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AKgringo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5990
Registered: 9-20-2014
Location: Anchorage, AK (no mas!)
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EVs have been around a lot longer than I thought
About a hundred years longer! https://www.motorcities.org/story-of-the-week/2022/the-detro...
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space!
"Could do better if he tried!" Report card comments from most of my grade school teachers. Sadly, still true!
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 1485
Registered: 2-22-2020
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Thanks AKGringo:, from that link you provided:
The Detroit Electric claimed it could run up to 80 miles on a single charge and reach a speed of 25 miles per hour, making it very city-friendly. One
of its vehicles reportedly achieved 211 miles on one charge.
The popularity of electric vehicles began to wane after the invention of the electric starter by Charles Kettering made gasoline internal combustion
easier to operate and more reliable. Manufacturing advances by companies like Ford also led to lower prices for gasoline-powered cars. A 1914 Ford
Model T was priced under $500, and a comparable Detroit Electric cost four times as much. World War I between the years of 1914 and 1918 also caused
major price increases for copper and lead, key resources used in battery production, driving electric prices even higher.
After the war, Detroit Electric shifted its focus to the production of electric delivery vehicles, which were still popular after the decline of the
car business. They also continued in the production of bodies for other area automakers during the 1920s.
The Great Depression proved to be the final challenge that could not be overcome, and the last of 35,000 Detroit Electrics made was assembled in 1939.
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oxxo
Banned
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Registered: 5-17-2006
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Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  | It may be a long time before EVs get attractive as an alternative in Baja unless power supplies can be reduced in price.
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Anyone in Baja who is smart enough to purchase a BEV will be smart enough to install solar panels on their property to recharge their BEV, power their
house utilities and air conditioning, all for FREE, non-polluting, power from the ever-present sun. This is not rocket science. Screw CFE, PGE,
Edison, SDPE, etc.!
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 1485
Registered: 2-22-2020
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Well, yes, those high power costs when you hit top tier certainly encourage that especially if you have air conditioning and certainly if you have an
EV with V2L for emergency power for essential loads when CFE goes down as it does frequently in storms. It seems Baja has all the right ingredients to
do so, even without the subsidies common in the US. BYD EVs with V2L without punitive tariffs is pushing the adoption as they come in at about the
same price as a regular economy IC vehicle.
A BYD Dolphin Mini at 25000 USD in Mexico would now cost 50000 in the US thanks to tariffs to keep them out.
Similarly, the BYD Shark 4wd offered at 56,000 to compete with less capable Toyotas and Fords will now be 112,000 in the US.
[Edited on 6-20-2024 by JDCanuck]
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surabi
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4242
Registered: 5-6-2016
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| Quote: Originally posted by oxxo |
Anyone in Baja who is smart enough to purchase a BEV will be smart enough to install solar panels on their property to recharge their BEV, power their
house utilities and air conditioning, all for FREE, non-polluting, power from the ever-present sun. This is not rocket science.
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It takes more than being smart, it takes money. A whole house solar system, installed, isn't cheap. Then if you are totally off-grid and use batteries
for power storage, the batteries require maintenance. If you feed into the grid, you don't have any electricity when the CFE power goes out and the
sun isn't shining.
No system is free.
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Tioloco
Super Nomad
Posts: 2201
Registered: 7-30-2014
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| Quote: Originally posted by oxxo | | Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | It may be a long time before EVs get attractive as an alternative in Baja unless power supplies can be reduced in price.
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Anyone in Baja who is smart enough to purchase a BEV will be smart enough to install solar panels on their property to recharge their BEV, power their
house utilities and air conditioning, all for FREE, non-polluting, power from the ever-present sun. This is not rocket science. Screw CFE, PGE,
Edison, SDPE, etc.! |
So what do you do when you have rainy/cloudy weather or hardware issues with your solar? Still tell CFE to get screwed? Genuinely curious if you have
thought about your reliance on these evil doers?
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 1485
Registered: 2-22-2020
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco | | Quote: Originally posted by oxxo | | Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | It may be a long time before EVs get attractive as an alternative in Baja unless power supplies can be reduced in price.
