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Roberto
Banned
Posts: 2162
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
No way FARASHA --
Mexican people are the most gracious people I've met on a face to face basis but when left on their own, the most selfish and self centered. That is
evident in their driving style. They [ not all but, most] will run you off the road one minute and kiss your cheek when you subsequently meet them
in the parking lot... |
A very wise Mexican lady who is a friend and I were discussing this one evening while leaving (trying to) Pavarotti's performance near Mexicali a
couple of years back.
When I asked her why Mexicans are so elaborately courteous normally and so totally uncivilized when driving, she responded - "because when driving
they don't have to look you in the face". 
That's from a Mexican. Americans who "LOOOOVVVVVE" Mexico put all kinds of romantic notions around Mexican culture. I've said this before - people are
people, pretty much everywhere you go. There are cultural differences, for sure, but when dealing one-on-one, things simplify quite a bit. And a lot
of what is often attributed to "culture" is more related to social condition - when you don't have much, the world tends to take on a different
perspective, and farmers and poor people are very similar around the world. We compare people who live in what would be considered mansions, drive
around in vehicles worth more than people make in MANY years of work to folks who live day-by-day, by the fruit of their ingenuity, no credit. THAT'S
the biggest cultural gap of all.
[Edited on 12-9-2006 by Roberto]
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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Lee------
I live in Redding, CA----a town of about 85K people, with the most intermixed collection of houses I have ever seen----all mixed up. I see no class
here, but maybe I am blind.
I grew up, and lived for 30 years, in Coronado, CA which is a pretty "classy" town, but even there I saw little evidence of a "class conscious"
society, even tho we were deffinitely not in the earning category of most living there. My widowed Mom was a teacher in a private nursery school. We
were treated like everybody else in town, or so it seemed to us.
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kellychapman
Nomad
Posts: 246
Registered: 9-19-2006
Location: Loreto CBS
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Mood: heavenly
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Dennis, had me chuckling with that one.
"Mexicans focus on not being on time as much as we focus on being on time. Just a different value."
So you think Mexicans sit around and think "hmm, too early, hmmm I think I will be late to pee those Anglos off?"
I think that the experience of time is very different. Ever "loose track of time"? I sure do. Fact I lose track of lots of things now, but I digress,
but I digress a lot now a days too. One of the things I do when going on vacation is to put my clock away. I sincerly doubt that the typical Mexican
would even be this conscious of time.
I wonder what others think. Do Mexicans have a different concept to time?
Iflyfish |
this is making me laugh....do mexicans have a different concept of time...of course they
do.....and it is different then it is for those that wear a watch....sure is nice to not wear one here in Loreto....it gets done when it gets
done.....
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kellychapman
Nomad
Posts: 246
Registered: 9-19-2006
Location: Loreto CBS
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Mood: heavenly
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
| Quote: | Originally posted by FARASHA
SO - what I was thinking today : what is it - that is different in the Mexican Culture that is attracting those who keep going back or live there
fulltime?? Beside that it is cheaper. |
3 words:
heart vs head
--Larry |
its beautiful....and I do not have to be on time.....
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kellychapman
Nomad
Posts: 246
Registered: 9-19-2006
Location: Loreto CBS
Member Is Offline
Mood: heavenly
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
I'll reprise one of my oldies but goodies here because it fits.
Quizás
Yesterday the beach was a war zone. Well, maybe a miniature war zone. Squadrons of dragonflies, wave after wave of tiny helicopters, strafed the
beach. The mission: find and eat every small bug on the beach. A million sorties following some unseen leader with orders to move west but stay
between the shore and the palms.
While I was pretending to be an heroic war correspondent risking my neck to give the world the real-time sights and sounds of the action along the
beachhead, two Mexican fishing boats roared through the surf, up onto the beach. Pepe and his brothers said their hellos. Pepe said the sigarones,
the dragonflies, signaled rain. When I asked him when we could expect the rain he answered with his grinning-pirate look, it said it pleased him to
be vague.
His brother, Juan, said they come out after a rain. Juan has the look and demeanor of a Mexican Archie Bunker. Who should I believe? If we throw
out the niggardly constraints of time, they are both right.
