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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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Barry, My apologies. You and Iflyfish can now make nicee-nicee.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Barry, My apologies. You and Iflyfish can now make nicee-nicee.
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Thanks, Cypress-----------sure beats yelling, and calling each other idiots, at least it does in my book. ( "nicee-nicee"??????  )
Barry
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Iflyfish, Right! We're to thank socialism for the good things of modern society. And all the bad aspects? We'll just blame the capitalists. Life
isn't that simple. But far too many people are. |
So then you do understand that our system is a mixed system with Socialist and Capitalist components. I appreciate your acknowledging this fact.
I would invite you to find any quote of mine on any post I have ever made on Baja Nomads where I say that Socialism is responsible for the good things
of modern society. And all the bad aspects.
I have stated and will state again that the inherant flaw of Socialism is that it that it saps generativity and creativity. I have further stated that
central planning has been demonstrated to not be an effective way of managing production.
I have also stated that the inherant flaw of Capitalism is that wealth accrues to the few and can lead to revolution when the under class is not able
to afford the goods and services they require. The danger of an imbalanced Capitalist system is revolution i.e. the French, Chinese and the Soviet
revolutions. Before all of these revolutions wealth had accumulated at the top and the poor rose up against the inequality.
You and I grew up in a time of peace and prosperity after WWII that was unprecidented in history. The economic engines of production of our chief
economic rivals, Germany and Japan, lay in rubble leaving America without an ecomomic or productive rival. This produced the greatest period of
economic growth in the history of the US. Returning soldiers needed homes, washer/dryers, cars and all of those things that went with being middle
class. Trade Unions bargained for a living wage for workers and a solid middle class emerged. We ate the heart of the water melon.
Unfortunately the situation today is much different. China and India now are the hubs of production as their populations gain employement and in turn
require the material goods that we did after WWII. The USofA is in decline relative to these countries and their economies. A new reality faces us, or
rather faces the next generation. I have mine as do you but alas the prime affect will be on the next generation.
Over the past 30 years we have engaged in three primary wars; Viet Nam, Iraq I, Iraq II and Afghanistan.
I lived through Viet Nam and served my country as a Conscientious Objector. What I saw happen as a result of that war was that it now requires two
parents to work in order to support a family. In the day of our greatest prosperity one working parent could support a family.
The cost of the Iraq wars and Afghanistan war have been "off the books" so the real cost has been hidden. It will be our children and grandchildren
who will be forced to pay for these misadventures. I believe that combined with the pillage of our economy by the Banks and Wall Street that the
people now on the streets are seeing what their lives will be like if things continue as they go. Personaly I don't know if we can pull out of this
with a middle class intact.
I travel a lot in Mexico and have done so for the past 50 years and see how the USofA can easily look like Mexico does with its very wealthy and very
poor. However I do see in my latest travels to both the mainland and Baja that there is a growing prosperity and the emergance of a middle class. Good
for Mexico.
Iflyfish
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Socialism is a losing proposition. Has never worked. It's the rich against the poor game. Anybody that has more than me is rich. I'm due some of
your's, and the govt. is gonna help me get it. Next thing you know the mob will be chasing folks that have managed their finances down the street.
Might even be similar to the end of Kaddafy. |
What tree? Are you kidding? Your post addresses Socialism. Not talking about socialism, not proposing socialism as a remedy to our current screwed
up,right wing hijacked economy. That tree. Your positing an argument against socialism as your response to certain posts in this thread,
specifically my post since you repeated my use of the word "tree". Aren't you paying attention?
You go on to state "it's a rich against the poor game". Never advocated pitting anybody against anybody. My message is that the structure and
outcome of our economic system dsyfunctionally over rewards the rich at the expense of the working class and the economic health itself. You
obviously suffer from some imagined persecution complex. Your inferences that what is written is an advocation of pitting one class against the other
is a product of your own imagination, off-track logic and inability to read carefully. To reiterate in hopes that you will finally get it, the
problem is that the economy is structured and skewed to benefit the few at the top at the expense of the working class (the rest of the population,
the bottom 96 to 98% of us) and at the expense of a healthy economy.
Rich/wealthy people for the greater most part are good, solid Americans, good citizens, disciplined, usually intelligent, generally quite moral. The
economy has been hijacked by certain, I repeat, certain few and powerful factions (a vastly small % of the overall population). With great amounts of
money, certain individuals, certain companies and their CEOs and executives employing money in the hands and control of lobbyists that they dispatch,
have been able to influence legislation and policy with the "revolving door" and political contributions and perqs that have succeeded in turning the
heads of legislators and government agencies and yes, even presidents, to do their bidding. These factions have been extremely successful in their
pursuit at skewing the economy. I would say it is just about a "fait accomplis" at this point. It has hurt you, me, and everyone else in this forum.