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Anyone in Baja who is smart enough to purchase a BEV will be smart enough to install solar panels on their property to recharge their BEV, power their
house utilities and air conditioning, all for FREE, non-polluting, power from the ever-present sun. This is not rocket science. Screw CFE, PGE,
Edison, SDPE, etc.! |
So what do you do when you have rainy/cloudy weather or hardware issues with your solar? Still tell CFE to get screwed? Genuinely curious if you have
thought about your reliance on these evil doers? |
We have no CFE power to our house, only solar. For us, the cost of solar was significantly cheaper than running additional power poles and
transformers. This is why we have batteries to cover a few days of cloudy/rainy weather or some other backup. We had solar for 4 years and never had
no power. If you have a V2L EV, you can run necessary power from the batteries in it. The F-150 Lightning will run a typical US house power for 3-10
days for instance. Our neighbors stored their food in our fridge for the time CFE was down as they had no solar or backup.
As for hardware issues, I call the installer and he comes up and fixes the problem. This did happen once in 4 years due to a loose connection, but was
not disastrous.
What do you do when the power goes out for a couple weeks? Just curious...how long will your generator if you have one supply the power before you
need to get to town over the flooded roads and get more fuel, or do you have an extra large fuel tank on the property to cover that??
[Edited on 6-20-2024 by JDCanuck]
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 1485
Registered: 2-22-2020
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Solar today is really reliable. Commonly, you have 2 parallel 120v strings, each with it's own charge controller and inverter. These two 180 degrees
phase shifted 120v lines feed your house power panel, which gives you split phase 240v power or 120v from both sides of the panel, pretty much the
same as a CFE 240v supply. If one inverter went down for some disastrous reason, you would lose the 240 but would still have the 120 on one side.
Any necessary 120v power(fridges, freezers, Cpap machines) can be supplied from that side, generally through a receptacle and extension cord. You
could lose any 240v electric stove, your electric dryer, 240v ac units or your welder until you get the second string repaired.
If I was presently paying more than .20 per kwh of power and living in Baja where solar is extremely good, I would consider installing enough solar to
bring my power use down below the top unsubsidized tier. Costs are a whole lot less than they used to be, and you would not need the batteries for
backup an off grid system requires. The solar power is most available at the same time any air conditioners are drawing heavily so it seems a natural
fit. A 5kw system in Baja typically produces 25-30kwh per day, maybe only 15kwh in the coolest part of winter, when the days are shorter and AC is not
needed.
[Edited on 6-20-2024 by JDCanuck]
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Tioloco
Super Nomad
Posts: 2201
Registered: 7-30-2014
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| Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | | Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco | | Quote: Originally posted by oxxo | | Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | It may be a long time before EVs get attractive as an alternative in Baja unless power supplies can be reduced in price.
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Anyone in Baja who is smart enough to purchase a BEV will be smart enough to install solar panels on their property to recharge their BEV, power their
house utilities and air conditioning, all for FREE, non-polluting, power from the ever-present sun. This is not rocket science. Screw CFE, PGE,
Edison, SDPE, etc.! |
So what do you do when you have rainy/cloudy weather or hardware issues with your solar? Still tell CFE to get screwed? Genuinely curious if you have
thought about your reliance on these evil doers? |
We have no CFE power to our house, only solar. For us, the cost of solar was significantly cheaper than running additional power poles and
transformers. This is why we have batteries to cover a few days of cloudy/rainy weather or some other backup. We had solar for 4 years and never had
no power. If you have a V2L EV, you can run necessary power from the batteries in it. The F-150 Lightning will run a typical US house power for 3-10
days for instance. Our neighbors stored their food in our fridge for the time CFE was down as they had no solar or backup.
As for hardware issues, I call the installer and he comes up and fixes the problem. This did happen once in 4 years due to a loose connection, but was
not disastrous.
What do you do when the power goes out for a couple weeks? Just curious...how long will your generator if you have one supply the power before you
need to get to town over the flooded roads and get more fuel, or do you have an extra large fuel tank on the property to cover that??
[Edited on 6-20-2024 by JDCanuck] |
In USA on grid, I have a backup generator for emergencies to power fridge and essentials. Luckily, only needed it for 1 1/2 days about 10 years ago.
In Baja, house is total solar/batteries (off grid). Use generator to run A/C when necessary and to top off battery bank when overcast and not
producing electricity. Must be vigilant on power usage/ conservation as power is not on-grid.
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 1485
Registered: 2-22-2020
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Our area lost CFE for 2 weeks first time, just 1 week the second time in 4 years following storms. In Canada, we can lose power during ice storms
generally for 1 to 2 weeks, so small backup generators are not the best answer, especially since the fueling stations will all be down. An F-150
Lightning truck tho, or any other high capacity BEV with V2L (vehicle to load) can be used to power emergency equipment. Even just 70kwh battery
storage will go a long way during power outages. If I have my figures right, an F-150 Lightning has up to 220kwh battery storage. My house (5 bedroom)
highest power demand in the coldest part of winter drew 61kwh per day with everything running on electric. All we would need to power in an emergency
is our forced air gas furnace, our gas hot water heater and three fridges. Not a big power demand, and easily supplied from any BEV with V2L for a
very long time. Not having any power in the coldest part of winter tho would be disastrous.