This is how I spend my time in Mexico -- having to choose between two (or more) answers to every question. The land may be mostly implacable granite
and prickly cactus but it is pure quicksand for anyone looking for a hard-and-fast answer to anything. In order to better communicate I have forced
myself to be a better listener. I have not learned enough. I use the words siempre and nunca, always and never, as and when the conversation
dictates. These words are rarely spoken in this pueblo -- perhaps used little in all of Mexico. In a land where nothing is what it appears to be I
should expect to hear probables and posibles, a vezes, quisás manana. (probably, possibly, at times, perhaps tomorrow) The language demonstrates
the basic fatalistic view of the Mexican people. Fatalism defines the culture, pervades every sector of society.
The bending, warping of time is not culturally unique but it stands out like a c-ckroach on a wedding cake when compared to the U.S. cultural
imperative, the atomic clock exactitudes we are so proud of, the "seventeen jewels that dictate the rules".
The western world misinterprets the Mexican time view and world view, sees the people as non-productive, lazy. Time, taken in the abstract, the
Mexican way, offsets the Judeo/Christian stigma of guilt. The time-bending thing allows Mexicans to enjoy the leisure and forgiveness of a mas o menos
attitude about how they run their daily lives. Being a day early or three days late does not call for a trip to the confessional, a single mea culpa.
When two compadres joke with one another, the word lazy, flojo, is often used but it evokes laughter not scorn.
Only now, after spending a few years in Mexico, am I beginning to understand and appreciate the subtlety of these quirks of culture. One day I may
reap some of the benefits myself. I won't bore you with a long list of wonderful side effects but we can both feel the obvious orgullo de patria,
country pride, a Mexican worker must feel, arriving a week late for work, upon learning that his whole crew was laid off several days ago.
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never better said....thank you for your words of wisdom ...do you have more to share????..
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kellychapman
Nomad
Posts: 246
Registered: 9-19-2006
Location: Loreto CBS
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Mood: heavenly
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| Quote: | Originally posted by capn.sharky
I will add my dos pesos now....to get along in Mexico remember the three most important things....respect, respect, respect. Everything else should
fall into place. |
3 chears for Respect Respect Respect........here are my dos pesos.....
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Bob H
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5867
Registered: 8-19-2003
Location: San Diego
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
IFF ---
Mexicans focus on not being on time as much as we focus on being on time. Just a different value. |
I'm with Dennis on this one. For me, being on time is just being respectful of others expectations. How hard is it to be on time? Huh? Jeeze.....
Bob H
The SAME boiling water that softens the potato hardens the egg. It's about what you are made of NOT the circumstance.
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kellychapman
Nomad
Posts: 246
Registered: 9-19-2006
Location: Loreto CBS
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Mood: heavenly
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
That's Me. Looking forward to the day when every Country is just another bunch of American towns. Same language, same Food. That's Culture.
Sounds good to me. |
that's culture....
that's scary.....thats a horrible thought.....and why not just stay in America instead of taking over the world.....
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kellychapman
Nomad
Posts: 246
Registered: 9-19-2006
Location: Loreto CBS
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Mood: heavenly
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| Quote: | Originally posted by FARASHA
Finally back on OUR thread - busy days nowadays at work.
Great Kelly that you finally turned up here - you are living fulltime in BCS - I wonder if you have contact with Mexican women? IF so what differences
can you see?
YES toneart, I agree - this board IS male dominated by those reasons you mentioned, I figured this too.
And NO I do not feel that I'm standing alone with my point of view. Rather the other way around, quite often in my Life I get to hear that I'm too
analytical/rational, which dosn't apply for a WOMAN (for some people). I find myself often in a rather male led discussion, then in a femal tea
circle.
That made me here wonder again, as I thought this is an NON gender related issue - so why no females??
I just missed some femal voices, in addition to Mexican voices.
It's my profession kicking in - to hear ALL perspectives on a Subject. And for those who will now ask - I'm working in the mental departement. So
human behavior and their reasons/results are my daily business.
