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David K
Honored Nomad
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Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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gee, sorry I was wrong... the top 1% don't pay 40% of all America's taxes... just 36.73%!!! 
excuuuuse me for rounding up! 
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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Fish---to carry on with my rant--------if the top 50% are paying most of the taxes, how is it that you think that they are "not paying their fair
share"??? Seems to me that they ARE paying for the infrastructure they use "to get rich", and then some. !?!?!?!?!?
Barry
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
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Location: Redding, Northern CA
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MitchMan-------
My Gawd, Mitch, what you are talking about is in reality SOCIALISM. And you think we in this Nation can make that work out???? It never has any
place else, and no Country can afford it even if it would work, and personally I don't want to live in a SOCIALIST society, period!!!
Again, I am with David K on this one!!! (I am astounded at what I hear from you, and it IS revealing)
Barry
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jakecard
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Posts: 141
Registered: 7-13-2011
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On illegal immigration nothing distinguishes Buddy Roemer from the majority of his Republican colleagues. Roemer is in favor of sealing the border and
he opposes amnesty:
http://www.issues2000.org/2012/Buddy_Roemer_Immigration.htm
Latinos on the other hand have mixed views on what to do about illegal immigrants, although an overwhelming majority (81%) oppose wholesale
deportation:
http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=128
(And just as an aside, if you think Buddy Roemer is any different from other politicians who want to legislate marriage, then please look again.)
Jake
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1855
Registered: 3-9-2009
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yes, Barry, the top 50% pay all the income taxes. The economy is skewed to wildly over reward those at the very top and under reward the bottom 60%
for sure and most of the bottom 80%. In such a skewed economy, it only makes sense to tax those at the top more. I mean, it makes numbers sense.
When you take into account the actual similar (linear) consumption capacity of humans and the disparity of incomes, the reasonable mind has to take
pause. The bottom 80% are not getting their just compensation/income commensurate with their contribution to production to the point that the bottom
60%, 50% for sure, cannot afford to buy necessities and that the wealth that they produced is disproportionately finding its way to the top where they
cannot consume it all and, since these at the top are successful at using more of the economy's and country's resources and getting so much income out
of the economy that they cannot use it all, this excess should be taxed at a higher rate.
They are successful at using the economy more and getting more money out of it, so much money that they have an excess they cannot consume. That
would be fine if they weren't getting much of their excess from the bottom 80% that actually created the wealth with their own hands and minds. But,
that's where it is coming from. GDP and already created wealth and income are zero-sum games.
I am for a more balanced economy, that is not what we have right now. In fact, were are the second worst offenders of disparity of wealth in the
world, worse than corrupt Mexico. That aught to give you some pause. Hopefully.
I think that the fact that the top 1% pay 40% of the taxes but that they have 40% of the nation's wealth and the fact that the top 10% pay 70% of the
taxes while they have 71% of the nation's wealth is getting close to a numeric match up should make you feel better. But, keep in mind, that the
wealth that the top 1% and 10% have, much of it is excess wealth that they cannot consume after paying for a very, very fat lifestyle. The bottom 40%
have NO NETWORTH at all and the bottom 60% have only 4% after living a meager and often lower than bare subsistance life style! You want to tax them?
What's the matter with you?
[Edited on 10-29-2011 by MitchMan]
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MitchMan
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Posts: 1855
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False claim, Barry. False claim. Not in any way calling for or promoting a socialist economy. You need to look up socialism in detail. Look up
formal economics of a market society as well so that you can speak intelligently about your accusation. Then, come back and prove, point by point
your contention that I am talking about "Socialism". Read very carefully,
When you make accusations like that, the burden of proof is in your court. I am asking you to live up to fair play responsibility. You make an
accusation, prove or retract. To do otherwise would be wreckless, careless, shows a lack of integrity, and is irresponsible. If you fail to meet
your responsibility and cop out, well, that would be very revealing about you, Barry. Don't disappoint.
[Edited on 10-29-2011 by MitchMan]
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Cypress
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Location: on the bayou
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Socialism is a losing proposition. Has never worked. It's the rich against the poor game. Anybody that has more than me is rich. I'm due some of
your's, and the govt. is gonna help me get it. Next thing you know the mob will be chasing folks that have managed their finances down the street.
Might even be similar to the end of Kaddafy.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 9-2-2003
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Gentlemen and Scholars and you too Mitch!
It is not the"Who Pays Taxes bunch" but Where do those Taxes go and who has the Control.
THE PEOPLE OR THE GOVT ?
The People of this Great County have become so Greedy that they have lost the ability to use the Election Process to change things in the Govt.They
become more and more depend on Govt Programs to take care pf all their needs.
the 911 Emergency, the So called School consulars, Emergency Services, and many others.
We must start thinking and acting in a Positive Manner and start changing our local Congressmen. It can be done!!!
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1855
Registered: 3-9-2009
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Socialism is an economic system. Not talking about that, not supporting it, never have, not here, not anywhere. But, Cypress and Barry, you are
barking up the wrong tree, and jumping to an unsupported conclusion about what was written here. Please, read more carefully.
Wow, Skeet, I agree with every single word you just wrote. Government, actually, politics has to be revised here. Simply stated, and everything that
I have written in this thread would be remedied by getting money out of politics. Period.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
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MitchMan, Barking up the wrong tree? Which tree?
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17649
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
The top 1% also pay 40% of the taxes!
50% of Americans now pay NO federal taxes!!
A flat tax is the most fair as everyone pays the same rate... make more money, pay more taxes, make less then pay less.
