OK...Gnu, you put up a video of some big lipped Iraqi copess talking crap. BFD
What I'm sayin is, if I were a cop and you or anyone else shoved a camera in my face, I'd take it away and beat you half to death with it.
I'm also saying you can have all the film you want, but it does no good without objective eyes to review it.
Doncha effing get it? Gawwwdammmm....I know you do.
Quote:
You might be surprised but these videos are absolutely passed around the Minesterial Publico and tagged with the office and the names and do have
significant impact on defeating corruption.
This is pure fantasy, or worse. What they do is, one...entertain..and two... instruct stealth. "Watch for recorders and don't get caught on tape."
Do you truly believe a ************ video, an indescretion by the accused for it's existance, will be an indictment against anybody within a system
which is repressive by design and motivated by revenge and payback?
Originally posted by shari
hey D...pa la soda or para la soda means ....for a soda...it is a very very common expression in these parts meaning a small gratuity so the person
can go get a soda.
Thanks, Shari....I do the same, almost, but I like to say, "Por una cerveza" or Media cerveza....whatever the amount calls for.
We're all in the same boat here, I think.
Thanks again for the enlightenment.
I was visualizing as you drive through town just hold your phone or camera up like a gawking tourista and film as you drive...then if by chance you
might need it to get out of a false accusation....well....cool.
I agree it might not be a good plan to stick a camera in a cops face...but maybe you could ask if you could take his picture...hahaha...might get you
out of a ticket....er...mordida.
Originally posted by DENNIS
OK...Gnu, you put up a video of some big lipped Iraqi copess talking crap. BFD
What I'm sayin is, if I were a cop and you or anyone else shoved a camera in my face, I'd take it away and beat you half to death with it.
I'm also saying you can have all the film you want, but it does no good without objective eyes to review it.
Doncha effing get it? Gawwwdammmm....I know you do.
Quote:
You might be surprised but these videos are absolutely passed around the Minesterial Publico and tagged with the office and the names and do have
significant impact on defeating corruption.
This is pure fantasy, or worse. What they do is, one...entertain..and two... instruct stealth. "Watch for recorders and don't get caught on tape."
Do you truly believe a *********** video, an indescretion by the accused for it's existance, will be an indictment against anybody within a system
which is repressive by design and motivated by revenge and payback?
NO
This may be another south versus north thing...
I know you hate to hear this, but we take video of cops treating us unfairly, we demand a ticket and we take the tickets and we bring them directly to
the judge at the centro de transito where they review any evidence you have immediately and the the cases are dismissed and there is an order written
for the offending to MP to answer to as well a federal order can be written. To me, that is all I want, the case dismissed and the officer to know
that the system has documented it.
My personal experience is that when we catch them in the act and fight it, we win, and they never return to that spot again and when they see our car
at later moments they turn away. Keep in mind when a cop behaving very badly, they know they are doing it and they do not hold it against people for
standing up for themselves. There has not been any evidence of retaliation when we defend ourselves, just the opposite, we get respect which is better
than being pegged as an easy mark.
Originally posted by shari
I agree it might not be a good plan to stick a camera in a cops face...but maybe you could ask if you could take his picture...hahaha...might get you
out of a ticket....er...mordida.
Claro que sí. If you wear your Sindicatúra ball cap backwards....be sure and turn it around so he can see it.
You can't beat these guys. Only pressure from the business community can stop this.
I'll say it again and again and again ............ad infinitum.
Okay... I wasnt meaning put the camera in your face type of thing. LOL I meant start recording like tourist kinda but not so obvious. And ya I
would be that kind of person that is talking much back at the station wanting to throw it in the officers face as my husband is poking at me to be
quite and let him handle it! LOL Didnt think of the U-tube thing... so I can look like I knew what I was talking about... yea and I'll put it on
U-tube too!
?"Por una cerveza or e soda"? I am so gringa... LOL
My personal experience is that when we catch them in the act and fight it, we win, and they never return to that spot again and when they see our car
at later moments they turn away. Keep in mind when a cop behaving very badly, they know they are doing it and they do not hold it against people for
standing up for themselves. There has not been any evidence of retaliation when we defend ourselves, just the opposite, we get respect which is better
than being pegged as an easy mark.
