2-22-2008
Location: On the Road
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
| Quote: | Originally posted by LancairDriver
Its hard to understand how some who live closest to nature seem to have the least respect for it. I have a few neighbors in rural Oregon who shoot
every single Racoon, Beaver, Coyote, Fox or any living thing they happen to see. Simply because they can, no valid economic or safety reason.
Some brain dead ranchers in Ventura Co. CA are credited with wiping out almost the entire California Condor population in the 1950's by lacing dead
cattle with strychnine in an attempt to poison Coyotes. Never occurred to them who or what else might be affected. |
I imagine the sheep ranchers up in the valley take out quite a few animals as well. never seen a coyote or cat in Bandon... |
Nope. Rare sight. The ranchers and paid government "trappers" pretty well eliminate the Coyotes and Cats using poison and snares around Bandon. The
cranberry growers eliminate the deer, who love to graze in the wide open unfenced cranberry fields, and the timber company's pay the trappers to
eliminate the bears, who eat bark from their trees before the berries start to come in late summer. The government trappers officially are told to
keep their toll secret to avoid upsetting the public.
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DavidT
Nomad
Posts: 494
Registered: 4-9-2005
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Yea, just let the government do it.
http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/government/article_8a9553fe-c...
David
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.
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bajacalifornian
Super Nomad
Posts: 1117
Registered: 9-4-2010
Location: Loreto/Lopez Mateos/Rosarito
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Mulegena gives the answer as explained to me . . . also in the same region. Some believe it sends a special message to others, of the same species.
American by birth, Mexican by choice.
Signature addendum: Danish physicist — Niels Bohr — who said, “The opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth.
Jeff Petersen
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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$500. US dollars , wasted, hanging from a tree. But a $2.00 goat is saved!
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BajaBruno
Super Nomad
Posts: 1035
Registered: 9-6-2006
Location: Back in CA
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Cypress, a prime, winter coat, North Idaho bobcat may be worth $500, though I'm leery of even that, but a scrawny summer desert bobcat? I doubt it's
worth the salt to dry that pelt.
I'm amazed that there are that many bobcats who can scratch out a living in that country.
As for seeing them, well, even in the hills where I was raised, where they were thick and fat, one never saw them except with a spotlight carefully
placed at night. They are very shy and nocturnal and just don't show themselves when you can easily see them.
Christopher Bruno, Elk Grove, CA.
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burnrope
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Posts: 214
Registered: 10-24-2006
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St. Ambrose, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
Sly & the Family Stone, "Different strokes for different folks."
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