The wrong tree you are wrongly climbing is positing that those that disagree with you are pitting one class against the other. You are off the mark,
and dammit, Cypress, it just insn't as simple as you would like to make it.
Cypress, do you call Hedge fund managers that have made $100s of Millions of dollars in one year gambling with depositors' money on risky credit
default swaps that crashed, losing their companies and investors millions and yet they still got their bonuses as, to quote you, "... folks that have
managed their finances..."? I don't. Do you?
What tree? Are you kiddng me?
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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http://www.marketminder.com/s/fisher-investments-us-manufact...
My daughter-in-law, a CA teacher, is the sole breadwinner in her family as my son is a stay-at-home dad taking care of the two little girls. They
live in a nice 3 bdrm, 2 bath home w/ a 2 car garage that they are buying in a nice neighborhood in Chico, CA. They own an SUV and a Toyota Camry,
both about 7 years old. They don't have many "extras", but then none of us did either at their age, and believe me they have WAY MORE than I did at
that age.
I am just saying--------------don't believe everything you hear.
Barry
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
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Barry,
I appreciate your doing some research. That will help alot. Man, I find it fascinating stuff, I can't get enough of it. It's all so relevant.
Where one can go sideways in all this is by going on "impressions" and what "seems" to be the case. That will quickly get you off track and going in
the wrong direction from truth and fact. As a science and math guy, I have learned that many things in the real world work in a progression of a body
of developing, evolving fact going from the simple and progressively becoming more complex. Like math, if you miss a part of a buiding block in
theory, it is impossible to go forward. It's like a chain with a missing link.
Economics in not a simple "impression".
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Barry A.
Fellow Nomads
You seem to forget that there is no pure Socialist, Communist or Capitalist State. All economies are mixed economies; the issue is how these systems
are integrated.
You may want more of one and less of the other but all economies contain elements of Socialism and Capitalism.
In a pure Capitalist state there would be no public roads, public sewers, public water systems, public fire departments, public libraries, public
police, public military etc. These enterprises would all be private. I very much doubt that any on this board would want to live in such a system.
Iflyfish |
Bravo, Iflyfish, bravo. Right on target, again.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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I'm not defending the Wall Street crooks that got a free pass. They're actually more honest than the elected officials that take contributions/gifts
from lobbiest. Rich vrs. poor? You must not have been watching the news. The Dems are playing the same old game again. They're bag of tricks isn't
very deep. The worst Repub candidate is better than what we now have for Prez.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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Here's a "fact", not an "impression"--------the MSCI WORLD INDEX on an annualized basis has returned 14.9% on average over long term up until the end
of 2007--------I can't seem to find any more current data, but that "return" has got to be lower now after all the turmoil of the past 2 + years, or
so. But still, that is a GREAT return. My benchmark for my portfolio is the MSCI WORLD INDEX, and my portfolio has beat the Index long term.
What's not to love?? Things are NOT as bad as the Media would have you believe. My personal experience backs that up.
Barry
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
I'm not defending the Wall Street crooks that got a free pass. They're actually more honest than the elected officials that take contributions/gifts
from lobbiest. |
Man, am I glad and heartened to hear you say that. Couldn't agree with you more.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Rich vrs. poor? You must not have been watching the news. The Dems are playing the same old game again. They're bag of tricks isn't very deep. The
worst Repub candidate is better than what we now have for Prez. |
I will admit that liberal pundits frequent use of the term rich and wealthy in describing the inequities of income and wealth, it does "sound" like a
distaste for the rich and wealthy and may well contribute to adversarial tension. I wish that liberal pundits would make it clear that it is the
skewed economy and the hijacked government that is the culprit and not specifically wealthy/rich people as a monolithic broad single responsible
entity. I don't believe that for one second. All my clients were wealthy people and the vast majority were/are very good people. Can't blame the
vast majority of them for trying and succeeding in maximizing their income and wealth through an existing economic system that was not of their
specific making. Don't blame them at all; it's the system we find ourselves in, individually.
But, make no mistake, this talk of "class warfare" is solely the responsibility of the right. They are the ones that brought up the term, they are
the ones using and accusing with the term, they are the ones framing it, not the left. IT is a form of right wing spin and inflamatory tactic. Very
disingenuous, extremely misleading, and intellectually dishonest. Its use is a ruse and a deflection trying to take the offense when it is their
skewing and hijacking of the economy in favor of a bias toward the top income earners tha is the culprit. The right wing pundits know this, and they
are fiercely afraid of discovery by the general public. But, the discovery is on the way.