I found many posts on this thread that saved me the time to post myself. THANKS to them 
I am glad to find out that the cultural differences between an Austrian and Baja Nomads are not that far apart as the one from USA and Mexican 
NOW lets continue!! |
Hola dear Farasha...as usual I am never on time...lol....its contagious here...and yes
I do have contact with alot of the Mexican women. In reality it is the same here as the rest of the world.....women rule when it really comes down to
it in the family unit.....and as long as the women are happy, then everybody else is toooooo......
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kellychapman
Nomad
Posts: 246
Registered: 9-19-2006
Location: Loreto CBS
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Mood: heavenly
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Oso
Having seen "Midnight Express", I ain't never going to Turkey, no how, no way.
"There are only three true sports: Bullfighting, Mountaineering, and Auto Racing. The rest are just games."
-E. Hemingway |
well I would not go to Turkey either if I planned on smuggling a waistband of hashhish back
home....unless of course I followed mommas rule of "never let them see you sweat. I once had a freindship with a very rich and famous man and
wife...only because of my husband as they both made me sick....but she did tell me that in all her world travels..and belive me there were many with
their wealth....and she told me that the museums in Istanbul Turkey were of some of the finest in the world. But if your up to no good then Turkey is
NOT the place to do it.....
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kellychapman
Nomad
Posts: 246
Registered: 9-19-2006
Location: Loreto CBS
Member Is Offline
Mood: heavenly
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
I started this topic as a place to discuss cultural differences. I wonder if they can be discussed without rancor and just as differences.
I notice that when I ask directions in Mexico that the person I have asked will often give me directions, even when I sense that they really don't
know the direction. Are they just trying to please and give some hope that I will find something? Are they not wanting to displease by saying “I don’t
know”? Is it not ok to not have an answer? I am curious about this phenomenon.
I have experienced people in the height of good feelings and good will offer to meet me or do something or other and then not be there or do what they
say they will do. I wonder if this is the product of living “in the moment” so that the expression of positive social outcome, i.e. “I will meet you
for dinner tomorrow evening” means “I am enjoying your and our interaction” enough that I would even continue it at some time if that worked out”?
In the Book Men are From Venus and Women Mars, or something like that, or Tannen’s You Don’t Understand me, the author talked about the psychological
level transaction that underlies woman’s’ interactions, it goes some thing like this, “how are we doing?”, “are we ok with each other now?” Observing
men interacting with each other his/her, view was that they were interested in dominance and control, or social positioning. “Who is on top,” “Who is
the most expert, stronger, most knowledgeable”? Etc. If this paradigm holds true, I wonder if those Mexican people that I have mentioned above are
simply operating out of a more “feminine” mode of interaction where the focus on the relationship in the now is paramount?
Brain science has taught us that the left-brain is the rational, logical side, while the right-brain is the more intuitive, affectively focused lobe.
In this context men would tend more toward left dominance while women more the right. Again stereotypes but some general truth to this proposition I
think. Using this paradigm is the typical Mexican more likely to be right brained?
Notice I am not making a value judgment as to which side of the brain is superior, or which function is preferable, hopefully we would have
significant balance in our domain dominance.
We need both.
I know that there are native Mexicans on this list and I would be interested in hearing from them also what differences they notice. One that I have
heard is that the Norte Americano are always in a hurry, that they are rude because they do not take time to inquire about the family etc.
I think that this is a topic that often leads to misunderstanding between peoples because these differences often generate negative feelings based
upon misunderstandings of the other cultures ways of doing things. I noticed in a discussion on another topic that a couple of Nomads seemed to have
their feelings hurt when discussing this sort of cultural difference. That saddened me. I think it can be difficult to discuss these things without
one or the other feeling insulted. However if one can see these as only differences then greater understanding can occur. If I interpret my friends
not showing up for lunch as he said he would as a slight or insult to me, as I would if a Norte Americano did the same, then I might be missing a
deeper connection or cultural difference. I might miss entirely that he was saying how much he enjoyed me when he said he was going to meet me for
lunch.
