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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
I do indeed believe that Mother Theresa would have run the ovens of Auschwitz had she not had some formative developmental experiences that mitigated
against this.
Of Theresa you say “Not on her worst day and she wouldn't have had to control any impulse to the contrary.” I wonder. |
It might interest some to know that N-zis didn't operate the crematorias, Jews did.
My father was a survivor. One of my uncles a Sonderkommando.
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
toneart,
I really like how you said this
"Do a gut check. How do bloodsports, war, cruelty, torture make you feel? If you have been desensitized by life's experiences so as to not feel much,
can you reach back and remember how you felt about these things as a child?"
That sounds like a very good moral compass to me. I have come to understand the concept of sin as a choice not to follow this compass.
Having said that I have to be very careful applying my compass to your or anyone else’s journey. That is the rub. Does the other person want a
compass? Is my compass of any use or value to them? Do they have their own way of navigating? If I offer my compass am I inherently saying that theirs
is flawed?
I once had a professional philosopher in my boat. We fished many a time before I inquired as to his profession. I told him I had a philosopher in my
boat all the time. I told him that philosopher started the engine each time I turned the key. We had a good laugh with that. Anyway he told me that as
a philosopher, his field is Medical Ethics, that the important thing is to ask the questions that others may not have asked. The answers will emerge,
ask good questions he told me.
I like your questions a lot. Do a gut check. Think about your history and acculturation. Do you feel ok doing what you are doing? Ask yourself
questions about yourself. I like that a lot.
Iflyfish |
Yes, I agree that one needs to be careful when comparing moral compasses. We all come from different backgrounds and experiences, but we arrive at
being comfortable with ourselves in relation to the world by being honest in our hearts. It is not being self-righteous. It is the work we choose to
do. The goal is to evolve and rise to a higher state of being.
Comparing moral compasses from the heart is an opportunity for learning. If one truly has an open heart he/she can speak their truth and hear the
truth of others. They can well be different truths. True, some really don't want it. No sense in forcing it.
By offering your own compass you are not declaring the other's flawed, because it is your truth. The caution comes from people not considering or
seeing the whole. They may be egocentric and therefore impervious to external input, no matter what is the intent of the giver. They may also be
having a bad day and mood definitely colors sensory perceptions.
Another caveat in comparing moral compasses is to be aware of your delivery style. Are you pontificating? That's an easy trap to fall into. Some
bloviate! (That has become my new favorite word, learned right here on
BajaNomad).
Finally (whew!). The medium we are using here is the written word. It is risky. I am aware it sounds a bit airy-fairy, although I assure the reader I
am neither, having my feet and my manhood firmly anchored in the everyday world. Having said all this, I prefer to teach by example.
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by fdt
Here goes again:
Do the people that hate c-ckfighting, bullfighting, turtleeating and so on know that all of this is going on before entering México?
If they do, do they know that it's part of the culture?
Are they here to change it?
Do they want it to be the same as what they left behind?
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to accept, they don't have to participate. |
Probably most do know this is going on before entering Mexico. Probably they do know that it's part of the culture. Some don't.
Are they here to change it? Probably not.
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to accept? Yes.
It is true they don't have to participate.
May I give my perspective on this? There are things in every culture that I don't like or agree with. In my country (USA) our Constitution gives us
the right to speak about things(in the USA) we disagree with. It is not the easy path to take and it is often uncomfortable. I speak out when I see an
injustice; to the planet, to humans and to animals. We humans are gifted with a conscience and the ability to make judgments. We are the stewards and
protectors of the earth.
We inhabitants of this planet, and the planet itself, are not infinite beings. For example, turtles are an endangered species; turkeys are not. In my
view, survival of species trumps customs.
I can't really respect a custom that is destructive, but that doesn't mean I don't like the culture. I didn't come to Mexico with the purpose of
changing it. If the subject comes up in my presence, I will try to influence, but not lecture. My example of not participating will be my way.
I am more critical of my own culture because I have a right to.
When in Mexico, fortunately I find more to like in its people, its scenic beauty and its customs than not. I am a guest. I will not be rude. Having
said that, I realize that not participating could be considered rude. So be it.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Dave
You share a true but not often reported story. Not all camps, not all Jews, but some collaborated and identified with the oppressor. Who among us
could say with absolute certainty that we would not do this? Many of the French collaborated with the N-zis and it became normative to do so.