I am seeing the liberal pundits finallydisclosing the salient points: massive disproportionate concentration of wealth and income at the top and the
resultant lack of income and wealth at the bottom. A situation that has progressively gotten worse since 1980 and really beginnng in real terms with
the Reagan administration. Not opinion, the smple income tax stats of income and tax liabilities bare this out. It's a matter of objective IRS
record.
The cancer in government began with the Reagan adminstration and their subvesive intent of destroying the government by defunding it, privatization,
income tax emasculation, safety net cut back, deregulation by deliberately stacking government regulating agencies with department heads whose agenda
it was to scrap the agency itself. Also, the complicit behavior of the government with the handouts to those in the utility and healthcare industry
in compliance with the right wing's agenda of privatization.
There are specific people and specific companies that do and are responsible for the problem, past and present, and they should be singled out,
identified, and disclose exactly what they are doing and what they have done. But, they are but a fraction of the wealthy and powerful, AND, there
are those bad players that are not among the wealthy that are powerful politically and socially. They should be similarly outed.
An unfortunate circumstance also exists and it is that those few have succeeded in hood winking the majority of the right wing in mimicking and
babboting their wrong headed messaging. They are very good at messaging and making their wrong headed notions simple, catchy, easy to understand and
back it up with relentless repeated consistant broad casting in the media.
[Edited on 10-30-2011 by MitchMan]
[Edited on 10-30-2011 by MitchMan]
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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So if a dem plays the rich vrs. poor game(class warfare) and a repub. points it out, it's the repubs fault? I see! Don't forget about Halliburton,
Cheney, and Bush.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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Mitch---------"subversive intent of destroying the government"--------are you kidding???? I am particularily offended by the term
"subversive"---------the GOP has never wanted to "destroy the goverment", they just want govt. to stay as the Constitution requires it to be, and get
out of the way of private enterprise to a degree necessary in order for it (and all Americans) to prosper. How is that "subversive"??? We really
really beleave this stuff we spout, regardless of what you think. We don't believe that the Government is even capable of managing the economy, let
alone improve it, and the latest couple of years has , once again, proven that, to us anyway. To the contrary, we think the left is actually trying
to tear the existing system down, to all our detriment, and replace it with something that has been proven over and over again not to work (like the
system in Europe is accomplishing). That is not "subversive" to anything but the Liberal agenda, it seems to me.
By the way, I should have added to my last post that at 14.9% annualized return, one's portfolio doubles every 5 years, I am told---------------now
THAT is impressive in my book, and close to my experience.
Barry
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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Well said MitchMan.
What is not in dispute is that Rupert Murdock's FOX has at its head Roger Ailes. It is infomrative to read Roger Ailes bio. He worked as a media
consultant for Nixon and was involved in his dirty tricks.
http://tinyurl.com/3lvy2zj
Ailes Bio:
http://theglobalrealm.com/2011/06/16/how-roger-ailes-built-t...
Roger Ailes provides talking memos to his "news" talent each day according to people who have worked there.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0418038/
FOX "News" is the most watched source of "news" in this country and has led the poles for a very long time. FOX is the source of "news" for a majority
of Americans.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-news-most-watched-cable-news-...
Is it news or propoganda when a "news/entertainment" Media Corporation provides talking points for its talent?
http://www.truth-out.org/14-propaganda-techniques-fox-news-u...
http://www.outfoxed.org/
What do you think of a "news" Media Corporation directly funding political campaigns?
http://www.mediaite.com/online/news-corp-enters-into-politic...
http://www.commonblog.com/2011/05/16/hat-tip-fox-is-going-pu...
What do you think about Corporations having the same rights as human beings?
http://reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/
What do you think about Corporations, including "News Corporations" having unlimited right to make political donations?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/21/supreme-court-sid...
Is it possible that we have been the recipients of propaganda that supports Corporate interests over those of the majority of the people in the USofA?
Is it possible that Corporate Media feeds on conflict and pits us against eachother in order to take the focus off fundamental structural problems in
the US, i.e. Illegal Immigration, what people do with their sex organs, womans control of their uturuses etc.?
Is it possible that it is not in Corporate Media interest to pay attention to underlying structural problems in the economy and to the fact that
Public Servants now spend their time making money to fund their war chests that are then paid to Corporate Media for air time via political adds?
2-3 Billion dollars are spent each year on political advertising.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/about-26-billi...