Good things do happen.
I guess they do when the game is defined,
You seem to have a network of participants in your game, Gnu. There are a lot of "WEs" in your narrative.
You are also in your neighborhood and have developed raport with your law enforcers.
People running the gauntlet in CC don't have that advantage....your mutual respect with your friendly enemy. They are at the mercy of predators who
thrive on weakness and opportunity.
You are on a base of mutual respect with your adversary.
The travelor through CC is not.
The new guy (whose name I did not get...sorry) was not in the office, he was in Cabo, possibly back in his La Paz office Wed-Thurs.
In his absence, I spoke with a 29-year employee....29 years on the job there, not 29-years old! I gave him this website address & the thread name
& asked him to please give it to the new head honcho when he returns from Cabo.
I asked what, if anything, could be done about the police harassment & extortion in Constitucion. Following is the information I was given:
"Each police station has a Juridico (legal area) within the PD. That individual is an abagado of the traffic department & part of his role is
to help people in case of abuse by a policeman. They will not accept phone calls, letters or e-mails after the fact, they will only act on
face-to-face interview basis.
If you can get a name/badge/vehicle # or plate, a physical description of the offending officer(s), the date, time & specific location of the
incident, take it to the PD & ask for the Juridico. Supposedly they will write up an official complaint, call the officer(s) into the PD, have
you verify this is indeed the correct individual(s), make him empty his pockets out & if you gave him a USD $20 with a red dot on Andrew Jackson's
nose or a hundred folded into a origami bird & that bill comes out of his pocket, the officer is fired on the spot."
Unfortunately, no mention was made of legal action taken against the officer(s) & since I was told your money would be immediately returned, you'd
in essence be "pocketing the evidence", I doubt that the officer(s) will be held long enough for you to get the hell outta Dodge!
I personally have a HUGE problem with this scenario!! For starters, all the officer has to do is leave the $$ in his car, with a partner; or if
there's truly no honor among thieves, stash it under a convenient rock to be retrieved later; drop it off at home on his way into the station....the
possibilities are endless! My greater concern is placing the accused & the accuser in a potentially volatile face-to-face situation. The risk is
simply more than I'd be willing to take for fear of personal retribution. You just got the guy fired....how the hell do you think he's going to react
if he sees you on the street 10 minutes or 10 days from now? I'd fear retribution from his buddies on the force as well. This is not a route I'd
personally feel comfortable taking, especially if it was in my home territory where the chances were good that our paths would cross again!
Ditto for written complaints registered with Tourista Department; they carry NO weight, so an e-mail campaign is going to net you
diddly squat, least of all the positive results hoped for. Their policy is to only act on a warm body standing in their office or on their desk
registering an official detailed complaint in person.
IMO, there is a slight chance that an e-mail blizzard MIGHT possibly gain enough attention for someone somewhere to look into the
allegations, but from everything I heard today, it'd be on par with a snowball's chance in hell. Maybe anything sent to a PD should be sent attn:
Juridico.
And yes, I did point out the obvious that this activity in Constitucion affects all points south on the Peninsula, for all vehicular tourism....not
just Constitucion! He acknowledged it's an unacceptable situation.
I personally would neither photograph nor take a video of anyone wearing a gun....especially in the midst of an extortion attempt! Give me a ticket
if I'm caught dead-to-rights & I'll go straight to the PD & pay it....or "Let's go to the station" if it's a bogus stop.
I was also advised that PD's are supposed to be manned & open 24x7, so don't be falling for the PD is closed right now
garbage.
It sounds like the best bet is to gain a new best friend....the Juridicio at the PD in whatever town you happen to get stopped by an armed
extortionist!
when I say we I meant my GF and our friends we taught how to fight tickets, if you have photo and video evidence it is admissiable and those Mexican
guys at trasito offices love to look at it and laugh and dismiss cases. It does have long lasting affects when you do, the corruptos have to move on
to another neighborhood.