You make the point exactly with your post. Patty Hearst, the woman taken hostage by the Black Panthers in essence joined them.
People wondered how this could ever happen in Germany. Germany was the most civilized, advanced culture in the world. The language of science was
German, the great philosophers of the time were German, great literature, art and music were being produced in Germany. WWI damaged the German psyche.
The humiliation experienced at Versailles projected onto the Jews and they retaliated. Nations act like people. Nations and cultures have histories
that affect them. I wonder what role the losing of Viet Nam played in the enthusiasm for Shock and Awe. I wonder what role being a conquered people
has played in the development of Mexican culture?
There are reasons that Mexicans act like Mexicans and NorteAmericanos act like NorteAmericanos. Often the reasons given are fallacious, but the
differences are real. Long standing differences may even be genetic. Cultures must develop ways to channel the collective emotions of the people and
to act out the drama of their sense of self.
Thanks for weighing in on this.
Iflyfish
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FARASHA
Senior Nomad
Posts: 848
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Dave
You share a true but not often reported story. Not all camps, not all Jews, but some collaborated and identified with the oppressor. Who among us
could say with absolute certainty that we would not do this? Many of the French collaborated with the N-zis and it became normative to do so.
You make the point exactly with your post. Patty Hearst, the woman taken hostage by the Black Panthers in essence joined them.
People wondered how this could ever happen in Germany. Germany was the most civilized, advanced culture in the world. The language of science was
German, the great philosophers of the time were German, great literature, art and music were being produced in Germany. WWI damaged the German psyche.
The humiliation experienced at Versailles projected onto the Jews and they retaliated. Nations act like people. Nations and cultures have histories
that affect them. I wonder what role the losing of Viet Nam played in the enthusiasm for Shock and Awe. I wonder what role being a conquered people
has played in the development of Mexican culture?
There are reasons that Mexicans act like Mexicans and NorteAmericanos act like NorteAmericanos. Often the reasons given are fallacious, but the
differences are real. Long standing differences may even be genetic. Cultures must develop ways to channel the collective emotions of the people and
to act out the drama of their sense of self.
Thanks for weighing in on this.
Iflyfish |
Flyfisher - you are talking about the "Stockholm Syndrom", a survival instinct = rather collaborate/Identify with the traitor then to be
erradicated!!!
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FARASHA
Senior Nomad
Posts: 848
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A Question: I have been asking myself since this thread has started to go on and on SOOOO well ( with minor interferences)
- HOW many of the posters on this thread are MALE ? I'm NOT.
Why I want to know?? - seems to me ( but I can be totally wrong) - that this is a NON subject to females?? If so - WHY??
I could identify so far just 1 other female (beside me).
And it would be VERY interesting to hear femal voices about this subject, especially Mexican Females!!
And I could NOT identify another mexican voice beside "fdt".
Or did I oversee something/someone?
Like toneart posted , which I totally agree with, and saves me the time to repeat the same(THANKS  )in length.
- I do not go to other countries/culture to patronise them. And if I do not like some things - well thats a different cultur - non of MY business to
tell them better, if not understanding the background, history etc...
So I rather will not take part of something in one way or other. OR when getting involved for some reason, I might ask them for information about the
WHY, HOW, WHAT.....and have a conversation about the DIFFERENCES in CULTUR.
And did learn a lot, even I did not like some stuff, but still I learned!!
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kellychapman
Nomad
Posts: 246
Registered: 9-19-2006
Location: Loreto CBS
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Mood: heavenly
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Here's a little disclaimer before I post more little culture things -- my tombstone will read "Don't go by me". Nothing sinister intended -- just
some random thoughts from a harmless old man.
Inside
The cactus wren steps carefully, gingerly, between the thorns of the cholla to build its nest. She lines the nest with twigs, strips of palm, bits
of shredded bark until the nest is protecting the bird, later the tiny delicate eggs, and eventually chicks, from the tips of the deadly spikes.
Like the cholla, Mexico protects its way of life, continues its slow, steady breathing, preserving the core heat of the millions of people it holds,
nurtures, by producing spikes and thorns of another kind. They are just as sharp, waiting to prick and puncture invaders with thin skin or clumsy
movement.
