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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ramuma53
Woooosh
El Oasis was originally sold to El Oasis, by Roberto Ballin De Leon, he acquired it from Moreno y Cia. Suscesores, the Daisy Moreno estate, they do
not have a National Land title, but they in the 1990 were being evicted by Ejido Maztlan and they contacted me and my technical team, we did the Ejido
Mazatlan basic documents study and found out that they had a virtual execution, their topographical plans were a bad joke and actually had absolutely
no land because their expropriation was against the Machado Family that had actually no land at all.
We proved all those facts in Federal court and won the case in favor of El Oasis, later the ruling was confirmed in Supreme Court.
About that property, even if they are still over National land, they only have to regularize by paying the nation and the property will be absolutely
clear, so I don´t think the investors have anything to worry about, they have a supreme court ruling backing up their right. |
It is good to know that NAOS is a safe investment from a land title perspective. Whether or not it is a good economic investment is up to the buyers.
The owners are building NAOS with their own money without the need for advance deposits- unlike Trump Baja, so the project will be completed. Whether
or not they sell, and at what price they sell- is up to the real estate market. Thanks Ramuma53.
I think eventually we will end up with a list of projects in Rosarito that either have or do not have land title problems. Then investors can still
feel confident to invest in those projects and areas where their investment, from a title perspective- is safe. If investors still choose to buy in
an area with known title problems- they can negotiate the sales price downward to match their future risk of losing it. There will always be people
who will invest in risky projects no matter how much information they have. You can't fix stupid.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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ramuma53
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Whooosh
I think that you are right in the money
My only concern is that people buy in to old, complex land problems unaware of the problems or because they are induced in to believing, that
everything is ok forever and no legal problem is in the horizon or that if you go to were mostly Mexicans have bought in the past, you are safe.
That way, if people buy, they will not be able to say that Mexico is a mess against foreigners or that Mexico take advantage of them, because they
knew that there were standing problems and that developers are trying to hide land problems that they intend on dumping on them while walking away
with a big bag of money.
Also I want to make clear, that buying where Mexicans have bought in the past do not prevent you from having problems, because they are in the same
problem and subjected to the same developers lie and that is the case of all the Ejido Mazatlan developments where there are very few Americans.
Also Venustiano Carranza being a mostly Mexican town, have been having problems for decades even if they have their National Land title, because that
only guarantee that they will recover their land in the near future while taking away houses that already were sold to Americans.
This is not an easy problem, that is why the almost fanatic response to desperately try to keep it hided against all fairness to the buyer.
Look at the developers advocates message:
I.- Disregard this information as false and given away by a crook that try to take away other peoples land.
II.- Everything is fine with land titles in Rosarito and developers are based on old titles that are good.
III.- Go buy where other people has bought and you will be completely safe because Mexicans with political and money power will protect you against
the law.
AT THE SAME TIME, THEY D NOT PROVIDE ANY LEGAL OR LOGICAL ARGUMENT AGAINST THE LAWS OR LEGAL ACTS THAT GROUND MY INFORMATIONS, THEY ARE ONLY TRYING TO
SHOOT THE MASSAGER BUT NOT EVEN DENYING THE MESSAGE.
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jenny.navarrette
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
You do realize we're talking Mexico here...
Not Shangri-La. |
More like Shinaloa-law?
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Cypress
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Rent! Spend some time in an area. You'll save yourself some grief on down the line. The Baja of today isn't the same as the Baja of 30 or even 10 yrs.
ago. Not many places are.
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wessongroup
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Thanks for the four bullet points for doing the title aspect of the transaction, it is very helpful to cull down to a couple of simple points, easily
understood..
Agree also in the identification and disclosure of those properties and/or areas which have "imperfect titles" ..
The development of simple steps to accomplish the goal of purchasing property in Baja (with reduced risk) would be of benefit to all.. both for the
Mexican people, and the foreigner purchasing "property" in Baja...
Looked at a lot of real estate while down in one year... found some that we liked, but... when it came down to where the rubber met the road... I
found "non performance" in suppling documents by seller's to be my stopping point...
Either you have clear title, or your don't..... and if someone "owns" a asset which is real estate, but doesn't have a valid "plot" map .. or clear
title to the asset .. or can't not supply.... Take a hike... be they lawyer, priest, or mayor of the town... money talks and BS walks....
Coulda, woulda, shoulda..... the title comes before all the rest... ya can't sell what ya don't own by Mexican Law... legally ... I might be wrong,
but I don't think so.... that is seems to be one thing that works on both sides of the border... legal ownership of a property, supported by a clear
title to the site.