Anyway, I hope others will share some of the differences that they have noticed. I think this could be a very interesting discussion. Just please
don’t start your sentances with Mexicans do…….or Norte Americano’s do……….. Not all Mexicans are the same nor are all Norte Americano’s. There are
regional differences in the US of A that one can notice as one travels. I have noticed this in Mexico also. What is your experience with this? I
wonder if our native Mexican Nomads have noticed these differences when traveling up north?
Iflyfish when not stirring up hornets nests |
I have read this quote many times and I can only say I am
saddened you and your family are not coming all the way to Loreto as it would be so much fun to meet and show you more then all the good taco
stands....and all the things to do.... it would be an honor to drink some tequilla
with and listen to some of your stories and views about life....of course bring your wife too...lol bounce:
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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Cute, but...
| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Only now, after spending a few years in Mexico, am I beginning to understand and appreciate the subtlety of these quirks of culture. One day I may
reap some of the benefits myself. I won't bore you with a long list of wonderful side effects but we can both feel the obvious orgullo de patria,
country pride, a Mexican worker must feel, arriving a week late for work, upon learning that his whole crew was laid off several days ago.
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Not if you're the boss. 
I often wonder where most Mexicans learn their cavalier attitude about timeliness, especially when someone else is paying for it.
Do they learn it in School?
Does the bell ring only when students decide to show up? Do they turn in assignments whenever the mood strikes them?
Or maybe from the surgeon?
"Want that emergency appendectomy now or mañana?"
Quirk of culture or labor law?
I frequently talk with Mexican employers about deportment. They tell me that when their employees show up late or not at all...It's because they can.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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KellyChapman
Thank you. The feeling is mutual. There are so many wonderful people on this site. I hope we do meet some Nomads while we are in Baja.
Iflyfish
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Kelly, I have more to share. I wish the Mexican congress could send an envoy to see the Pope, get some special dispensation, change Easter just
enough to nudge it into June. In June the wind is not much of a problem here. Since Easter is not the same days each year It is uncanny bad luck
that the wind blows here, ruins the one time Mexican celebrants need calm days and blue skies.
Happy (Mexican) Campers
Ten O six A.M. A cassette was slipped into the player powered by a humongous amplifier. The unearthly noise blasted from the mega woofers with
enough force to nearly rupture the tympanic membrane; dislodge the delicate malleus and stirrup which struggled to stay in place, recognize and reduce
the overwhelming signals, send them on to the brain.
Thus began Semana Santa. There are uncountable places on the planet where Easter week is a time for religious solemnity, prayer and quietude. Not
here. This little village plays host each year to more than 500 Easter celebrants who turn our quiet beaches into noisy campgrounds. Come close to
the shore and your senses will be jarred, excited, tested. Acrid smoke from driftwood campfires lifts the pungent bite of chorizo frying with eggs
and chilis, flavors and pervades the crowded place. Tents, campers, trucks, cars and people are tightly packed, chockablock. A time for showing off
the brilliant colors of clothes, tents, beach towels – nothing subdued here. Scores of small children frolick in the surf, oblivious to the riotous
pulsing of the huge vocinos, speakers, the daylong chatter of the man near the stage. He must love the sound of his own crisp and witty
pronouncements -- his rapid fire delivery can only be drowned out by the music.
The village prepares for the event as though the guests had rented the place. Graders improve the dirt roads to and around the camping areas,
port-a-potties are deployed. Shades and a large stage are erected. Police, ambulance and first aid people patrol the area day and night. The local
garbage crews keep the whole staging area clean and free of glass or metal that could cut the children’s feet.
All the small stores in town are well-stocked with beer, ice, water, paper products, eggs and hotdogs. At our house we stocked up long ago, put
extra milk and bread in our freezer, eggs in the fridge. At our house we pray. Not so much to consecrate the memory of the Resurrection but to ask
for good camping weather for the hard working vacationers. Looks like this year our prayers have been answered.
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FARASHA
Senior Nomad
Posts: 848
Registered: 6-3-2006
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MY concept of TIME
OMG - soooo many posts - can't keep track and/or respond as I want too - I simply would run out of my TIME.
OOOPS - hang on, what time? It's saturday, now why I don't have the time?
HA! I want to squeeze in ALL what I couldn't fix during week, as during week I am at work and have no tim time to get anything done afterwards ( or
not as much). So it had to wait for weekend.