Do you know who owns the airwaves?
http://www.commoncause.org/site/pp.asp?c=dkLNK1MQIwG&b=4...
Do you think it would be good to get money out of politics?
http://peopleforpolity.blogspot.com/2011/09/half-of-congress...
Iflyfish
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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Holy Toledo, after reading most of that, Fish (and perhaps ONLY that) it's no wonder that you guys are up in arms, I guess. DUHHHHHHHHH, of course
all this goes on, and there is always symphathetic "news organizations" to quote the propaganda that supports their leanings--------what else is
new??? That is politics, at least that is the politics of the radicals that want their point of view presented, and the other point of view skewed
and spun to their advantage. Again, DUHHHHHH.
I will stick with FOX NEWs, but watch the others closely to see what they are spinning today.
I notice that no one is addressing what I have been posting on this thread lately-------I must assume that you think me a loon, or that you don't have
any answers, or that you think my personal stories are irrelevant----------so be it---------I am only trying to help in trying to show "the other side
of the story", and all that.
----but, there IS another side of the story, you know. 
Barry
[Edited on 10-30-2011 by Barry A.]
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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Here is the latest on the original question:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/27/gop-immigration_n_1...
Iflyfish
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
Member Is Offline
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I don't think that you are a loon, Barry, I just think that you are mistaken. But, then again, you think that I am mistaken as well. What is making
me chuckle right now is the realization that neither of us, nor any of us has changed our minds. After all that was written, no one is seeming to
have budged.
Now, that's funny!
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8946
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pole Line Road postponed due to injury
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This article articulates the Latino Republicano
This is an excellent article - explaining the Latino Republicano, Ronald Reagans compassion towards the Latino people, and now the GOP shift that has
taken place. Excellent article!
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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Barry A
I also don't think you are avian. I have not responded to your personal story, which I find very interesting, because it is an individual story, a
great story, but however a single story, like that of George Soros, who made his fortune in speculating on currency, or Rupert Murdock who made his
fortune on a media empire. The issues we are addressing are macro rather than micro in scale.
There is money to be made in the stock market whether it is going up or down. The people on Wall Street who bundled the mortgages and sold them at
inflated values, bet against their own instruments. There is nothing new there. I am very glad that you were smart enough to figure out how to prosper
using the stock market; few of us have the knowledge or tools to accomplish this though I sure wish I had. I for one would like to spend time with you
over a camp fire, your personal story and that of your family is a wonderful story. You are a reasoned and respectful person and it is always good to
spend time with someone like that.
MitchMan
I have also noticed also that there has been little if any change in viewpoints expressed on this thread. I did however acknowledge that I had erred
on the issue what percentage of the population pays the most taxes and I learned something in that part of the dialogue. I also have noticed that this
thread has had wide readership and a spirited exchange of ideas and perspectives and this is a good thing in my view. Change takes place over time and
cultural change takes even longer, witness the Civil Rights Movement, Woman's Rights etc.
It has taken the masses in this country a very long time to awaken and see what has happened to them in the last 30 years. It took decades for most
people to recognize that the Viet Nam War was a mistake. We are now seeing people take to the streets over the inequality that exists in the USofA.
I have found your posts to be informative and well thought out. I notice that many people post slogans and epitaphs that masquerade as knowledge and
are prone toward the personal attack. I think if you were to take a cross section of the population you would find most of those perspectives
represented here. I believe that we each do have a voice and it is important to have a place and time to use that voice. Baja Nomad is providing us a
forum to have an exchange of ideas and in my view this is a very good thing. People who have read this thread have been exposed to some very in-depth
analysis of our current situation and that discussion has generally maintained at least a modest decorum and we have been even able to address
unconscious racism while hurling few personal invectives at each other. This is better than what one can expect these days in a country that has been
poisoned and polarized by a 24/7 “news” cycle that generates its audience by inflaming differences and spinning “news”. We have also been able to
maintain this dialogue long enough for the original question to be answered if the polls I quoted in my last post are to be believed.
Iflyfishconmibajanomadamigos
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18385
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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liberal is a good word
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
The liberals are always going to blame business (corporations) and want to take other peoples' money (taxes) so a big nanny government can take care
of them and their new age projects.
Liberals believe compassion is people receiving government assistance.
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dk: your statements are ludicrous hyperbole.
new age projects? remember that us liberals also like the old age projects like
medicare and social security and human rights. as you get a few years older and start to rely on medicare and SS, you will thank us liberals for
protecting your benefits and creating a humane government.
si, se puede!