And if ya don't think title is important.... ask all those lenders NOB ... trying to clean up the mess they have with all those transactions in their
portfolios which are unsupported by title... 
[Edited on 4-1-2011 by wessongroup]
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JESSE
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jenny.navarrette
| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
What???? theres plenty of middle, upper middle, and wealthy Mexican neighborhoods in Baja. And no, we usually don't have loud music until the wee
hours, or lose everything that isn't tied down.
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Oh, were your cats tied down? Why don't you save lookingandnotbuying a lot of time and just tell him where the middle and upper middle class Baja
neighborhoods are where you don't have to listen to loud music all night? Be sure to list only those neighborhoods where the real estate titles are
secure.
Gonna be a very short list. |
Not at all, in fact, theres way too many to mention. Here in La Paz theres Fidepaz, Lomas de Palmira, Pedregal, and a couple of others i don't know
their name. And that is only La Paz.
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wessongroup
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Sanborn maps of Mexico... they are from the Library of Congress... additional coverage may be available through same...
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/sanborn/mexico.html
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ramuma53
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Here, I provide a map, showing all the old titles that were issued against the 1863 law while several of them were affected by the May 7, 1916
presidential decree
From those titles only the Rancho Tijuana tha is covered by Tijuana city is completely out of the woods.
Any other place should be checked to see if it has a National Land title as first documentnt in the Title chain
If someone need this in a more detailed profesional way, I can provide the same in an AutoCad drawing, exact to the mm
[Edited on 4-4-2011 by ramuma53]
[Edited on 4-13-2011 by ramuma53]
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SDRonni
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Where is the map?
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ramuma53
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Looks like our friend Jesus Chavez Partida alias Jeese the known liar, has not been using his real photo here, while operating Las Tres Virgenes
restaurant in La Paz, but, strange that when he was in Rosarito, he was just an employee and now he apear as luxury restaurant owner.
Interesting where the investment money came and why his hate ? but we are just starting uncovering his motivations.
[Edited on 4-5-2011 by ramuma53]
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ELINVESTIG8R
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WHOSE POST SCORE COULD THIS BE?
Keep up the good work Rafael!
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ramuma53
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I see that people here, want to have a concrete short list of facts that will help them to acquire Real Estate in Baja.
I will give you a short directive and a long reason plus a way to protect you:
Directive 1.- Do not buy, under any reason or sales motivations, on the Tijuana Ensenada strip, between the Road and the Federal Zone, unless they
show you the first document in the title chain that should be a recent National Land title, not one issued before the Mexican Revolution (1876-1917).
Reason: That area is covered by the 1952 Presidential Decree declaring that land National Property not acquirable by any other mean but a National
Land Title. It start at Arroyo El Rosarito just south of Rosairto Hotel and ends at Punta banda in Ensenada.
The 1879 title´s rights were sold in 1915 to a foreign company, and then returned to National Property in May 7, 1917 and that National Land property
turned in to National Land in November 1952.
Absolutely, in 20 years, nobody have been able to deny those arguments in a legal way, there are a lot of legal precedents already ruled by Supreme
Court.
If you acquire land in that area that is not covered by a National Land Title issued legally, you would be liable for using, buying, making commerce
acts illegally on National Property, a Federal offense.
Ignorance of the law does not excuse you for breaking it.
Title insurance only cover you financially on the amount covered, absolutely do not protect you against losing the land.
Way to protect you:
If you already bought on one of those developments, ask for your money back.
If you are unable to get your money back, stop your payments and let them sue you, then use the reasons I gave you here, to justify stopping your
payments, then ask for the National land office to defend your case, being an irregular user of National Land. (Actually you discovered that the
people selling you real estate, was not the real owner.). And to keep you there, ask the National Land office to sell you the land through a Mexican
Corporation, you can do this on a group).
If you are planning to buy, look for the place you like, ask the apparent owner for the National land title, if as in most cases, the owner does not
have it and just tell you he is covered by a very old title, negotiate with the information I have provide you with here. (Estudios Baja, the Titanic
studios, bought the Popotla land, for USD$7.00 dlls/m2 when the Cadastral value was USD$200.00 dlls/m2 and then, sold it back for the same price, to
get out of National Land problems). Once you bought the land for pennies because you are just buying the National Land irregular possession, go to the
National Land office and pay the real price for the land to the Nation. (Do it legally through a Mexican Corporation). Remember on the buying
contract, to say, that you are just buying the irregular possession to avoid committing a federal crime.
Directive 2.- Do not under any motivation or price buy from an Ejido, much less Ejido Mazatlan in Rosarito.
