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Barry A.
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----------but Fish and Goat-----you never commented on David K's original point, namely where can you cite an example of the Socialist/Communist
System really working without liberal amounts of Capitalist doctrines being also used to spur their economies??
Barry
(ed. to correct at least some spelling errors)
[Edited on 10-28-2011 by Barry A.]
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
----------but Fish and Goat-----you never commented on David K's original point, namely where can you cite an example of the Socialist/Communist
System really working without liberal amounts of Capitalist doctrines being also used to spur their economies?? |
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Re-distribution (communism/ socialism) has failed everywhere it was tried... but the left doesn't learn from the past. |
Barry: define "failed."
Many commy/socialist systems have succeeded in improving the lives of their citizens over multiple generations. Yes, governments have failed, but
persistence of governments are irrelevant in the big picture. Governments come and go, and capitalist governments come/go too.
I can cite many examples of capitalist societies where the majority of citizens still live in poverty and isolation. I can cite many commy/socialist
countries where resulted in modernized/educated populace. Yes, governments may have failed in the end, but big whoop! The people are still doing OK
under new govt.
Nothing says the USA government will persist forever. And who is to say the next government won't be better? I can think of many things that need
improvement, and perhaps a revolution is only way to get past our dysfunctional government hamstrung by special interests bankrolled by the 1%.
[Edited on 10-28-2011 by mtgoat666]
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Iflyfish
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Barry A.
"you never commented on David K's original point, namely where can you cite an example of the Socialist/Communist System really working without
liberal amounts of Capitalist doctrines being also used to spur their economies??"
If this is true then the inverse is also true. You have never seen an example of a Capitalist System really working with out liberal amounts of
Socialist/Communist elements in place.
There are no totally Socialist, Communist or Capitalist countries. All economies are comprised of a mixture of elements of these economic
philosophies.
http://bizfinance.about.com/od/smallbusinessissues/qt/CapvsS...
The issue is how one balances these PHILOSOPIES into a system that works.
I have not reponded to David K's assertion before because it is based upon a false assumption. Economics at the macro level are not an either/or
Socialist/Communist proposition as the Corporate Media would have us believe. This is the logical fallacy of "False Dichotomy".
Iflyfish
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TMW
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If the Occupy Wall Street movement people want changes and jobs they are pretty dumb because they are in the wrong place. They need to move about 225
miles southwest to a place called Washington DC. They must have been listening to Joe and Goats instruction for the protest. Like the AT&T Flash
commercial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd8ppk0UCx8
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
----------but Fish and Goat-----you never commented on David K's original point, namely where can you cite an example of the Socialist/Communist
System really working without liberal amounts of Capitalist doctrines being also used to spur their economies??
Barry
(ed. to correct at least some spelling errors)
[Edited on 10-28-2011 by Barry A.] |
barry:
cite one example where pure libertarian capitalism has succeeded in absence of all centralized govt control. maybe the best solution is blend of
socialism and capitalist market economy. some of the european countries have created quite nice conditions for their citizens.
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mtgoat666
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never measure success in terms of the persistence of a govt or the oligarchs.
success should be measured in terms of the success of the most disadvantaged.
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TMW
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Yea, Greece is doing very well. Italy and Spain not far behind. Ireland in the mix somewhere.
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
Yea, Greece is doing very well. Italy and Spain not far behind. Ireland in the mix somewhere. |
compare the human poverty index of spain vs USA.
spain looks like a better place relative to USA.
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Cypress
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Once more! Liberals aren't ignorant, they just believe a lot that is untrue.
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Iflyfish
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Cypress
"Once more! Liberals aren't ignorant, they just believe a lot that is untrue."
Saying that something is untrue with out offering refutation of the points in contention is simply offering an opinion. We all have opinions we can't
all have different facts.
Iflyfish
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Barry A.
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Fish said, "If this is true then the inverse is also true. You have never seen an example of a Capitalist System really working with out liberal
amounts of Socialist/Communist elements in place."
-----and there in lies the BIG problem------we (righties and lefties) define "success" differently!!!
I have been led to believe, and do believe, that the USA is the most successful Country on Earth, throughout all of history. We are a magnet, or at
least we always have been until lately. Of course no "system" is perfect, but we come the closest, so far, IMO. My family started with
nothing----just my Mom, me, and my sister-----and we ALL made it just fine, using diferent methods, but all accomplished the same relative success
utilizing all the advantages this Country gave us. In my case, I used the Stock Market.
I, and my family, have no wish to change things in this Country as it "worked" for us. It can "work" for anyone if they look around, utilize the
advantages and skills they have at their disposal, and work hard at it. It is a lot easier here in the USA to do that than in most (all?) other
Countries. As for Europe, I and my family have no wish to live in a society such as Europe---------that is scary, and so obviously unsustainable.
The Socialism that has slowly crept into our USA society WILL be our undoing, as it too is UNSUSTAINABLE.