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oxxo
Banned
Posts: 2347
Registered: 5-17-2006
Location: Wherever I am, I'm there
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Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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| Quote: Originally posted by surabi |
It takes more than being smart, it takes money. A whole house solar system, installed, isn't cheap. Then if you are totally off-grid and use batteries
for power storage, the batteries require maintenance. If you feed into the grid, you don't have any electricity when the CFE power goes out and the
sun isn't shining.
No system is free. |
Yes, it does take money up front to purchase a solar system and a "new" BEV car. However, the breakeven, payback, period in California is about 5
years and the cost of solar continues to plunge, while the cost of grid electricity continue to escalate. I cannot speak specifically to the
breakeven point in Mexico, but others on this thread can.
True, old technology uses lead acid batteries (or similar) for backup in Mexico which requires regular maintenance. However, new technology like the
Tesla Power Wall uses maintenance free batteries. Technology is changing in this rapidly expanding industry. And if your system is independent of
the grid and you have battery backup, you will have an independent source of personal energy even though your neighbor on CFE, is without power for
several days.
Yes, it does take an investment up front that is quickly returned in a relatively short period of time, and getting shorter. Yes, the energy produced
from the sun is FREE, but the investment to purchase the equipment is not FREE, at least initially. The question becomes how much is it worth to me,
personally, to invest in the future of our progeny. Do I want to leave the Earth a better place than I found it, at least climatically?
I grieve for those in Mexico who are currently being flooded by Hurricane Albert. Although my home in Mexico is on high ground, I will never be
flooded. But the prediction of increased hurricane intensity and frequency in my area, has motivated me to sell my place before it gets a lot worse.
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 1485
Registered: 2-22-2020
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Some people have been swapping out their old Lead Acid batteries with partially depleted EV batteries for storage if they are really trying to cut
costs. Presently available LiFePO4 batteries are more stable, last longer (6000 90% discharges) and require zero maintenance other than the programs
built into the charge controllers to extend their lives to the maximum. They will cost far less over the next 10 years of use than Lead acid and still
be going strong for the next 8.
If you are investing in solar storage batteries checking out the specs against pricing before you buy is well worth it.
If you are into DIY this guy on Youtube has been putting out multiple explanatory DIY system designs using any number of different components. Here's
one that was relatively cheap, easy to install and would handle a single AC unit or a limited number of appliances. The LiFePO4 battery shown in this
video is quite similar to mine, only where it has 1 I had 10 installed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adFGmOlDM-Y
As I preferred to have a very robust well designed system I didn't have to worry about, I paid slightly more for a good installer to design and
install the whole system to match my anticipated needs and allow for easy expansion in the future.
[Edited on 6-20-2024 by JDCanuck]
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 1485
Registered: 2-22-2020
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What most people are unaware of is there are differences in Lithium Ion (most EV batteries) and the newer far more robust and safer LiFePO4 batteries.
The LiFePO4 have come way down in price and will handle far more 90% discharge cycles. Here is a brief comparison:
https://www.anker.com/blogs/others/lifepo4-vs-lithium-ion
Even among LiFePO4 batteries there has developed a huge difference in ones supplied by different manufacturers. Lower quality ones are rated for 3000
cycles, while the newer higher quality ones exceed 6000 cycles. That's a difference between about 9 years and 18 years. Oddly there is very little
difference in cost...get the 6000 cycle plus ones.
A more detailed explanation of why LiFePO4 became the better choice for stationary storage and even now in EV's is available here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery
[Edited on 6-21-2024 by JDCanuck]
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oxxo
Banned
Posts: 2347
Registered: 5-17-2006
Location: Wherever I am, I'm there
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Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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And JD, this is only the tip of the iceberg! There are even newer technologies that will far exceed what we consider today as "advanced technology."
Regardless of whether anyone thinks climate change is man made or just a normal variation of Earth's cycles, Solar dependence as a free source of
power in the future, will be the energy format for the foreseeable future. Those that want to cling to their outmoded, petroleum based dependence,
because change is so scary to them  , will be dragged along, kicking and
screaming in protest, as they are brought into the future.