Reason:
Ejido Mazatlan expropriated its lands to the Machado family and is a legal consequence to the inexistent title and in a legal consequence, its rights
are inexistent.
Most ejidos in Baja but not in Mexico don´t know where their lands are, because they do not have legal technical maps because they received the land
in an illegal act known as Virtual execution of a presidential decree that created them; the Ejido´s creation act is not discussed, but the act of
giving them physical lands is, because they did not received, in a legal way any land; to receive the land legally they would have had to notify all
the neighbors and they would have had to sign the legal technical act and since at that time the Agrarian department didn´t have the technical staff
to do it, they just jumped the legal act, giving them what is known as Virtual execution and the Supreme Court has declared Virtual Executions as
Nonexistent executions and that mean, they have not received any but any land and as a legal consequence they cannot sell or give away any land.
Way to protect you:
At this time the Ejidos can sell their land, but to do it in a legal way, they have to approve the separation of the land lot subjected to the
intention to sell and to do that they have to make the decision in a legal meeting, being there the public notary, SRA representative, Agrarian
procurator and every one of them have to legally testify that ejido members were there personally; sound easy but it is not.
Then they have to go through a SRA approval that may take years and need the ejido to be debt free, no legal actions pendent and certify that all
their technical works are correct. (In Baja an impossibility with very rare exceptions, one of them, Primo Tapia).
Then they would have land lot separated legally from the ejido lands and then and only then, they can close the sale to you and hope you have not
given any money to them or they will ask for more.
If you see, a very difficult and time consuming option, so I would just stay clear of Ejido lands or just rent from them and build what you can afford
to lose at any time.
To sue an ejido in Agrarian court, would be a futile act for you, Agrarian Courts work for the Ejidos, think of them as their employees and to find an
attorney that know about agrarian law and will defend you, is an illusory act, because they are bulk clients and most likely all the attorneys in town
work for them.
Text
As in the Art of War from Sun Tzu, follow this rules and you will be safe and maybe make money, do not follow them and you will lose money and time.
[Edited on 4-6-2011 by ramuma53]
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bryanmckenzie
Senior Nomad
Posts: 561
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Location: 400 Km from Mexico Beach, Florida
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Mood: Hot & humid --- not hot & dry.
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Okay, after spending the better part of 3 days trying to get caught up (about 8 hours of reading), let's take a look at the overall scoreboard
leaders. As you can see we have a neck-and-neck race going on between los santos y los diablos (you decide which is which).
ramuma53 _______________ jesse
Woooosh ________________ mtgoat666
lookingandbuying __________ jenny.navarrette
wessongroup
ELINVESTIG8R (dang, why won't these names line up in 2 nice colums?)
So that I can place my bet at the Baja real estate lottery window, I have to SEPARATE the MESSAGE from the MESSENGER (which several Nomads much wiser
than I have attempted to do). That results in just a few simple questions ...
... aww, horsefeathers!, as Colonel Potter used to say.
I had a set of reasonably intelligent YES / NO questions to post. But why enter the fray at this point. It's turned pretty ugly. Heck, it turned ugly
3 pages ago. I'm gonna sleep on that idea. It really won't improve on where this thread has gone.
For my own selfish curiosity, I do have some property-specific questions for ramuma53 that I'll post separately after this concerning
other locations in Baja.
[Edited on 2011-4-7 by bryanmckenzie]
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness.”
-Mark Twain
Samuel Langhorne Clemens (November 30, 1835 – April 21, 1910)
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bryanmckenzie
Senior Nomad
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Location: 400 Km from Mexico Beach, Florida
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Mood: Hot & humid --- not hot & dry.
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QUESTIONS for ramuma53
(1) You mention the East Cape. With respect to title problems, please elaborate on the proposed (crazy) Cabo Cortes project in Cabo Pulmo and the huge
chunk of land there; I know about the utter lack of water and the significant environmental catastrophe this project would cause. Ref.: http://www.cabopulmovivo.org/
(2) You mention Maravia Country Club Estates north of La Paz; yet another huge chunk of land already being developed. Please elaborate on specific
title problems. Ref.: http://www.maraviacountryclubestates.com/
(3) And there is another Maravilla south of Todos Santos also being planned. Since you mention Todos Santos has title problems, does this apply here
also. Ref.: http://www.maravillabaja.com/resort.htm
(4) And one last question ... what is the title status of a "sand spit" formed by water runoff in Bahia de la La Paz and a project-in-progress called
Paraiso del Mar? Did this sandbar feature even exist 150 years ago? Ref.: http://www.paradiseofthesea.com/journal/?p=421
[Edited on 2011-4-7 by bryanmckenzie]
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness.”