HM - if it could wait for weekend - well then it isn't that important anyway, and if I wait a bit longer, maybe it fixes itself.
BY: A) either someone else is doing it,
or B) I don't need it anymore!!
HEY I found a solution for my problem of lack of time - I'll go for A) or B)
Great post the last 12 hours - lots of time spent gals and guys - I see, you found my solution A+B before me!!??
Thanks to OSPREY - wonderful and made me grin a lot - absolutly hit the nail!!
DRESS and other Codes - OH YEAH - watch the youngsters, watch the women !!
It is GUCCI if you got the cash - if not then a fake!!
If not Victorias Secret - then well Macy's SALE is a chance.
BOOBS - if you got the cash, Push up Bra for those who can't afford.
and don't tell me the guys are not into it, some words -CARS, BOATS, FISHING ROD, etc..............THAT is a CODE too, and it differentiates the
UPPERCLASSES, Middlclasses, and Trailertrash, and Socialwelfarers. Or am I wrong??
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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This has been fun. I have enjoyed all of the posts and points of view expressed in this dialogue. We did manage to discuss some real differences and
yet keep the discussion positive. I hope that this can continue on Nomads. Differences are differences and that alone. This cross cultural undertaking
is at times very challenging as Osprey so eloquently discribes, and yet so rewarding as our eyes open and we SEE. Aha, a difference! G,D! Grrrrrr, oh,
it's a difference.
We are nearly ready to hit the road and head south to Baja. I have learned so much, laughed a lot and fired some shots over some bows, Not bad action
for one site.
Feliz Navidad e Prospero Nuavo Ano \
Merry Christmas and a Happy and Prosperous New Year.
We are in an 06 Winnebago View with "Got Baja" stickers. If you see us, say hello!
Iflyfish
Iflyfish
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3593
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
Member Is Offline
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Thoughts from the smoked seal thread
Just watched the dolphin massacre and thought that the killing (how the dolphins were rounded up, hauled behind a pickup tied to a rope) is part of
the Jap culture.
Personally, I think the Japanese are in the same boat as the Mexicans who killed the whales at Scammons around the 1850s.
My question to those who are PC minded: respect the Japanese and their culture?
Respect the Mexicans who killed whales culturally?
Same? Different?
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FARASHA
Senior Nomad
Posts: 848
Registered: 6-3-2006
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I just don't know, to tell the truth -LEE. If it IS part of Culture - then it
needs EDUCATION to get people understand WHAT they do to Nature. And that there are other options.
BUT in the case of the JAPANESE it is not just A culture thing, it is a BIG COMMERCIAL interest.
Plus I would say that Japan is not underdeveloped, not a 3rd World Country, with people under the povertyline - who need to feed their families -
which way ever.
Beside that the Japanese have a VERY different perspective on NATURE and LIFE anyway(always had).
And I have to admit - I have more understanding for Mexican's earning a living with it, then for the Japanese - for the above reasons.
But still it is a different Life they live, and I do not have an IN DEPHT understanding about the Japanese Culture.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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Lee,
There once was a time of abundance..............not now.
Iflyfishwhenignoringracialslurs
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fdt
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4059
Registered: 9-7-2003
Location: Tijuana, Baja California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Yeah, what if it all goes right
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Lee
Respect the Mexicans who killed whales culturally?
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What mexicans are you talking about?
The Scammon Martinez or the Scammon Lopez. Then there was Jose Francisco Jimenez Scammon.
It was Scammon who, in the winter of 1857-58, would discover the existence of the lagoons where hundreds of Gray Whales came annually to give birth.
It was Scammon who would initiate the whalers' brutal slaughter of pregnant or nursing females. Without their mothers, the calves could not survive to
make the northern journey. During the early 1850s, there may still have been upwards of twenty thousand California Gray Whales. Within two decades,
probably less than two thousand remained to keep the species alive.
From Dick Russel's Eye of the whale.
It wasn't los mejicanos
http://www.du.edu/~ttyler/ploughboy/starbuck.htm
A well informed Baja California traveler is a smart Baja California traveler!
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