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 1485
Registered: 2-22-2020
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If you read that LiFePO4 article at Wikipedia you will note the other pollution causing rare earth elements that existed in previous lithium ion
batteries have been reduced or eliminated which is one of the major drives behind new battery tech. The Lithium itself has not, so we look forward to
new battery tech that deals with that issue as well. Since these batteries are 95% recyclable at present, we have at least dealt with that issue. I am
not sure where the new solid state batteries are going but it really wont be that long before LiFePO4 goes the way of NICad. So far the reductions in
actual lithium mining needs have been accomplished by making them last longer (500 cycles to up to 10000 cycles) and finding ways to reuse or recycle
them. Effectively, this means the amount of lithium needed to be mined to store and release a fixed amount of energy has been reduced by a factor of
20 before recycling the contained lithium. Presently, the amount of lithium by weight in any lithium battery is approximately 7%. Solid States are
expected to handle far more cycles and again double the capacity from present Lithium Ion chemistries. The remaining question is WHO will be
responsible for the recycling at life end.
[Edited on 6-21-2024 by JDCanuck]
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oxxo
Banned
Posts: 2347
Registered: 5-17-2006
Location: Wherever I am, I'm there
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Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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@Lencho is correct about Lithium (which was an improvement over lead acid batteries) but it was an interim and necessary step. As JD says above, the
future of batteries is in Solid State which is a big improvement in all aspects of battery production. Solid State will be the pro-forma
configuration in batteries until a newer and more advanced technology is discovered and developed.
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 1485
Registered: 2-22-2020
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| Quote: Originally posted by oxxo | | @Lencho is correct about Lithium (which was an improvement over lead acid batteries) but it was an interim and necessary step. As JD says above, the
future of batteries is in Solid State which is a big improvement in all aspects of battery production. Solid State will be the pro-forma
configuration in batteries until a newer and more advanced technology is discovered and developed. |
If you look at the configuration of the Lithium modules used in EV's you will see each module is comprised of multiple small cells all linked together
to form each module. The modules are then combined to make the battery pack that is installed in the EV.
I have seen video of an enterprising person who purchased a used battery pack, traced down the poor module and replaced it to bring the pack back up
to original specs. He then installed this cheap pack in an older used Leaf to upgrade the pack to 62 kwh from the original much smaller pack it was
initially sold with. A lot of work on his part, but i have to admire his willingness to keep another car out of the wreckers and on the road with
enhanced capabilities.
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5896
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Update: maybe this is already known, but I noticed there is a Tesla charger at los Vientos Hotel in Bay of LA (Bahia de Los Angeles). For future
reference.
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oxxo
Banned
Posts: 2347
Registered: 5-17-2006
Location: Wherever I am, I'm there
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Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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| Quote: Originally posted by Ateo | | Update: maybe this is already known, but I noticed there is a Tesla charger at los Vientos Hotel in Bay of LA (Bahia de Los Angeles). For future
reference. |
Thank you @Ateo, that is helpful but just for clarity, there is currently only one Tesla branded, Level 3 Supercharger location in Baja and that is in
Ensenda. The charger in BOLA would be a level 2, Tesla compatible, destination charger, similar to what I have in my garage, requiring about 8
hours for a full charge.
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
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This is for SF&H based on a previous post from them asking how you check an EV battery condition when you buy used. I have discovered there is a
meter on the display of the screen that shows the approximate battery condition on leafs.(not the battery state of charge as i had assumed earlier).
In addition to this years ago users developed a cheap reader that you plug into the diagnostic port and it gives you a more accurate read out. Repair
shops have readers that will check the full battery module by module and show if one module has developed a problem and can swap it out and reinstall
the battery within a day, or if you really want it, replace the whole battery very easily. The motors of course will last a couple decades at least.
Ours shows over 90% left after 45,000 miles and 5 years since manufacture date and for some unknown reason is improving since we bought. We purchased
for 40% of the price of a new Tesla model 3, or 50% of the price of a new Leaf in our area including taxes, dealer fees and rebates. We still have 3
years of battery warranty left at that age.
If I was buying a very safe, reliable car for my daughter while she attended university this would be my choice for sure, mainly because of the safety
features. Sudden breakdowns are almost unheard of in Leafs built from as early as 2011, so the repair history is well documented. Battery degradation
stress seems to be unjustified. Yes, they do degrade over a long period of time, but the savings in fuel costs and maintenance expenses more than
compensates and repairs to faulty modules are both easy and inexpensive. The optimal Leaf would be a 2020 62kwh battery one, even degraded by 10% at 5
years of age, especially if you can get one for under 15,000 as we did.
[Edited on 6-21-2024 by JDCanuck]
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