The cactus stands motionless. Waiting. Mexico waits, admits the faceless pilgrims, the uninvited fat, pink immigrants. No need for a fence south
of the Rio Grande. No sudden skirmishes, no more guns and swords; the bloody collision of divergent cultures -- that was the age of Cortez. New
World cultures grind slowly, inexorably past those of Old Mexico. The grinding bruises everyone.
The pink ones suffer kindness unrequited, social slights. Unreturned visits, gifts, pleasantries can sting and bruise. Newcomers may perceive a
real or imagined meanness in the manner of those officials, public servants, who can smooth their path but often wear the thorns of duplicity. A
system biased and unjust can chaff and insult anyone not insulated by the accident of being born on Mexican soil.
The Americans. The Americans and the Canadians bruise, bleed more than most. They have been softened, weakened by decades of warm winds and full
bellies. Many run back bleeding, frightened, disappointed.
Those that stay have not changed, have not grown stronger -- like the wren, they have found the secret. They can only feel safe and warm after they
have experienced all the cuts, bruises on the thorny top layer of the place; after they have fought their way inside. |
these random thoughts from an old man ( I do not know him or anything about him) are words from the wise and so eloquently put.....thank you for the
wonderful way you touch the soul......and now I am trying to figure what this is all about because I don't quite get the meaning of all this...I'll be
back.
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kellychapman
Nomad
Posts: 246
Registered: 9-19-2006
Location: Loreto CBS
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Mood: heavenly
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| Quote: | Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
I’m sorry, but I don’t understand the big taboo about respectfully discussing cultural differences. The definition of “different”
certainly doesn’t infer bad, odd, weird, inferior or any other negative connotation; it simply means not the same. IMHO, I think it’s better to be
aware that there ARE cultural differences & to be aware of what those differences may be. Too many people come to Mexico with their own cultural
expectations, which can lead to rudeness & disrespect for not having their expectations met. It can also lead to having their bubbles burst &
dissatisfaction over what reality is versus their expectations. Knowing in advance what some of the cultural differences are, removes the rose
colored glasses & I think that personal expectations can be set aside to allow for a smoother transition & acceptance of the differences.
I believe it’s a combination of the entire atmosphere that attracts us initially; the unique & awesome landscape, different climate, the warmth of
the people, cultural diversity…to name a few. We should know, respect & celebrate those differences! Whether we fully understand them or not, we
do need to respect them, for they are an inherent part of our host country. If we expect everything to be the same as wherever we come from, then
there wouldn’t be any desire or need to venture this far from our roots!
I have talked with my Mexican friends about our cultural differences, I tried to explain where I’m coming from & how most Norteamericanos think,
feel, & why, and they’ve attempted to get me to understand the same from their perspective. Some of these conversations were very enlightening,
some frustrating, but they were all amiable! We each came away with a better respect, if not understanding, of our cultural differences; and in some
instances, we have agreed to disagree! There are some things we will never see totally eye-to-eye on, but we each accept that!
Understanding that there are cultural differences is the first step, attempting to understand those differences is the second step, acceptance, or at
a minimum, tolerance of those differences is the ultimate step!
I will be the first to want this thread removed if it becomes a shooting gallery! It IS possible to have a respectful discussion without name-calling
or stereotypical mud-slinging posts. |
I realize I am a bit late getting involved in this thread, but my dear freind Farasha asked for another woman's opinion and respecting someone who is
a very experienced traveler I decided to check it out....I thought I was getting it down and was getting somewhere. When I read this quote I was
blown away by clearing my fog and then I read the last statement about this being a shooting gallary and removing this thread and it is was like 2
different people writing......the first so enlighting and then an ending leaving me feel awful. I hate threats as they make me feel bad or afraid to
be honest and especially after making me feel so good. I can't even figure myself out let alone as to why I would live in Mexico and want it like the
USA where I was raised. Why bother coming here at all and just go to Hawaii.......I LOVE THE MEXICANS AND RESPECT THEIR CULTURE and I can no more
expect them to understand me then go to the moon....I don't understand PEOPLE in general ( the world issues at least validate I am not stupid or
crazy)....let alone their cultures....they are happy people and I just want to be happy.....they treat me like gold and I offer the same treatment
back.....so what goes around really does come around. And the great news ......you can always leave and never come back if you so choose because we
can.......I LOVE MEXICO......it has more then surpassed my expectations and I will be buried here......a good reason for my Son's to come relive the
happiness of our lives together.....You get a weekend here every year to have a party...and even after your dead.......and I need to understand
that.....I do not think so....doesn't make being dead such a fearful thing.....no options on that issue. Back to cultural issues.......if one does
not understand there are vast differences then stay in areas you can relate and understand......I can understand how this could go on and
on.....when I was in New Orleans....the culture differences...before Katrina....were every other block.....I also loved New Orleans......it is never
ending but yet the only word to go along with different cultures to me is ...RESPECT WHERE AND WHO YOU ARE WITH......we have enough BS going on this
earth without stepping in it on this thread....of course there are always accidents sometimes.....