-Mark Twain
Samuel Langhorne Clemens (November 30, 1835 – April 21, 1910)
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ramuma53
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bryanmckenzie
(1) You mention the East Cape. With respect to title problems, please elaborate on the proposed (crazy) Cabo Cortes project in Cabo Pulmo and the huge
chunk of land there; I know about the utter lack of water and the significant environmental catastrophe this project would cause. Ref.: http://www.cabopulmovivo.org/
South Baja has both kind of problems, Title defects and Ejido land defects:
In south Baja we have Colonial Titles that cover most of South Baja and when you look up the Title chain, you find one of those titles and those
titles are worthless today.
Why? Because those titles are not full private property titles, those are more like a concession, because they carry a set of conditions that have to
be continually met to continue existing and in case you fail to met them for 3 years, they just disappear, among those conditions are:
The whole colony must exist.
The Colonial must obey the Colony rules and meet requirements continually.
The Colonial must exploit the land as authorized by the SRA and REPORT THE EXPLOITATION EVERY YEAR.
In 1992 those titles disappeared and were exchanged for Full National Land titles, but this apply only for the ones that were being exploited
according to the law, those that had previously failed and disappeared, were not.
As a legal consequence, any property based on one of those titles are groundless and are basically National Land that you must purchase from the
Nation through the National Land office.
Ejido Land is the same in the whole Baja, almost all the ejidos have Virtual executions and in a legal consequence upheld by the Supreme Court, they
have no land at all in a legal way and in consequence they cannot sell any land.
(2) You mention Maravia Country Club Estates north of La Paz; yet another huge chunk of land already being developed. Please elaborate on specific
title problems. Ref.: http://www.maraviacountryclubestates.com/
Maravia that belong to an Englishman named Curtis, based its property rights exactly in a Colonial title, but this is a nightmare case, because the
National Land office, sold that land to another person 20 years ago, and the title are ready to being issued, but I know deals are being made For
Maravia to purchase the land, from the actual owner Maria Elizabeth Espinoza Montańo from Los Cabos; they are covered by First American Title
insurance, but with a lot of small print that include exception if there are title defects and that mean, that no title coverage exist there.
The actual title cover Cachimba, Azul and II and Coyote because it cover 2370 Has.
ADVICE, NOT TO BUY UNTIL DUST SETTLE.
(3) And there is another Maravilla south of Todos Santos also being planned. Since you mention Todos Santos has title problems, does this apply here
also. Ref.: http://www.maravillabaja.com/resort.htm
I did not mention that Todos los Santos has problems, because there are some titles that are legal, also some Colonial titles that are not and some
very old titles out of the 1876 1917 era that may be legal but are subjected to validation, there you have to check the exact case.
(4) And one last question ... what is the title status of a "sand spit" formed by water runoff in Bahia de la La Paz and a project-in-progress called
Paraiso del Mar? Did this sandbar feature even exist 150 years ago? Ref.: http://www.paradiseofthesea.com/journal/?p=421
Those projects have legal titles, because they had the wisdom to bring them to legal status, they were based on old titles and corrected their
situation. A lesson that must be learned in Rosarito.
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ramuma53
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I have been receiving a lot of questions, concerning La Puerta del Mar, in Rosarito, actually in Km. 54-55 Tijuana to Ensenada old road.
That land belong to Rosendo Vicotrio Victorio, the Venustiano Carranza town leader, he bought that land from the National Land office in 1994, but
latter, Banamex who has a Fideicomiso, managed for the Title to be voided, using a technicality, because during the procedure, it was not formally
notified and the title has been on the making since then.
Lately the Venustiano Carranza title, has been moving and investigations finished, the title will unavoidably be issued in a few of months, while
Banamex who voided the title because it argue that the title affect 20,000 m2 of its lands, will be formally notified and will have to show legal
proof, that the land covered by the Fideicomiso is not National Land (something immposible).
According to our investigation, Banamex and La Puerta del Mar, will lose the land, back to Rosendo Victorio, no way around that, because La Puerta del
Mar, is not even protected by the Banamex´s fideicomiso.
Banamex, voided the 970,000 m2 title, for its over position of 20,000 m2 only and that mean, the other 950,000 m2, have not been contested and are
solid and La Puerta del Mar is under those 950,000 m2.
La Puerta del Mar, was built after the title was voided, taking advantage, that at that time, the real owner, was not in position to legally defend
himself for lack of title, but as soon as the title is re issued, the land will be automatically back to him and since La Puerta del Mar is there, it
is also a Federal offense committed by the developers.