Barry
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Cypress
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Iflyfish, Yea, the old facts vrs. opinions inigma. I operate in my reality and you operate in yours. We'll soon see who's reality is, in fact,
real.
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MitchMan
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David K and others are framing the wrong question. The issue is not whether socialism/communism is successful at being a viable economy or not, nor
is the issue whether or not one can find a socialist/communist regime that succeeded at redistribution anywhere it was tried.
The real issue is whether or not our economic system, as it has been since 1980, is untowardly biased in favor of the top in such a way that is
squeezing the middle class and increasing the ranks of the poor while the top is garnering a lopsided share of income and wealth.
Identifying the failures of our economy, fixing those failures and that lopsided bias so that the working class, the 95% of the population that does
most all the work that produces products for consumption, can earn an income that will enable them to afford and consume what they produce.
Right now, our economy, since 1980, has continually gotten worse and the result is a lopsided concentration of wealth and income at the top not seen
since the depression. That lopsidedness is what is hurting our economy, and it is what is the foundation of the current great recession the we find
ourselves in and which we exported to the rest of the world.
To approach this issue by asking "...where can you cite an example of the Socialist/Communist System really working ...?? " is taking the discussion
in the wrong direction. Whether or not one can find such an example is irrelevant. The issue is not between only two possible approaches, e.g.,
socialism/communism Vs our US market based capitalistic economy. To those of you who continually posit the contention inherent in these types of
questions that if you are unsatisfied with our current US economy, then you must be a socialist/communist, that is simply a ruse and a cheap
deflection.
The issue is, what are we going to do about the untoward bias in our economy that has led to the lopsided concentration of wealth and income at the
top and which has also led to this great recession?
The rewards at the top should be more balanced with the rewards of the rest of us. That way the working class could afford to consume what it
produces. Right now that is not the case and the whole economy is suffering. A better balance and lack of bias would be healthier for the economy,
healthier for the poeple as a whole, and would reduce the frequency and depths of the boom and bust tendency of our market economy. There are
definitely ways to have prevented the bust of 2007/8 and there are definitely ways for the dysfunctional bias in favor of the top to be corrected for
good, all within a market based capitalistic economy.
One of the obvious problems is that there is way too much money in politics which has enabled certain monied interests to have way too much influence
in government and policy. These policies have allowed the realization of moral hazards reflected in Wall Streets' behavior and which led to this
latest economic disaster which has wrecked main street and enriched Wall Street all at the expense of the working class, which, BTW, is you and me.
[Edited on 10-28-2011 by MitchMan]
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Barry A.
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Mitch said----------"The rewards at the top should be more balanced with the rewards of the rest of us. That way the working class could afford to
consume what it produces. Right now that is not the case and the whole economy is suffering. A better balance and lack of bias would be healthier for
the economy, healthier for the poeple as a whole, and would reduce the frequency and depths of the boom and best tendency of our market economy. There
are definitely ways to have prevented the bust of 2007/8 and there are definitely ways for the dysfunctional bias in favor of the top to be corrected
for good, all within a market based capitalistic economy. "
Hmmmmmmm, and I say, "ok Mitch------lay them out." So far everything I see from those who want "change" doesn't impress me as reality.
Barry
[Edited on 10-28-2011 by Barry A.]
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Cypress
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MitchMan, Our society;politically, economically, racially, religiously and by every other factor is becoming more bipolar. Our president preaches
class warfare. Both houses of Congress are disfunctional. And the Supreme Court? We can only reach for a better day. And that day will come in Nov.
2012.
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MitchMan
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Got to go for now Barry, Cypress, David K, but I am coming back with a vengeance. I look forward to answering your question Barry. Just completed 6
paragraphs and hit something on this darn laptop and lost it. Don't go away, I am coming back at you with glee. Rubbing my hands with anticipation.
MitchMan
[Edited on 10-28-2011 by MitchMan]
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
Just completed 6 paragraphs and hit something on this darn laptop and lost it. MitchMan
[Edited on 10-28-2011 by MitchMan] |
-------don't you just hate it when that happens??? Arghhhhhhhh!!!!!
OK, I am standing by. (but it's world series time, so may be some delays)
Barry
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MrBillM
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A Certainty is .....................
That NOTHING said here is going to change ANYTHING.
But, it's fun and free.
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Iflyfish
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One consequence of all of the resources accumulating at the top of a society without any way to redistribute that wealth is that it has historically
led to revolution. What you see happening on the streets is what the beginning of a revolution looks like. I am not saying that there will be a
revolution, I sincerely doubt this, however when the discontent of the people is sufficient they will demand change.
The Chinese are the oldest Capitalist economy in history, and wealth accumulated so much to the top that the people finally fomented a revolution. The
people chose Communism because it offered the common man a fairer shot at having what the wealthy had. I am not an apologist for Communism, however
many people in China were indeed better off than under Capitalism. Ditto for the Soviet Union and France.