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Hi Kelly,
Good to hear from you.
I like your perspective. We have been discussing cultural differences. We have been trying to do so in a way that acknowledges them without
criticizing the other. Often people deal with differences by criticizing the other. We have been pretty successful.
This thread grew out of another thread where cultural differences were being criticized and it was becoming acrimonious. So I decided to start a
thread where these things could be discussed as differences.
Most recently we have been discussing things like bullfights, c-ckfights, turtle soup etc. These are topics that often lead to a lot of rancor. Finger
pointing and moralizing. We have been discussing the use of bullfights, c-ckfights, boxing matches, football games as a way for cultures to channel
their aggressive urges. This discussion of course requires us to look at our own urges and that can be difficult.
Thanks for checking in.
Farasha, I am a man. I like your question and would also like to hear more from native Mexicans on differences that they see in our cultures. I think
that NorteAmericanos tend to view these differences as being only one way. Mexicans are different from us period. It is harder to see the bone in our
own nose.
Iflyfish
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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Iflyfish-
Your statement suggesting that differences in people may be partly genetic is going down a slippery slope. I would say that we can't look at cultural
differences by declaring that people are different because of the genes they were born with, and leave it at that. The premise requires some
qualification. Genetic memory (Carl Jung) is shaped by many many generations of cultural behavior. We reach the point where we aren't even
aware of the long path we took to get here....but we are here because we were represented in our genetic heritage, before we were born. I hope I am
not nit-picking here. I just know that when genetics are identified as causal, people tend to bristle.
Farasha-
Do you believe that this discussion is a non-issue for women? Do you feel you are going against the tide by being interested?
Fortunately, others women have jumped in since you posted that. I am not certain, because I am not a woman, but I don't think that interest in this
topic is gender specific.
I have not made a study of this and I have not taken a count. These are just my impressions because I really did ponder your question. It seems that
there are more men participating as Nomads than there are women. I have also observed that most of the women who participate are living full time in
Baja, and they are very busy. A greater percentage of men are part-timers or are retired. They have more time on their hands.
Anyway, I always appreciate your contributions.
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fdt
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4059
Registered: 9-7-2003
Location: Tijuana, Baja California
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Mood: Yeah, what if it all goes right
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Just as a note
I don't think many mexicans in México post here, or are there?
Lets count them
fernadetijuana = fdt ....1
= .....2
= ....3
= ....4
algun otro?
A well informed Baja California traveler is a smart Baja California traveler!
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FARASHA
Senior Nomad
Posts: 848
Registered: 6-3-2006
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Finally back on OUR thread - busy days nowadays at work.
Great Kelly that you finally turned up here - you are living fulltime in BCS - I wonder if you have contact with Mexican women? IF so what differences
can you see?
YES toneart, I agree - this board IS male dominated by those reasons you mentioned, I figured this too.
And NO I do not feel that I'm standing alone with my point of view. Rather the other way around, quite often in my Life I get to hear that I'm too
analytical/rational, which dosn't apply for a WOMAN (for some people). I find myself often in a rather male led discussion, then in a femal tea
circle.
That made me here wonder again, as I thought this is an NON gender related issue - so why no females??
I just missed some femal voices, in addition to Mexican voices.
It's my profession kicking in - to hear ALL perspectives on a Subject. And for those who will now ask - I'm working in the mental departement. So
human behavior and their reasons/results are my daily business.