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
Member Is Offline
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Barry, referring to your earlier post on page 14, I applaud your hard work, going to garage sales and engaging in pure market capitalism. Can’t find
fault in that, only admiration and praise. The prospect that some may be upset with your making a profit by reselling is totally irrelevant and is
their problem for not fully understanding how market capitalism really works, and there is nothing wrong at all with a pure version of market
capitalism. I’m a lefty and I am not mad at your business activity and I have not read any economists, lefty or otherwise that would have any problem
at all with your activity. So, your supposition of a lefty being angry with you is not a well-founded accusation on your part. It’s just another
example of your willingness to “suppose, assume” your way into your own conclusions, building your own case on assumptions, not fact, then making a
wrong headed conclusion which you take as fact while all along it was based on faulty assumptions of your own imagination
| Quote: | Barry A.
Mitch---------"subversive intent of destroying the government"--------are you kidding???? I am particularily offended by the term
"subversive"---------the GOP has never wanted to "destroy the goverment", they just want govt. to stay as the Constitution requires it to be, and get
out of the way of private enterprise to a degree necessary in order for it (and all Americans) to prosper. |
Do your remember one of the Reagan’s first appointees James Watt as sec. of the Interior? Before his appointment, he directed a legal foundation
dedicated to fighting the Interior Department’s conservation policies with donations from wealthy ranchers, oil companies, and timber interests. This
is not the only example of Reagan’s deliberately subversive appointments. Reagan similarly appointed a rancher to run the Bureau of Land Management, a
former coal executive to run the strip mining office, and a lumber industry lawyer to run the Forest Service. Each had been deliberately hand picked
for their hostility and indifference to the respective agency. William Bennett, Reagan’s boy as Secretary of Education, wanted to WITHHOLD resources
from public schools in order to force his agenda of vouchers and religious schools to replace public education.
Reagan appointed Ann Gorsuch to run the EPA; she had no experience in environmental issues. In two years she wrecked the agency by stripping the
agency’s efficient and experienced employees of their authority and concentrating power in the hands of her cronies who she got from the ranks of
industry lobbyists. She reduced personnel down by 80 to –90% in one year by firings and demotions at a time when the workload was increasing. Also,
Reagan stopped actions against air polluters and reversed actions already settled.
Reagan replaced Volker with Greenspan because Volker wasn’t enough of a deregulator and wouldn’t play ball. As we all know, Greenspan has been fully
discredited and admitted his egregious flaws publicly and he apologized for the wreckage he spurned due to his reckless monetary policies and
mismanagement and complete dereliction of duty to regulate as FED chairman that directly contributed a great deal to the 2007/8 crisis.
There are other examples of right wing sabotage: the undermining of the FDA, Dept of Labor, OSHA, Consumer Product Safety Commission, The Mine Safety
and Health Administration, The Department of Health and Human Services, The SEC, etc., etc., etc. I could go on for months on this with regard to the
deliberate destruction of the federal government from within by Nixon, Reagan, Bush I and II by using privatization (rewarding their political
contribution base), hostile appointees, defunding the government by tax cuts and government cut backs to only specific gov agencies, and reckless
deregulation (again rewarding their political contribution base). But, just one more, remember John Bolton? The guy Bush II appointed as Ambassador
to the UN… a guy who is on record as despising the UN.
Barry, there are so many examples of right wing administrations’ deliberate, express and explicit actions to undermine and destroy the federal
government, our country’s government, from within that a mere sampling is sufficient to emaciate your defense to the contrary and show your taking
“offense” is without real foundation and not in sync with the realities at hand; certainly misplaced sentiment in view of the preponderance of facts
at anyone’s finger tips.
| Quote: | Barry A.
…we think the left is actually trying to tear the existing system down… |
Oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense, in view of the preceding and actual history. As usual, Barry, you got it a$$ backwards…. again.
David K,
Your entire post is nothing more than accusations without citations to support your contentions, and repetition of banal right wing dogma in single
sentence staccato (again without factual support and citation). The most egregious and intellectually dishonest thing you always do is falsely and
incorrectly frame your twisted take of liberal ideology, and, as always without support and citation. No wonder why your side is so screwed up and
consistently wrong headed; you guys rely on faith alone and believe each other’s single sentence crap. Hence, your posts are not worthy of complete
quotation. By glaring contrast, Iflyfish’s posts are as those posts are full of citation and support, yours are not. Snap out of it, you’re
embarrassing yourself.
BTW, Goat, you're a good warrior. Keep up the good work.
[Edited on 10-30-2011 by MitchMan]
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