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not true, dk. not fair. you are a good example. you don't make much money as a sprinkler guy, and under flat tax of cain, you would pay
9% fed income tax
17% sales tax (9% fed + 8% state)
10% state income tax
1.5% property tax
at the end of the day, you, DK, would be paying much higher proportion of your income to taxes than "rich" people.
flat taxes result in poor paying highest percentage of their income as taxes, because they use a higher proportion of their income to buy basic items
like food, clothes, etc.
if rich people try to sell you on flat income and sales tax with no cap gains tax, you poor and middle class are suckers to accept it.
the current progressive tax system is actually working pretty well. dk, why do you personally want to pay higher taxes??????????
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
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Location: on the bayou
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mtgoat666,You're a tax expert? Who would've thunk it?
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Fish---to carry on with my rant--------if the top 50% are paying most of the taxes, how is it that you think that they are "not paying their fair
share"??? Seems to me that they ARE paying for the infrastructure they use "to get rich", and then some. !?!?!?!?!?
Barry |
You are correct in your refutation of my interpretation of the statistics. My error.
I think that MitchMan much better addressed this issue than my post did.
I appreciate your correction of my post.
Iflyfish
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
Socialism is an economic system. Not talking about that, not supporting it, never have, not here, not anywhere. But, Cypress and Barry, you are
barking up the wrong tree, and jumping to an unsupported conclusion about what was written here. Please, read more carefully.
Wow, Skeet, I agree with every single word you just wrote. Government, actually, politics has to be revised here. Simply stated, and everything that
I have written in this thread would be remedied by getting money out of politics. Period. |
I agree with Skeet (as usual) too.
MitchMan--------ok, I very rapidly searched "Socialism", "Zero-sum game", and "formal economics of a market society"------could not find anything on
"formal econ. of a market society", but lots on the other two.
Yeah, right----like I am going to understand all that????
The most cogent of the look-ups was the one on Socialism, and I concluded that much falls under the heading "Socialism", but the common theme to me
was "state controlled", like, the Government. What you described above, like I said previously, sounds like Socialism, walks like Socialism, and
talks like Socialism--------thus I concluded it WAS SOCIALISM. (duh)
I want no part of that. My wife and I go to a lot of garage sales----we buy things that we resell on the internet for markups of like 300% to 1000%,
and my wife makes a respectable amount of money from that----------are we cheating those that we buy from??? I get the impression from you that we
may be. I don't think so------the person at the garage sale gets what they want and expect, and we get what we want and expect------ that is
certainly not equal but we both are happy. Now if somebody came along (a lefty, for instance) and told that garage sale person what we sold the stuff
for, well they would be REALLY upset (why, I don't know, but they would)---we both got what we wanted and expected so nobody would be upset, but now
that the lefty has stirred up a hornets nest, NOW people are upset. 
That's how business works, much of the time. Nobody (the 'seller' or the 'buyer') in their right mind would expect the transaction to be equal
monetarily, or they would never make or propose the transaction in the first place, would they??
TAXES: I want everybody to be involved in paying taxes so that they have a stake in this Country, and will pay more attention, and VOTE, and because
it seems "fair" to me. And if THAT costs me a little more in taxes, then so be it. I much prefer the Steve Forbes FLAT TAX concept (and always
have), but was very excited that Herman Cain introduced his "999 plan" to begin the discussion and start the process for totally changing the present
tax system. Hopefully that happens. I dislike the very idea of a "progressive tax system" as it is creeping socialism, to me anyway, and unfair, and
counter to human nature, and I have long seen that as a route to the ruin of any society, for all the reasons stated ad infinidum by the Right..
(man, that 'economics theory' stuff is exhausting to read and try to comprehend--------I have always been 'mathamatically challenged')
It is so easy to make money the old fashion way, and WISELY AND UNEMOTIONALLY invest it in the Stock Market and live the good life later on-----you
know, the AMERICAN DREAM, and all that!?!?!?!? Lots of ways to get there, but I chose this way.
Barry
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Statistics? I'll just settle for facts!!!
Barry |
You are correct in your refutation of my interpretation of the statistics.
Iflyfish |
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Statistics? I'll just settle for facts!!!
Barry |
You are correct in your refutation of my interpretation of the statistics.
Iflyfish |
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Cypress--------I don't recall that as a "quote" of mine in this context????? There must be some mistake------------?????
Barry
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Barry A.
Fellow Nomads
You seem to forget that there is no pure Socialist, Communist or Capitalist State. All economies are mixed economies; the issue is how these systems
are integrated.
You may want more of one and less of the other but all economies contain elements of Socialism and Capitalism.
In a pure Capitalist state there would be no public roads, public sewers, public water systems, public fire departments, public libraries, public
police, public military etc. These enterprises would all be private. I very much doubt that any on this board would want to live in such a system.
Iflyfish
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Barry A, Your's or mine?
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
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Location: on the bayou
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Iflyfish, Right! We're to thank socialism for the good things of modern society. And all the bad aspects? We'll just blame the capitalists. Life
isn't that simple. But far too many people are.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Statistics? I'll just settle for facts!!!
Barry |
You are correct in your refutation of my interpretation of the statistics.
Iflyfish |
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Cypress--------I don't recall that as a "quote" of mine in this context????? There must be some mistake------------?????
Barry |
I appreciate your clarification of this. We don't need straw men to burn in this particular discussion, which is complicated enough. I try to take
responsibility for my errors in thinking and reporting of facts. I would hope that others would do the same.
Iflyfish
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