I found many posts on this thread that saved me the time to post myself. THANKS to them
I am glad to find out that the cultural differences between an Austrian and Baja Nomads are not that far apart as the one from USA and Mexican 
NOW lets continue!!
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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I lost track...........
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FARASHA
Senior Nomad
Posts: 848
Registered: 6-3-2006
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TO fdt Bajacactus comes in my mind, or am I wrong?
Then I think - Aldosalato??Jesse?? (edited 12/7)
And I guess Sirenita is considered a mexican too ( at least 50%). And she is a youngster, that has maybe an interesting perspective, as her mom Shari
(although not a native but lives fulltime for a loooong period WITH locals) - but both are right now SHAKEN and not up for a discussion, hopefully
they turn up soon.
When I was in Baja last May/June, I found it amazing that the Mexican Women I met were rather socializing with me, then the Femal EX-Pats!!
And the Mexican friend I made there -she is still in contact with me! Chatting or e-mailing me once in a while.
SO there are some cultural differences, I did not expect.
The only Americans interested in socializing and are still in contact, were also Tourists.
Was an interesting outcome for me!
The other pople I know now -Living in Baja are NOMADS from this Board - Amazing! Where have you been guys whn I was there!!????
[Edited on 7-12-2006 by FARASHA]
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
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Location: Punta Banda
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I've heard it said in Mexico that the United States, due to its young age, actually has no culture of its own. This is nonsense of course given our
European roots and imported cultural identities. It is more a way of saying the U.S. hasn't the refinement to be considered "cultural". I first came
across this ugly premiss when reading a quote from a lady high in one of the past administrations, Rosario Green. It must have been an election
year.
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Oso
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2637
Registered: 8-29-2003
Location: on da border
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Mood: wait and see
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Who can ID who said this? It might have been Mark Twain, but I'm thinking more of some 1920's writer/playwright. Anyway, it was an American at a
dinner party in London and the subject of history came up. Some Grande Dame remarked that Americans had none of their own and asked what
sort of history Americans studied?
"We study the wars of George III", was the reply.
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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Have no idea but the idea is contemporary with George II.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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toneart,
I agree with your post. I do not believe in predestination alone. I believe we have choices to make. I too like to inform my choices by my feelings
and my thinking. I have been challenging the ethnocentricity that I see in Mexican bashing. It is easy to spew hostility at Mexicans and Mexico when
Mexicans do not operate the same way that NorteAmericanos do. I am trying to point out that certain behaviors like blood sports may have a cultural
value in our own culture as well as that of Mexico. I am trying to point out that the underlying motivation for activities like bullfighting may be no
different than football and may have a common denominator.
I do not find your comments nitpicking but thoughtful responses to the issues raised here.
Farasha,
"Stockholm Syndrome" is exactly what I was talking about. I think there is that potential in all of us. We are in part a product of our context. Our
context shapes us as well as does our internal compass. There is a bullfighter, c-ckfighter, football aficionado, boxer in all of us. These creatures
suffer and die for us.
Ilfyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Dennis,
There indeed is an American Culture and it is alive and well. I copied this from Wikipedia.
Alexis-Charles-Henri Clérel de Tocqueville (Verneuil-sur-Seine, Île-de-France, July 29, 1805– Cannes, April 16, 1859) was a French political thinker
and historian. His most famous works are Democracy in America (appearing in two volumes: 1835 and 1840) and The Old Regime and the Revolution (1856).
In both of these works, he explored the myriad and profound effects of the rising equality of social conditions on both the individual and the state
in western societies. Democracy in America (1835), his major work published after his travels in the United States, is today considered as a
founding-stone of sociology. An eminent representative of the liberal political tradition, Tocqueville was also an active participant in French
politics, first under the July Monarchy (1830-1848) and then during the Second Republic (1849-51) which succeeded to the February 1848 Revolution. He
retired from political life after Louis Napoléon Bonaparte's December 2, 1851 coup, and thereafter wrote his unachieved opus, The Old Regime and the
Revolution.
Had a Big Mack lately? Seen any gangsta clothes lately? Seen a movie lately? Seen Madonna on a cross in the last year or so?
The culture of the USofA is a powerful force in the world and resisted mightily in the Middle East where it challenges centuries of cultural
tradition.
Iflyfish
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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All these deep thoughts are making me look for a personal flotation device.
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