Everyone must decide for themselves how to handle these circumstances. Hopefully a few anecdotes are helpful to allow others to see there are many
ways to defuse these situations, while being totally polite, calm, friendly and stick to the law. I think its important to see the corruptos are NOT
horrible evil people, but instead realize that are convinced that gringos have money that grows on trees, they have found gringos easy targets for
lots of dough-notice a typcial mordida for a Mexican is 20 pesos while gringos always reach for a 500 note, so as long as that reputation persists the
problem will continue.
The moment our BN reputation is one of being informed, calm, truthful and extremely well documented the problem will be reduced dramtically.
I reiterate, always introduce yourself right away to a cop and ask the officer to identify themselves immediately. Officers must identify themselves
as required by the constitution. Always be polite and not contradictory. A failure for police to identify themselves is a crime and immediately will
establish they are corrupt while you have done nothing to provoke them or be impolite, it simply establishes that at the beginning of the stop they
broke the law.
Its very easy to make up ideas about how these guys are going to beat you or something but that doesn't happen typically in mexican traffic stops like
it so often does in US traffic taser incidents. That might occur in drunken brawls but rarely if ever in a Mexican traffic stop and certainly not for
politely asking questions and insisting on a ticket politely while taking video which is totally legal in public in all countries of the North
American Community.
Originally posted by DENNIS
Bad idea, Lee, .....unless the cameras are well hidden.
I recognize that sticking a video cam in a cops face is not a good idea. I wasn't even thinking of using one after being stopped. Just video
taping going through town, stopping at all signs/lights, etc.
It wouldn't be of much use as evidence outside of negotiating directly with the cop having stopped you.
So, although a video cam doesn't appeal to me personally, a regular camera does -- and I"ll have it on me when I get out to chat with any cop stopping
me.
On all the other points, Dennis, we're in agreement.
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
Originally posted by gnukid
I reiterate, always introduce yourself right away to a cop and ask the officer to identify themselves immediately. Officers must identify themselves
as required by the constitution. Always be polite and not contradictory. A failure for police to identify themselves is a crime and immediately will
establish they are corrupt while you have done nothing to provoke them or be impolite, it simply establishes that at the beginning of the stop they
broke the law.
You need to know how to do the dance.
I'd add that it's better to get out of your car and talk face to face with any cop. Do not sit in your car waiting for them to approach you.
This pretty much sums it up.
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
well thought out, makes alot of sense, you have alot more experience than I do in this matters.
but it really doesn't address unformed travelers that do not read this forum, some thing needs to be done,, this is not acceptable for any one other
than the police and the politicians in CC. that are complacent to this extortion
have any of you heard of Sindictura? i have sent e-mails to these folkks but haven't received a response. it seems like a great idea but who knows??
i too have been a victim of the Constitution shake down but told them to F--- off. Check out their website ******************************
Originally posted by texascarwasher
have any of you heard of Sindictura? i have sent e-mails to these folkks but haven't received a response. it seems like a great idea but who knows??
i too have been a victim of the Constitution shake down but told them to F--- off. Check out their website ******************************
Each region of the law enforcement is separate in Mexico, with very little inter-departmental communication. Consider them separate. In La Paz there
are so many divergent agencies out and about its unbelievable.
To clarify, you can submit a report to the abogado at the transit office immediately to state a case of corruption while noting all relevant facts.
You can also refer to video and photos, though perhaps it is not submissable at that time since there is no method for storage of this evidence, they
will be reviewed on site and can referenced on the internet on youtube for example and they will have an affect when they demonstrate you to be
correct and the officer identified to be clearly corrupt.
Again, to each his own, as some people have explained after a while it becomes fun to encounter a totally corrupt cop and watch how things quickly
turn when you calmly ask them to explain their preposterous case to you. They always fold when you remain confident, calm, polite, and truthful.
Our goal is to establish that tourists are knowledgeable, technically well equipped with sophisticated tools to document our adventures, able to
defend our-selves legally and not easy mordida targets. Try it-but always be polite and understanding that these cops are people too with their own
problems and reasons to justify corruption in their mind from ultra wealthy passerbys.
Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
My greater concern is placing the accused & the accuser in a potentially volatile face-to-face situation. The risk is simply more than I'd be
willing to take for fear of personal retribution. You just got the guy fired....how the hell do you think he's going to react if he sees you on the
street 10 minutes or 10 days from now?
Legit concerns, *****, although I doubt your evidence and testimonial will get him fired.
He, and his officer brothers, will never forget your efforts to ruin him and your future in your community will be dismal and unprotected.
Quote:
IMO, there is a slight chance that an e-mail blizzard MIGHT possibly gain enough attention for someone somewhere to look into the
allegations, but from everything I heard today, it'd be on par with a snowball's chance in hell.
Pure joke.
Quote:
And yes, I did point out the obvious that this activity in Constitucion affects all points south on the Peninsula, for all vehicular tourism....not
just Constitucion!
That is the Rosetta Stone for solving this problem. Involve the businesses and point out their losses.
Originally posted by desertcpl
well thought out, makes alot of sense, you have alot more experience than I do in this matters.
but it really doesn't address unformed travelers that do not read this forum, some thing needs to be done,, this is not acceptable for any one other
than the police and the politicians in CC. that are complacent to this extortion
Actually, I've never been stopped in Constitucion, but then I haven't driven north for 6-7 years. Prior to that maybe 12-15 trips both directions
over the years. I believe this problem has escalated in the fairly recent past. I would hope if enough people do make an effort to follow "official
complaint procedures" the Juridico guys would get tired of dealing with a constant parade of gringos in their office, the entire police force would
eventually turn over (if they do indeed fire these guys) & the word would get out, making driving through Constitucion better for all whether they
read Baja Nomad or not....well, except for the underpaid cops!
Extortion is extortion....whether it's $20 pesos or $500. They still win the game even if you play it cute & tell them it's for soda or cerveza.
When their actions stop benefiting them, then it'll have to stop.... or
escalate to armed robbery or violence.
I have briefly read the thread and appreciate all of the good thinking and efforts that people have made regarding the extortion in Ciudad
Constitution.
I have a ton to do unpacking etc. but will get back to this tomorrow. I have not yet had my letter translated, but it is in the works. I have quoted
many examples of people being shaken down in CC and have included them in my letter. I will add those I have found in the most recent posts.
Again my goal is for us to generate ideas and to take actions that MIGHT impact this situation that affects ALL US CITIZENS traveling on the ONLY
FEDERAL HIGHWAY connecting Baja N and Baja S. We must all protect our own personal safety and I well know that graft and corruption is endemic in
Mexico, it is more hidden but certainly exists in the USofA. We are still puking oil into the Gulf due to corrupt practices.
I appreciate those who have connections using them. I appreciate people talking about this, creating a buzz. There are excellent recommendations here
as to how to deal directly with this when it occurs. This is very useful and helpful information. I particularly appreciate the advice to stay calm
and clear, get name, badge number etc. and ask for the ticket and go to the PD and pay there. There does seem to be some consensus about this way of
addressing the issue on a personal level.
It also appears that IF there is to be an impact on this issue on a macro level it will need to come from local business people and "from above". This
is where personal connections MAY be important, it is often who you know that counts in a system like this. Creating public awareness does no harm and
may do some good. You make news when you shed light on the problem. Shed light.
I will add to the list of contact people those mentioned since my last post and will include the stories of extortion as well.
I appreciate all of the thought that is going into this and the actions that people are taking to address this. There is excellent information in this
thread and I am glad that it is still alive and others are doing something about this.
Originally posted by desertcpl
that is really so funny more BS mordida. give me a break who in their right mind would go for that,
I don't know................I've laughed at this Sindicatura joke for a while. There are some here who swear by it....for no real reason. Not one of
them can relate a positive result from a report to the agency.
I see it as the Suggestion Box in the cartoons that is right above a trash can.
Anyone who falls for this scam has no buisness being on the road down here.
"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen.
The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back
if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Theodore Roosevelt
"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes
"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others
cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn
"The best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer." - Cunningham's Law
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or
escalate to armed robbery or violence.