This is one of the best examples, for the Baja Developers irresponsibility and lack of honesty; there the Developers are the Lagos
group, related to the Yagues group. Also one of the best examples, that powerful and wealthy Mexicans, are not over the law and do not give any more
protection than a poor Mexican, because Lagos is one of the Wealthiest Mexicans in Baja and Yagues one of the most powerful politically guys, the kind
of guys who call the Baja Governor, to do their dirty work, but remember, that in Punta Banda, it was the Baja Governor´s cousin, the one who lost;
Mexico is law abiding country, it takes its time, but law prevail and will prevail.
This will be the second Punta Banda, but only the second of many, so buyers should be aware of this kind of problems in the making for years
and it is not fair that they, be kept in the dark until the problem explode on their faces.
The developer should not have sold houses to Americans in that development, built over National land that was already proved National Land and a title
issued but void, because that only mean, that it is National Land, that would be re titled to the owner again, sooner or later, but the buyers were
kept ignorant of the underlying problem.
The Developer, Grupo Lagos, built grounding its rights, over a title chain, that end in a Public Notary writing in 1959, where the Public Notary say,
in its legal writing, specifically that:
The bunch of people, claiming that he recognized the sale by Juan Machado to them, who was already dead, did not show any legal title and some of the
contracts were written over tortilla paper.
They did not show to him, any but any, official paper, showing Juan Machado as the legal owner.
The addition of all the sale contracts was an area over 200´000,000 m2 or 20,000 Has. Way over the 2500 Has. legal limit, while they claimed that Juan
Machado had a 5,000 Has title, but only claimed, because they showed no legal proof to him.
Also, he says in his legal writing, that to avoid a public problem, his legal writing would be recognized as a legal title. (He does not say,
recognized by who???)
That legal writing, is a joke, and give absolutely no property right, because Public notaries or in fact, absolutely NO public official, can give away
National land and the law specifically, since 1863, up to today, say, that any land appropriation obtained by any public official, would be void if
not done by the National Land office in a legal way and by paying the Nation, never free.
That mean, that La Puerta del Mar, is one of the worst cases and most similar to Punta Banda, that will have a similar ending and any American who
bought there, the best action he may take, is to ask for their money back, to the Lagos Group; please do not just sell the unit to another unsuspected
buyer, because you would be selling National Land and it would be a Federal Felony.
Other developments in the same situation, are the ones over Playa Encantada Km. 29.5 to 30, also waiting for a title to be issued on another name,
different to the developers and the two towers that belong to the Torres Chavert group ,also waiting for a title to be issued on another name, Popotla
where the Studios Baja were, are covered by another title on another name different to the ones who claim to be the owners.
As I say, this is only the tip of the iceberg, the developers have created, by keeping the buyers in the dark, while taking their money and most of
them, are American buyers.
Those are the worst cases, while there are many, who are on National land, but have no underlying National Land title, waiting to be issued, those may
just pay for the land and continue selling, those are the easy ones.
The easy ones are also resisting, because they do not want to pay the land to the Nation, but if they are selling the units, at a USD$3,500.00
dlls./m2, I do not see why, they cannot pay USD$100.00 dlls/m2, that the land legally cost, but you know wealthy and powerful people, they prefer to
spend a lot more fighting, than to just do the right thing and I do not care if they fight to the end of time, but they should not be putting
Mexico´s name in jeopardy to earn a little bit more.
[Edited on 4-8-2011 by ramuma53]
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
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ramuma53,
What about title to land (lotes) in Loreto that was sold by Fonatur? Does the purchaser of Loreto lots from Fonatur have good title?
[Edited on 4-8-2011 by MitchMan]
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ramuma53
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MitchMan
The Federal Government took care of that, before giving that land, to Fonatur and from them to the now owners.
This mean, that the titles issued by them are good forever and if you look at the title chain, you will find a National Land title legaly issued by
the Federal Government.
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
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Yahoo! Thanks, ramuma53.
If I may impose upon you, sir. If a person owns land in south La Paz, say in Chametla or Centenario that was once upon a time ejido property, but say
a Mexican citizen bought a lot ten years ago and built a house on it and then sold it to an American a few years ago, what condition might the title
that American has be? That is, if the American bought it via a fideicomiso with American title insurance on it, might that title be in trouble? If
so, any suggestions as to what the American can do to fix a title problem?
Very grateful for any light that you may be able to shed on this "hypothetical" problem.
I am staring at my computer right now, and I am not blinking.
[Edited on 4-8-2011 by MitchMan]
[Edited on 4-8-2011 by MitchMan]
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wessongroup
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blink... your eyes will dry out.... or flies will land
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