In Russia many would like to restore Communism as their economy has been taken over by free boot Capitalists and a Cleptocracy. Many felt they were
much better off under Communist rule.
The basic flaw in Socialism and Communism, is that by providing the basic necessities for everyone the incentive for creativity and entrepreneurial
activities are stifled. Centralized planning as found in Socialist/Communist countries has proved to be inefficient and ineffective as it does not
take into considerations local realities.
The basic flaw of Capitalism is that wealth accrues to a few. If methods for redistribution
are not developed some one owns the whole monopoly board and the game is over.
These people we see in the streets right now are a very real threat to the monied class in this country. They know that they are vulnerable to the
have not’s if things don't get better. The Romans gave the people games to mollify them and keep them in line. They gave away flour and bread to ward
off revolt. These are examples of historical measures used to address issues like we are now facing.
The anger at Wall Street and the Banks and their bail out, the reality of decreasing income for the working class, coupled with high unemployment and
the loss of the American Dream of home ownership as well as disillusionment with Obama's promise to change how politics happened in this country has
mobilized the anger of a great number of people and they have taken to the streets. They have taken to the streets as both Tea Party and Occupy Wall
Street. If you look closely the complaints are very much the same. They are angry with the raw deal they have gotten from both their government and
Corporations. They are starting to see that their individual problems are part of a larger whole. We are in that process right now.
The game is rigged and people are starting to get it. They have been screwed by deregulation (supposed to protect the public against unscrupulous,
greedy interests) and by Corporations that have lowered real wages and sent their jobs overseas. They have seen Wall Street and the Banks prosper in
the crisis they created while the holders of 401 K's and mortgages got screwed. Young people graduated from college to find there were no jobs. These
are now aware that the future looks very dim indeed since Wall Street and the Banks took the money from their government bailed them out and left them
and their children to hold the bag.
There is real anger in America now and the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street are manifestations of that anger. The inchoate nature of both the Tea
Party (Government is bad, but don’t touch my Medicare or Social Security) and the various and at times inconsistent complaint of the Occupy Wall
Street folks, are simply manifestations of people taking their individual discontent to the streets.
C. Wright Mills, the father of Sociology famously said:
“Men do not usually define the troubles they endure in terms of historical change and institutional contradiction...
They do not possess the quality of mind essential to grasp the interplay of man and society, of biography and history, of self and world. They cannot
cope with their personal troubles in such ways as to control the structural transformations that usually lie behind them (Mills, 1959: 3-4).
When a society becomes industrialized, a peasant becomes a worker; a feudal lord is liquidated or becomes a businessman. When classes rise or fall, a
man is employed or unemployed; when the rate of investment goes up or down, a man takes new heart or goes broke. When wars happen, an insurance
salesman becomes a rocket launcher; a store clerk, a radar man; a wife lives alone; a child grows up without a father. Neither the life of an
individual nor the history of a society can be understood without understanding both.
Yet men do not usually define the troubles they endure in terms of historical change. . . . The well-being they enjoy, they do not usually impute to
the big ups and downs of the society in which they live. Seldom aware of the intricate connection between the patterns of their own lives and the
course of world history, ordinary men do not usually know what this connection means for the kind of men they are becoming and for the kinds of
history-making in which they might take part. They do not possess the quality of mind essential to grasp the interplay of men and society, of
biography and history, of self and world. . . “
In Mills view when personal problems become public issues then social change can occur.
In my view the single most important issue is that how government operates now is based upon Corporate agendas and the Corporations own Congress and
the media that informs us. The vote of the individual doesn’t count for that much when the elected Public Servants are beholding to the Corporations
that funded their elections and fill the war chests and their political party’s war chests. Corporate Media plays its role by becoming very wealthy as
these campaign funds are paid to them for political advertising. This is how the game is rigged.
There are very few politicians who think outside of this Corporate/Political/Media game and really address the very real structural problems that now
have a strangle hold on our political landscape and institutions. This is why a politician like Buddy Roemer is so important. He will never become
elected, however if his ideas can at least affect the debates and narrative of the next election, real change, they type Obama promised but did not
deliver, might actually happen. What if the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street collectively understood how the game is rigged and how they could change
it? That would be change we all could believe in.
Wouldn’t you want to see Obama and the Republican candidates confronted with who really owns them? Who pays their bills? Who funds them? It ain’t you
and me I can tell you that!
I would invite you to watch and listen to these interviews with the Republican Governor, 4 times Congressman who personally founded a bank worth
Billions of dollars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0avh34Drt8
Iflyfish
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Skeet/Loreto
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Fish; You want see reveloution from this bunch of Wimps.
They are already crying about the cold Weather in Denver fresseing their little Butts.
It takes People With Guts and no fear of Death to start a Revolution.
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